Teenagers with no value for life and no care for repercussions - **Read OP**

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644858#Comment_119644858

Ballyfermot does not need to import scumbags we have plenty here. Your delusional if you think otherwise. Seemingly the kid in the car was a 14 year old local and well know to the gardai.

I don't think people here are calling everyone who lives there scum, but there are a lot scumbags who live in Ballyfermot/cherry orchard it is a fact. Do you know how I know?...I live there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644888#Comment_119644888

All sounds workable. What the actual ultimate solutions can or should be are definitely out of my intellectual area and above my pay grade. So I tend to not get into discussions about actual solutions because I know myself I do not know what I am talking about. But at the same time I do know a lack of nuance and over simplification when I see it too. And there is a lot of that going on with the simple "auto jail time will deter them" thinking we sometimes see in posts here. That person who decided to ram the police car in the video above - I have no deep expectation that automatic jail time would deter them. It may even incentivize them in the way the Two Norries describe.

I see some people shouting for "facilities" too. I agree with that but it also too simplistic. Throwing money and facilities is not a bad thing but it is not a solution either. My instinct is that whatever the solution turns out to be - it will be a complex holistic set of solutions with interplay and nuance.

I find myself thinking often about the group of kids I took on near my home. Written off by many locals I spoke with as irredeemable scum. I contrived to get into an altercation with them. I dominated. Then I basically did a rendition of the Matrix scene where Morpheus asks Neo "How did I beat you?" where I moved from fighting them for real - to showing them what they did wrong. Then over time I built a relationship with them where I started training them Jujitsu and a few other arts and got some other contacts I know to start training them other things. We jokingly called it a Jedi Acadamy because we were pretty much teaching them most of the real skills of a Jedi and ways to emulate the skills that were not real (like magic to replace the force).

And these kids were transformed. Really transformed. They went from kids who were actually accosting and physically intimidating little old ladies to being kids who go to the houses of little old ladies to do their garden for free, bring them shopping, listen to them talk about the old days, make sure they are warm enough and safe and sorted - before going home and "getting after it" in the gym and their school work and their work outs and their training.

What did I bring that "facilities" didn't or that threats of legal reprucussions and ankle bracelets wouldn't? I honestly do not know. I do not even know if I could repeat it. Was it a once off or did I do something that would actually work? My best guess was that I gave them as an adult something that the adults in their life failed to either because they did not care to (certainly in the case of one of the sets of parents I met who literally reminded me of the Teacher visiting the parents in Rhold Dahls Matilda only worse.) or the demands of modern life caused them to fail to. And possibly one of the most precious and important gifts we as humans have to give other humans. My time.

Varik

Getting rid of concurrent sentencing would be a start, before anything else just do that much and see the scum actually staying in prison.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644960#Comment_119644960

I find myself thinking often about the group of kids I took on near my home. Written off by many locals I spoke with as irredeemable scum. I contrived to get into an altercation with them. I dominated. Then I basically did a rendition of the Matrix scene where Morpheus asks Neo "How did I beat you?" where I moved from fighting them for real - to showing them what they did wrong. Then over time I built a relationship with them where I started training them Jujitsu and a few other arts and got some other contacts I know to start training them other things. We jokingly called it a Jedi Acadamy because we were pretty much teaching them most of the real skills of a Jedi and ways to emulate the skills that were not real (like magic to replace the force).

I know it is just because you are obviously a very modest person and you don't want the attention, but everyone knows that that that interaction/intervention was famously caught on CCTV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXA9TwUMWPw

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644960#Comment_119644960

Yeah look part of it, is any one of us commentating (and i'm sure some did), if we grew up in the most disadvantaged areas in ireland like Cherry ORchard, what would we be doing? many of us would be doing the same. its a hugely complex issue.

And yes small ripples like your example is something.Fair play. Its too big and complex an issue obvs to solve.

Basically all anglo sphere countries have these issues of anti social problems. there is probably no solving it ever. so it comes down to managing it. there will always be the haves and have nots, and areas of disadvantage. Even places that pretend they don't have them or the media at least does, do. Sweden has ghettoes, Switzerland and many other social paradises. Every single place in capitalist and communist society has a person less well off. Its a human construct. one that will never be solved unlesss we invented unlimited energy/abundance.

Jailing the two kids ramming the car (which won't happen) won't deter anybody. Fining a parent their social welfare or wage isn't going to bring them onto your side either. We wouldn't have enough officers or welfare officers to engage each and every one of the problematic people in that video.

Going in with the riot squad will be a meaningless show of force.

Theres no easy answers.

Yet i still think jail is our only effective way of punishment in some cases. Its punishment for punishments sake. Ideally it should be about rehabilitation, but as above thinking they're won't be depravation, thats not living in the real World.

I would like to see tagging myself.

Atm right now Ire is still just about fluking it and is relatively safe and ordered. I'd give it about 8-10 years and i think we'll be goosed.

bluedex

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644860#Comment_119644860

This is a parody account right?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645001#Comment_119645001

"There but for the grace of god go I" as the old saying goes. Hope I quote it accurately. Many of us would be just as bad if we grew up in the same situations with the same inputs or lack of inputs into our world. So it's very easy for some on a thread like this to hit back and high horse how they are the cream of society and these kids are "scum". I certainly understand where such people are coming from emotionally - but I wonder if they have engaged anything but their emotion in it?

I do not know a lot about tagging or what it achieved or why to be honest. But if Jail time is an incentive to some people because they can wear it as a badge of honor and respect when they get out - is tagging not a bit similar too? Would that 14 year old not be walking around with his leg tag as a badge of honor as a testament to the time he had the "ball" to ram a Garda car and stand up to "the man". A symbol that he is someone not to be messed with and demanding of respect?

I guess tagging as with any "solution" has to be part of a holistic whole. Unlike you I am a little more optimistic that solutions exist and are attainable. Partly but not wholly driven by my own set of anecdotes of having actively achieved it myself. Like you however I am less optimistic we can push an entire society in whatever direction is required to actually attain it. Despite the absolutely wonderful outcome of what I did of which I am proud to this day - I certainly would not recommend a single person try it like I did. I was dumb and younger than I am now. I could have gotten myself or one of them hurt or killed or anything. In an alternate reality there is probably a world where I am lying in a jail cell or a hospital because of that day. But certainly as someone who did stand up and do something - I find I have little respect for the people who yell in threads like this that the people who stood back and did nothing are somehow "cowards". They are likely anything but. As someone who did do something - I can certainly understand the people who do not.

I do find the conversations about what prison is "for" very interesting though. Clearly many (most?) people think its for punishment and retribution. Others think it's for rehabilitation and care both for the perpetrator and society. I fall more into the latter by far I think.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644706#Comment_119644706

Attempts to use violence to stop violence can quickly bring charges or court cases against the would be hero.

"self defence" is not, despite its name, restricted to defending yourself. There would be no criminal liability for the use of force in such a scenario, regardless of whether you injured the perpetrator or not. To escape conviction, you would just need to convince the court that any force you used was reasonable given what you believed the circumstances to be at that time.

The legitimate excuse for a member of the public not intervening would be that you don't know whether all the others there are likely to intervene against you. There is however no legal obligation to intervene. The owners of the shop could perhaps be found negligent but that is a different matter.

Yes and many people would tend to avoid a situation where they have to prove their innocence rather than be proven to be guilty. And the people who would shout "coward" at them for this - I tend to suspect would act no differently were they not merely brandishing their keyboard as a sword.

As I said before - as someone who actually did stand up and do something - I find I have more not less empathy for those who do not.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645087#Comment_119645087

A quick peruse of their posting history will answer that question in the affirmative for you.

walshb

Part at the problem is that people are afraid to speak out too strongly these days and call a spade a spade. Afraid of being accused of tarnishing whole areas.

Even our Justice Minister and her what happened was unacceptable behavior.....

FFS, put a bit of bloody meaning and passion and accuracy into your words. It was disgraceful criminal behavior by thugs, that we will fight and not tolerate.

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645087#Comment_119645087

Been hijacking similar threads for years spouting the same nonsense, can't believe they still get bites.

SAMTALK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644879#Comment_119644879

I would imagine the bystanders using the phones would be in like a shot to help their friend from the big bad security man !

If somebody is armed with a weapon why should the security guard get involved whilst unarmed. He's probably on shite wages and if this went to court he would most likely see the 2 involved walk free

I would strongly disagree with blaming a soft society for half the rise in anti social behaviour

it's their fault for acting like scum, nobody elses ! It's not society that is the problem, it's not the guards that is the problem

It is the people who behave like this and the judicial system which doesnt punish the for their behaviour

walshb

Our Justice minister on twitter and her unacceptable, and wait for it, disrespectful behavior.

Imagine being the Gardai that were faced with that, and yo read that this is how the Justice Minister is describing what happened.

Jequ0n

Why would anyone try to get involved with something like the Dame Street attack? The two delightful ladies are clearly members of the same social circle.

Let them sort it out amongst themselves.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645001#Comment_119645001

Good post and I would have to say I agree with you.

The problem is multi-faceted.

1. Personal responsibility - teens in general seem to think they are beyond the law , untouchable , dont have to answer for their actions or face any repercussions for those actions.
2. Parental responsibility - where are the parents in all this? When I was a teenager I was terrified of what my parents would have done if I got into any sort of trouble - that doesnt seem to exist any more.
3. The justice system - lenient sentencing, lack of support for the garda when they do arrest someone, offenders with 100s of convicitions - no wonder the kids feel untouchable.
4. The lack of respect for the garda - again growing up we were terrified of the garda , terrified of being put in a garda car and being brought home. Again this seems to be gone in youths today.

How to fix it?

It has to start at home. I know you said parents dole, wages etc being taken wont help but I do feel if parents were made to pay fines for crimes their kids committed it might help just a bit - when the parents cant buy their 20 john player blue or their bag of dutch gold it might make them sit up and think.

The kids need education and Im all for a class or classes being added to the schools curriculum from junior infants right up to teach them the norms of society.

The justice system needs a complete overhaul - no more concurrent sentencing, multiple conviction offenders need locking up for a long time. First time offenders need to be diverted from the criminal justice system to try and not get them to reoffend. Electronic tagging needs to be introduced with strict curfews for those tagged with heavy sanctions for breaking those curfews.

Lastly some Garda need personality transplants. Their is a sense among some that they are to be obeyed with an iron fist. Some of them have lost all sense of humanity and are akin to tyrants. That attitude is not going to work with these troubled teenagers. They need to have a bit of compassion in dealing with these troubled kids. Proper community policing is the way forward.

If all the above fails then lock them up and remove them from society for a long time whether that be for punishment or rehabilitation.

And fair play TAX - its good to see that Im not the only one who thinks these lads need to be give a chance...In a past life I used to do something similar. I used to take on young lads for apprenticeships (motor trade) and work experience from a residential home in the city centre - lads who hadnt a hope of ever getting a job. Took on 3, 2 worked out and finished their time. One ended up in Mountjoy - there was actually a thread about him here a long time ago and him doing something similar to what went on in cherry orchard- Hes the one I always regret not getting through to, to be honest. Id like to see more business owners give a chance to young troubled teens.

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645088#Comment_119645088

Many kids grow out of anti social behaviour naturally, and then there is a portion that will progress to criminality. People sound like this is a new phenomenon, but its not, Ballyfermot in particular had a joyriding epidemic during the 80s. I know many lads who acted as those kids did and then as they matured a bit they met a partner, or got a job, or simply grew out of it and never committed more crimes. Your story does have a great point though, the kids weren't punished harder for being the way they were, at that age the kids need a second and maybe a third chance, not to be punished harder with longer sentences, I'm actually amazed when people suggest tougher punishments for crimes, I mean can anyone even publish any study of anywhere in the world of modern society where such has decreased crime rates?

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647542#Comment_119647542

We want tougher punishments because we care about the victims. If their in Prison then for the time of their sentence they cannot commit more crime. If you give a joyrider a 2nd chance its possible that the next time he could cause an accident seriously injuring or killing somebody.

Quitelife

The percentage of the population that are scumm is increasing exponentially as they have larger families to maximise benefits for mammy and daddy to use on drugs and alcohol.

family in our village where mother and father never worked who had 8 kids and they now have something like 8 each meaning we have one family of 64 people unemployed ( many of them classified as disability to camouflage unemployment figures )

their neighbours who both worked their socks off and paid their way mortgage etc only had 2 children because that’s all they could afford to provide for doings things straight Those two children got jobs but like their parents can only afford to have 2 kids financially so there’s 4 workers in their family vs the 64 unemployed who are all into petty crime to supplement the welfare .

great country

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647542#Comment_119647542

Unfortunately I can't shake your hand but this is a great, sensible, post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647995#Comment_119647995

The Yanks did the same in the early 90s with their 'Crime Bill' and it fucked itself up for generations.

3/4 of American prisoners released are back in jail within five years.

"Soft on crime Norway" meanwhile have the best recidivism rate in the world.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647446#Comment_119647446

Great couple of posts there and sum up a lot of what I’ve been trying to say for years on these types of issues.

I think your points 2 and 4 are linked. If the parents don't have a good relationship with Gardai then they’ll push back. Why they don’t have a good relationship Gardai can be a multitude of reasons.

We hear the line thrown out that there are good, honest, hard-working people in Cherry Orchard and that the type of scumbagery witnessed on Monday night is by a minority who are terrorising the neighbourhoods. That could well be the case but this applies to Gardai as well. Most guards are bang on and they do their jobs exceptionally well. Not all of them are, though. All it takes is one heavy-handed, unnecessarily hostile guard and everyone else’s reputation is tarred with the same brush and then generations of apathy towards the police in a particular neighbourhood begins. I’m not saying this is deservedly so, I’m just putting out there what the issues are and the complexity around them.

Prison isn’t a deterrent, and turning them into glorified concentration camps won’t make them a deterrent either. It always baffles me to see this narrow-minded rhetoric of just f*cking them all in prison will solve the problem. In this incident, it’s reported that it was off the back of two other gang members being imprisoned. Heavy-handed law enforcement doesn’t work and it has never worked. Saying this doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be punished accordingly or should be allowed to rack up 10s of convictions without a custodial sentence, never mind hundreds, but any custodial sentence should be used to try benefit prisoners in many cases, not torture them. If someone has piled up a lot of theft convictions but they have a drug/alcohol addiction (and thus no money for anything else so they steal), then treat the drug addiction in prison. If using prison as a means of torture was adopted like some want it to be here, then they’d want that person to just rot and not have the root cause (the addiction) treated. Many people can pick up a number of convictions and benefit from a prison sentence because their rehab in there went so well and they can then move on with their lives.

Many prisoners can’t. They’re released and they’re back to the same sh*t over and over again. Within that cohort, there are likely some that try to get their sh*t together, but they can’t get a job because employers can’t look past their criminal record. In some ways that’s understandable, but on the flip side you’ve someone who did all this work on themselves while inside and when they come out, society won’t give them a chance and there’s only one way they’re going there.

Moving back to the topic at hand, for kids who may have apathy towards the guards along with their families, prison won’t work. Heavy-handing policing won’t either. A lot of problems could be diminished a good bit by more community policing. Guards who live in the area but are there to keep everyone safe and to be a friendly face. Having guards coming from Ronanstown to come into Cherry Orchard to arrest them and beat them (as some suggested they should do in this thread) isn’t going to change anyone’s attitudes. Even community policing won’t solve all the problems, but it would certainly solve a good deal of them in my opinion. Kids also need role models and an understanding that there is something out there for them but they grow up seeing everyone in their area struggling to keep food on the table - except those involved in crime.

I know there are plenty who won’t read the whole post who think I’m some sort of bleeding heart who wants scumbags to get away with it and just let them be kids. I’m far from it. There are big problems now. However, I can acknowledge that and also understand some of the deep-rooted issues in these areas which give rise to all of this. Both factors can be true, it doesn’t always have to be one or the other yet for some reason if you suggest that prison and heavy-handed law enforcement doesn’t work then you’re soft or whatever you’re having yourself.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119648087#Comment_119648087

America has no proper social welfare system to fall back on so criminals there don't really see an alternative. Jail is not a perfect solution but it's better than doing nothing. Those joyriders had fun the other night, they will likely have more fun the next time they do it.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119648092#Comment_119648092

It's not narrow minded, prison is a solution. It's not a great solution but a poor solution is better than no solution. Also when people say they want harsher prisons I think this comes more from the frustration of our lenient legal system rather than thinking it's a good idea.

Signore Fancy Pants

There needs to be balance to it.

Rehabilitation is ideal, though the net is as wide as you want it to be. What requires rehabilitation exactly? There may be a multitude of things...family relationships...addiction...boredom...mental health issues...etc.

In the mean time, like it or not, deterrence is required. There's little to no deterrence in the belief that AGS can do little to you, and the court system is like a fisherman who keeps throwing you back after catching you.

A second/third chance for a young lad is already happening. If you have 20+ convictions for breaking the law, then you have had your chances.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119648273#Comment_119648273

It can be a solution. I even explained that later on in my post.

The narrow-mindedness is more about those who think making prison a deterrent is going to fix the problem. It won’t. If people are going to prison (which many should when they commit crime) then it should be beneficial for them, not something that causes more hostility towards the law and the justice system.

Lenient sentencing is frustrating. I absolutely get that. I think people should remember though is that there are hundreds of cases before the courts every day (beit criminal or civil) and when the media writes about one like that, it’s designed to piss people off and get clicks, which then leads to those people to have zero faith in the judicial system.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119648309#Comment_119648309

Perfect example of my last paragraph which you clearly didn’t read.

Northernlily

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119646754#Comment_119646754

Also our Justice minister on twitter today saying Fine Gael are the party of law and order and crime is down and communities are safer.

Ffs, she's away with the fairies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119648179#Comment_119648179

But Norway has a better welfare system than us yet people say that we're a "soft touch".

So what are Norway?

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119648325#Comment_119648325

More should be done to stop drugs getting into prisons as part of a plan to deal with drug addicted prisoners. Rehabilitation would be great but this costs a lot of money and is not guarenteed to work.