Teenagers with no value for life and no care for repercussions - **Read OP**

Beechwoodspark

I have banged the drum on a number of times on boards but basically

Tl:dr prison is waaaaaay too soft

We need proportionately long prison sentences

No PlayStations!! no TVs!! very limited food offering

Work farms and factories

Proper sentences

People coming out of prison for serious sentences should be “bet to the ropes” of life. Absolutely beaten down and chastised.

So that they can never again threaten law abiding tax paying citizens

RulesOfNature

thomil wrote: »

Source for that German "authority", please? More precisely, where in the StGB (German Crimincal Code) or StPO (German Criminal Proceedings Code) is that laid out? I'm German myself, have worked in the security industry over there, and am certified as per Paragraph 34a GewO (German Commercial business Code) and am even certified to bear firearms as per Paragraph 7 WaffG (German Firearms Code), and I've never heard of any of this.
While German police forces are decentralised, they are all subject to stringent oversight, and any such event that comes out will have significant consequences for the police officers involved. Law enforcement does most definitely NOT have carte blanche in Germany.

As for the topic at hand, basically there are three issues that need to be sorted as far as I can see:

Strict but fair mandatory sentencing guidelines for violent offences. None of this "statement of character" BS or whatever it is called that I see so often, that is far too easily abused. Suspended sentences should be reserved for minor first offenders, and should be tied to draconian conditions

A much more thorough approach to resocialisation of offenders. This seems to be almost non-existent in Ireland at the moment, at least from my perspective. This is where the draconian conditions for suspended sentences should come into play, as one aspect should definitely be to remove them from their existing environment and any negative influence there. How that is carried out in practice, whether that's by transferring the offender, say from Cork to Donegal, monitoring their movement with electronic tags, restricting or monitoring all their message and communications, or maybe a combination of all of these, during the time of the suspended sentence, is above my pay grade, but it is certainly an approach that should be considered.

Finally, there's the thorny issue of repeat offenders. There will need to be long-term accommodation solutions for those, ideally separate from the prison system. In Germany, there's the concept of "Sicherungsverwahrung" or preventive detention, as outlined in Paragraph 66 of the German Criminal Code. This allows offenders who upon their release would still be a significant risk to society to be incarcerated as long as he remains a threat. This only applies to violent or sexual offenders, as well as some severe cases of drug offences and can in theory be indefinite. In Germany, this preventive detention is reserved to facilities that are separate from prisons and more suited for long-term accommodation and is also subject to regular reviews and psychological assessments, but in general, this is an approach that Ireland should consider.

One thing that will not work is either enabling police violence or somehow reducing the access to legal representation or legal aid. Equal access to the law for everyone is one of the most profound human rights overall, as this empowers citizens to stand up and fight for their rights regardless of financial resources, rather than simply being a victim and a doormat for others to trample on. I know from my own country's history what happens when this option is taking away, and as far as I'm concerned, those that agitate for the removal or restriction of free legal aid are no better than the anti-social elements that are the subject of this entire thread! They're just as determined to beat down anyone they see as inferior as a group of teenagers ganging up on a victim, they just use different tools. The aim is the same!

You fell for the propaganda, as many Germans have. Read your post, and see how you've over-abstracted a material issue (that is, feral teenagers) and attached it to human rights and socioeconomic issues, without actually giving a pragmatic solution. In the streets of Dublin you will be beaten to the ground before you can say 'Enable equal access to law for all citizens!'

Anyway I suggest recontextualizing every issue you see for what they are, rather than falling for the ourobourus-like quagmire of theoretical philanthropy.

When a teenager from Tallaght squares up to you on the Luas what do you think goes through his head?:

A.) I am a victim of socioeconomic forces beyond my control even so I must be responsible for my criminal actions

or

B.) This guy will crack my head if I start shlt. I'll back off.

The answer is neither. But I can tell you right now option B. is a more effective deterrent. A crack to the head will solve the issue much more than some abstract legislation about cutting off their estranged parents' social welfare by 12% per 8 penalty points or whatever obfuscated nonsenses the other guy was talking about.

Witcher

Floppybits wrote: »

They would be in prison while doing. Bus them to where they need to be, have the guards watch them and then bus them back to prison.

You still haven't addressed the main stumbling block here...what if they refuse? Will there be floggings in lieu?

Fandymo

RulesOfNature wrote: »

In countries like Italy, Spain and Germany the police (and private citizens) have the implicit authority to pull youths aside and beat them for misbehaving. No paper work, no charges, just a few cracks to set them straight. A sudden and painful repercussion is more effective than these abstract legislations.

Exactly, Spanish, Italian or Greek police will crack you with a baton without even thinking of it if you act the maggot with them. Give AGS the power to crack anyone being abusive, non-cooperative with their baton. Keep the children’s allowance, but give it as a tax credit.

Fandymo

TheBoyConor wrote: »

It all boil down to this....

If you want stiff punishment for crimes, you have to build more prisons and get more prison staff.
New prisons, staff, and pensions are very very expensive. You'll have the likes of BAM tendering for them remember.
If we want all that we will have to pay for it which means more tax and less money for other things.
There are no votes to be had for more taxes and prisons, because it doesn't fill potholes and doesn't deliver any local benefits to the vast majority of constituencies. Also, no-body wants to have a prison built near them.
No political party will advocate for prisons because of the above reasons.
Therefore there will be no prisons, and no way to significantly tackle juvenile crime.

And sure, we are not the only ones so it is not an irish problem. The fins have it too and they are scandanavian.
I think it is just part of living in a big urban area. It goes with the territory.

The only thing that kept young fellas in check years ago was the fear.
The fear of ending up in an industrial or reformatory school run by sadistic christian brothers.
the fear of getting a your jaw broken by a clout from a big tough Guard like Lugs Brannigan when he'd catch you
the fear of being beaten asunder by your alcoholic father when he got home from the pub penniless to find out you did something.

All those things are gone now. So there is no control on young fellas who are disposed towards trouble.

How much would a new prison cost vs the revolving door legal fees, Garda court time saved, etc?? We’d recoup the cost in a year or two. Nonsense argument.

L1011

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I have banged the drum on a number of times on boards but basically

Tl:dr prison is waaaaaay too soft

We need proportionately long prison sentences

No PlayStations!! no TVs!! very limited food offering

Work farms and factories

Proper sentences

People coming out of prison for serious sentences should be “bet to the ropes” of life. Absolutely beaten down and chastised.

So that they can never again threaten law abiding tax paying citizens

Because countries with prisons like this have absolutely no recidivism at all, of course...

Fandymo

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Fringe parties who will never hold any away in a government.
People shouldn't be eating their vote on fringe parties.

Yeah, sure what sway have the Greens over this government???

Witcher

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I have banged the drum on a number of times on boards but basically

Tl:dr prison is waaaaaay too soft

We need proportionately long prison sentences

No PlayStations!! no TVs!! very limited food offering

Work farms and factories

Proper sentences

People coming out of prison for serious sentences should be “bet to the ropes” of life. Absolutely beaten down and chastised.

So that they can never again threaten law abiding tax paying citizens

People that suggest 24hr lockdowns, no tvs and gruel for dinner in prisons would do well to read this thread by a serving prison officer;

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=93183950

Fandymo

Witcher wrote: »

People that suggest 24hr lockdowns, no tvs and gruel for dinner in prisons would do well to read this thread by a serving prison officer;

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=93183950

How about we start by running prisons like prisons. No drugs. No booze. No smoking.

Floppybits

Witcher wrote: »

You still haven't addressed the main stumbling block here...what if they refuse? Will there be floggings in lieu?

Leave them to rot in a cell then.

Witcher

Floppybits wrote: »

Leave them to rot in a cell then.

No answers so, grand.

There was a video posted here back not so long ago of a middle aged woman walking unaccompanied by the canal getting shoved into the water by a gang of feral teens for what basically looked like the sheer craic of it.

When I expressed the opinion that the people who did it, clearly identifiable by the way, should be charged with attempted murder since they made no effort whatsoever to pull the woman out of the water and just stood over her mocking her with their phones and not caring if she could actually swim or not, I got shouted down by people who thought it was all bit of a harmless prank.

The problem here is the monetisation of the legal system. When your options consist of
A) lock your man up for 8, 9, 10 years,
or collect a check for €5,000 every time he walks back in and out the court room door every few months you know you're in trouble.

Richard Hillman

It has been mentioned many times before but the youth diversion scheme gives them constant get out of jail free cards. There are no repercussions to their actions. The current government want to extend it to age 24 from 18.

I'm not saying the current crowd are worse than back in my day because the scrotes in my area when I was younger were sent to prison for some absolutely horrific crimes. But the difference between back then and now is that back then the scumbags hung in small groups and ran from the garda when they came. The gangs now are far bigger and when the garda come they stand there and mock them.

The youth diversion scheme has been one of the most socially damaging policies in Irish history

thomil

RulesOfNature wrote: »

You fell for the propaganda, as many Germans have.

Thank you for proving that you have NO idea what you're talking about. I've LIVED in that country, I've seen it with my own eyes! Honestly, I was expecting you to spout BS right from the first post but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. Turns out you're no better than the teenagers you're so disdainful about!

Beating someone into submission never works in the long term. It may result in a short term effect, but in long term, it will only trigger similarly violent reaction, that's been proven time again. That doesn't mean a non-violent approach, any police officers attack should definitely fight back when attacked, using all required force up to and including lethal force if necessary, but only to subdue & detain the attacker. Beyond that, any use of force is counterproductive and should rightly be punished.

In the longer term, only strict sentences coupled with rehabilitation and/or preventive detention will solve the issue, that's been proven time and time again. It may be a slow, tedious and decidedly unattractive process, but it is still far superior to "zero-tolerance" approaches as demonstrated in the US or other countries. Anything else is either window dressing or the fever dreams of picket-fence bullies.

Jinglejangle69

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Theres no evidence at all that these guys were all from deprived areas, particularly the Malahide incident which could have been locals.

They were chasing a guy after all, but did they do that across Dublin?



Yes, if he killed her. Life sentence. 16 is old enough.

Love this deprived area description.

These areas have more money and investment than most areas.

Not too mention numerous supports and subsidised housing.

Far from deprived.

Pandered too more like and that's the issue right there.

The Oort Cloud

Is there any possible way to remove this judge from his service? This judge is not doing the job he was given and it is causing more torment for folk every day he is in control of the so-called justice system. This judge needs to be removed asap... Judge Martin Nolan. There has to be a way of having him removed once and for all.

https://www.thejournal.ie/sallynoggin-jolly-court-garda-5429492-May2021/

RulesOfNature

thomil wrote: »

Thank you for proving that you have NO idea what you're talking about. I've LIVED in that country, I've seen it with my own eyes! Honestly, I was expecting you to spout BS right from the first post but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. Turns out you're no better than the teenagers you're so disdainful about!

Beating someone into submission never works in the long term. It may result in a short term effect, but in long term, it will only trigger similarly violent reaction, that's been proven time again. That doesn't mean a non-violent approach, any police officers attack should definitely fight back when attacked, using all required force up to and including lethal force if necessary, but only to subdue & detain the attacker. Beyond that, any use of force is counterproductive and should rightly be punished.

In the longer term, only strict sentences coupled with rehabilitation and/or preventive detention will solve the issue, that's been proven time and time again. It may be a slow, tedious and decidedly unattractive process, but it is still far superior to "zero-tolerance" approaches as demonstrated in the US or other countries. Anything else is either window dressing or the fever dreams of picket-fence bullies.

I clocked some young'un in the head who kept lighting the plants on fire near my estate. I clocked him again when he did it. He still hangs about but now he sets nothing on fire. Quick and tangible repercussions are what works.

You've fallen for the propaganda that every scumbag and thief out in the streets is the victim of socio economic forces that you've caused. Do me a favor, drop this fake altruism and take a long hard walk around Grand Canal, get mugged, get stabbed and tell me if you still have a bleeding heart.

I am also no surprised that your country is rife with internal strife. Groups of people are terrorizing your streets with rapes and muggings but the average German will much sooner go on online forums and talk about human rights than protect their own people.

Cracking heads will work. Its not a human rights issue. Its not a socio economic issue. It's a cvnt issue.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

I can't sit back and not jump in on this , it's a topic that does drive me up the wall.

Lived in Dublin most of my life and I agree it's not a nice place at all. **** thugs running the streets, luas , trains etc it's in most of Dublin. There doesn't seem to be much of a quiet place in Dublin anymore without hiding up a hill in killiney which isn't anywhere near possible for most people.

I've personally seen it and been close to it myself through work etc in Dublin where young scrotes will shout in your face, spit at you and try to mug you in broad daylight.

Around Dublin city I've seen strung out junkies all over the streets, scumbags shouting up and down O'Connell street looking for gear etc. I've witnessed stabbings , fights, people taking drugs, including needles use and so on. And of course we see the gardai fighting a uphill battle trying to get the place cleaned up. But they just don't have the power or the right court system behind them leading to people getting off the hook etc.

Nobody should really feel unsafe in their home county / town / city but yet here we are.

I've been living in a major city in North America for a while now, and the difference is black and white. I laugh now when people go on about guns etc but realistically I've never felt more safe walking down a street in peace.

Naturally enough being one of the few Irish in the company and so new here a 30 min meeting turns into an hour and a half talking crap but it's been interesting to hear what they had to say about Ireland (the few that were there)

A young couple went a few years ago for a visit to Dublin and they told me how they were harassed on the street, witnessed hoodlums steal the wheels of a car in broad daylight and also witnessed a stabbing. In his words it really ****ed them up and they didn't have much of an opinion of Dublin afterwards and were quite looking forward to going home.

Unfortunately thanks to these scumbags that's the image thats getting out, when they returned from their "vacation" of course their friends / family etc will ask and they will tell.

I've said this before in another thread but there needs to be a sweep, a fresh start to the court system and the gardai and what then can do and I think the only way is to come down really hard on it all.

On top of that I think they should not be rewarded for being long term unemployed and having kids, I think things need to be cut rather than increased. A system that was designed to help you get by if you're stuck for a few weeks is a lifestyle to these people and it's wrong. You shouldn't be able to get by like that.

I'll leave it there and say yes I'd be ashamed of Dublin coming from there, such a shame the place and more places around Ireland too have become like that, Ireland had the potential to be a wonderful green friendly tourist country but they screwed that up for everyone and now here we are.

RulesOfNature

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I can't sit back and not jump in on this , it's a topic that does drive me up the wall.

Lived in Dublin most of my life and I agree it's not a nice place at all. **** thugs running the streets, luas , trains etc it's in most of Dublin. There doesn't seem to be much of a quiet place in Dublin anymore without hiding up a hill in killiney which isn't anywhere near possible for most people.

I've personally seen it and been close to it myself through work etc in Dublin where young scrotes will shout in your face, spit at you and try to mug you in broad daylight.

Around Dublin city I've seen strung out junkies all over the streets, scumbags shouting up and down O'Connell street looking for gear etc. I've witnessed stabbings , fights, people taking drugs, including needles use and so on. And of course we see the gardai fighting a uphill battle trying to get the place cleaned up. But they just don't have the power or the right court system behind them leading to people getting off the hook etc.

Nobody should really feel unsafe in their home county / town / city but yet here we are.

I've been living in a major city in North America for a while now, and the difference is black and white. I laugh now when people go on about guns etc but realistically I've never felt more safe walking down a street in peace.

Naturally enough being one of the few Irish in the company and so new here a 30 min meeting turns into an hour and a half talking crap but it's been interesting to hear what they had to say about Ireland (the few that were there)

A young couple went a few years ago for a visit to Dublin and they told me how they were harassed on the street, witnessed hoodlums steal the wheels of a car in broad daylight and also witnessed a stabbing. In his words it really ****ed them up and they didn't have much of an opinion of Dublin afterwards and were quite looking forward to going home.

Unfortunately thanks to these scumbags that's the image thats getting out, when they returned from their "vacation" of course their friends / family etc will ask and they will tell.

I've said this before in another thread but there needs to be a sweep, a fresh start to the court system and the gardai and what then can do and I think the only way is to come down really hard on it all.

On top of that I think they should not be rewarded for being long term unemployed and having kids, I think things need to be cut rather than increased. A system that was designed to help you get by if you're stuck for a few weeks is a lifestyle to these people and it's wrong. You shouldn't be able to get by like that.

I'll leave it there and say yes I'd be ashamed of Dublin coming from there, such a shame the place and more places around Ireland too have become like that, Ireland had the potential to be a wonderful green friendly tourist country but they screwed that up for everyone and now here we are.

Well said. This man sees it from the reality of the streets.
Remember: According to the poster above scumbags are the victims and we must uphold their human rights (to stab and mug people).

Propaganda rots the brain of the receiver.

mossie

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Love this deprived area description.

These areas have more money and investment than most areas.

Not too mention numerous supports and subsidised housing.

Far from deprived.

Pandered too more like and that's the issue right there.

I know a guy teaching in a secondary school in a quiet provincial town. About 3 or 4 years ago he said he noticed a huge change in the attitude of first years, kind of an attitude of being untouchable and an arrogance that 12 or 13 years old shouldn't have. This was coupled with the parents attitude making teachers lives even harder than before. He says it's worse each year and he can't see himself being a teacher much longer. This isn't just an inner city / "deprived area" problem, maybe worse there but it's everywhere.

biko

biko wrote: »

It takes a village to raise a child.

If you see something, say something.

Yeah well nah, in a practical sense not gonna work with these scrotes.

Wait til they pull a knife on ya or harass the **** out of you.

thomil

RulesOfNature wrote: »

I am also no surprised that your country is rife with internal strife. Groups of people are terrorizing your streets with rapes and muggings but the average German will much sooner go on online forums and talk about human rights than protect their own people.

I hear that all the time yet I never see it when I'm back home. My parents didn't experience any of that while they were still alive either, despite living in an area that according to certain "alternative" political parties in Germany should be a second Afghanistan (Mannheim/Ludwigshafen and surroundings). And honestly, I trust my own eyes over what some internet nobody with an inferiority complex claims to be the truth.

RulesOfNature wrote: »

Cracking heads will work. Its not a human rights issue. Its not a socio economic issue. It's a cvnt issue.

As I said earlier, no better than the "feral teens" that you claim to be superior to. I'd like to continue our little intellectual duel, but it's become painfully obvious that you came to this fight unarmed. Maybe spend some time using your own head for a change instead of "cracking" others.

Oh, and don't bother replying to this.

walshb

xzanti wrote: »

The lack of regard for life among certain teenage groups is beyond frightening.

The video of the a woman being tripped and subsequently falling onto the train tracks in Howth will haunt me a long time.

Thank God she was pulled out without injury or death.

They knew exactly what they were doing. Pure, unbridled evil imho.

It's almost a competition among them to see how far they'll go to prove how scummy they are.

I heard about that one. Vile scum

Hope to go they caught.

And should be charged with attempted murder!

RulesOfNature

thomil wrote: »

I hear that all the time yet I never see it when I'm back home. My parents didn't experience any of that while they were still alive either, despite living in an area that according to certain "alternative" political parties in Germany should be a second Afghanistan (Mannheim/Ludwigshafen and surroundings). And honestly, I trust my own eyes over what some internet nobody with an inferiority complex claims to be the truth.



As I said earlier, no better than the "feral teens" that you claim to be superior to. I'd like to continue our little intellectual duel, but it's become painfully obvious that you came to this fight unarmed. Maybe spend some time using your own head for a change instead of "cracking" others.

Oh, and don't bother replying to this.

Ah yes. If I punch a feral teen to defend myself I am as worse as them.

Do you understand how deranged you sound?

Do you have any actual experiences dealing with these people in Tallaght or in the Red line?

Are you telling us Irish people, that if we punch back we might as well have pushed that Asian lady into the canal or stabbed that woman to death in the IFSC?

To anyone else reading: If its not obvious yet how propaganda severely warps your judgement and concept of self-preservation this it it. This German lad is literally saying that the scumbags are the victims and if we defend ourselves we might as well have stabbed those women to death. Is it any wonder that Germany is the way it is?

Antares35

biko wrote: »

If you see someone in trouble; help out. If you can't do that - ring the police, video the assault and hand video over to Garda.

I remember when I was assaulted, it was evening time but still daylight and the Luas was crammed as I mentioned. Lots of people on their way home from work etc. The only ones who stopped to help me were two homeless men. They chased the feral bint but couldn't catch her, and then they stayed with me until the guards came, have their details as witnesses etc. Everyone else just turned a blind eye. So, I don't think we can say it's all just one particular demographic or cohort of society because the only ones who helped me had little for themselves.

antgal23

Agree that the CJ system needs reformed so teens are made accountable

Similarly, cops do what they can but they are up against and the teens know it

My theory is the State don't want to pay to send people to prison, especially for stealing , selling small amounts of drugs, fighting - anti social behavior. That would explain why some people have 50 + convictions

Also, I had a run in with my nephew the other week. He was threatening my sister, selling Spice for a drugs gang run by adults and fighting with dymbells and knives. I visited him, explained to him x and y and he looked at me in a daze. I told my sister that kid has special needs as he had this look of non- comprehension.

She got him tested, he has ADHD, low IQ, ODD plus a few more.

HSE friend says ASD and related disorders has exploded in Ireland.

Beasty

No more posts encouraging violence, or else there will be threadbans and/or cards

RulesOfNature

Beasty wrote: »

No more posts encouraging violence, or else there will be threadbans and/or cards

I am encouraging self defense, not violence.

Beasty

RulesOfNature wrote: »

I am encouraging self defense, not violence.

Do not post in this thread again

Mad_maxx

KeepItLight wrote: »

Sweden has a x12 higher rape rate than Ireland

apples and oranges , Sweden sets the bar extremely low for the crime of rape