Teenagers with no value for life and no care for repercussions - **Read OP**

Tony EH

KeepItLight wrote: »

that is what the paper is referring to, not actual carrots.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is what many people don't seem to consider. Most of us know Dublin and the city center but this city is getting a name for itself from those been and gone. Only get away with it so long before the city earns a reputation and that effects tourism and businesses, ultimately Jobs. I mean Dublin must be quite intimidating for visitors who wouldn't know the place.

This is not a safe city and the authorities, judiciary and the gardai are to blame ultimately.

It's a national embarrassment the way we go about things.

Fully agree but I don't think we can stop this in time before Dublin does get a bad reputation and people stop visiting

I hear people say they had a choice between Ireland and Scotland for vacation and a lot more people than I thought actually chose Scotland to go to.

Let's not forget either the lads that held up the couple down by Guinness with a gun over a mobile phone.

That incident was reported in Ireland but you can be sure that the couple that were attacked told their story at home and made a few papers

KeepItLight

KeepItLight wrote: »

On a personal note, you have to understand that most people feel that rehabilitation is a secondary concern, and the primary concern is to get the criminal elements off the street.

How is it a personal note when you continue on to tell us what "most people" want?

Gardai can arrest all they want, but until we start building more prisons and imposing lengthy sentences once it gets into the courtroom, we can't pretend that we've tried this approach and failed, because we haven't.

Other countries have done it for us.

Why on earth we'd try something that has been an abject failure everywhere it has been implemented, is most definitely beyond my comprehension.

Sephiroth_dude

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Bring back christian brother industrial schools, unpredictably violent alcoholic fathers, and frustrated school masters fond of the leather, and we will see how tough these teenagers really are.

Do not post in here again.

Cilldara_2000

I assumed that was satire.

KeepItLight

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth we'd try something that has been an abject failure everywhere it has been implemented, is most definitely beyond my comprehension.

read the academic paper i shared if you are genuinely curious.

but then again, if you think jailing criminals is proven to be an 'abject failure everywhere it has been implemented', there's not much to discuss with you

Tpcl20

TrangiaCoffee wrote: »

People need to calm down. All they did was push a bicycle in the woman's direction. They didn't push or mean for her to fall under the train which was evident from the shocked reaction of one of the teens.

Teens are not getting more our of control, it's adults getting more bidchy.

They did something reckless which endangered a woman's life and could easily have killed her.

There needs to be a consequence for that.

Did you see the video which was taken the day after where they pull a woman holding a baby out of her car? One of them is the lad bollock-acting in the train station with the "shocked" reaction.

Clearly he didn't get that might of a shock if he's doing something equally reprehensible less than a day later.

Get Real

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, your solution is to build prisons, which do not act as a deterrent, and in order to do so, you want to cut welfare, which actually increases crime?


This is the trouble with this thread. It's awash with ideas that sound good in theory and look good written down, but in practice, in actual life, are absolutely cuckoo.

Norway has the lowest recidivism rate on the planet - their solution is not "BYGG FLERE FENGSLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Norway does have the lowest recidivism rate in the world, but not because they imprison less people than us. In fact, they imprison the same amount as Ireland roughly at 75 per 100,000 of the population. Ireland is 76 per 100000

Its how they implement programmes in prison, and also, the additional programmes for those not in prison, such as ankle trackers. Also, prisoners have to submit urine randomly for analysis for drugs. Whereas here, we don't have ankle trackers and prisoners aren't urine tested for drugs.

Ireland prison population 3,729 people

https://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2/#:~:text=There%20are%203%2C729%20people%20in,prison%20space%E2%80%9D%20was%20%E2%82%AC75%2C349.

3729÷4.9million = .00076

Norway prison population 3,933 people http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All

3933÷5.2million= .00075

So you're right, Norway has a lower recidivism rate, but not because they imprison less people, but because they use an array of tools, in addition to and in conjunction with, imprisonment.

Addition: Norway also has preventative detention. Yes, locking people up based on past offending, so that they can't commit further, hypothetical crimes, perhaps another reason for their low recidivism.

"Violent, repeat offenders within serious crime, offenders who are considered a danger to the lives and health of others and sex-offenders are usually amongst those sentenced to preventive detention"

https://www.domstol.no/en/the-criminal-court-proceedings/penal-sanctions/

Oh and from the first court date, to the finalisation of the case-2 weeks. In Ireland it'd be months of remands on free legal aid, while the offender is out on bail, racking up more offences.

In Norway, 2 weeks from start to end. No messing.

"The case will start with the prosecuting authority raising charges and sending the details and evidence to the District Court. The objective is to hear such cases as quickly as possible and the court therefore has to set a date for the main hearing within two weeks"


https://www.domstol.no/en/the-criminal-court-proceedings/types-of-cases/full-bench-trial/

archfi

Get Real wrote: »

Norway does have the lowest recidivism rate in the world, but not because they imprison less people than us. In fact, they imprison the same amount as Ireland roughly at 75 per 100,000 of the population. Ireland is 76 per 100000

Its how they implement programmes in prison, and also, the additional programmes for those not in prison, such as ankle trackers. Also, prisoners have to submit urine randomly for analysis for drugs. Whereas here, we don't have ankle trackers and prisoners aren't urine tested for drugs.

Ireland prison population 3,729 people

https://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2/#:~:text=There%20are%203%2C729%20people%20in,prison%20space%E2%80%9D%20was%20%E2%82%AC75%2C349.

3729÷4.9million = .00076

Norway prison population 3,933 people http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All

3933÷5.2million= .00075

So you're right, Norway has a lower recidivism rate, but not because they imprison less people, but because they use an array of tools, in addition to and in conjunction with, imprisonment.

Thanks for the stats and links.
Really interesting stuff.

TrangiaCoffee

TrangiaCoffee wrote: »

People need to calm down. All they did was push a bicycle in the woman's direction. They didn't push or mean for her to fall under the train which was evident from the shocked reaction of one of the teens.

Teens are not getting more our of control, it's adults getting more bidchy.

This post has pissed me off. The scrotes do not realise that their actions may have consequences. That in itself is a huge problem.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Overheal

kapisko1PL wrote: »

complete judiciary reform in this country.

I've been saying this for at least a decade on here. Considering how often in the US we see usually some big campaign or another for a reform, like healthcare or immigration, or infrastructure now, there hasn't really been loads of talk about a broad omnibus reform of the irish judiciary or sentencing enhancements etc. yet you continue to get reports of wild inconsistency from Irish courts, as well as difficult to fathom breadths of tolerance for convicted criminals exhibiting alarming recidivism

Strumms

TrangiaCoffee wrote: »

People need to calm down. All they did was push a bicycle in the woman's direction. They didn't push or mean for her to fall under the train which was evident from the shocked reaction of one of the teens.

Teens are not getting more our of control, it's adults getting more bidchy.

If we just accept it, we validate it as ‘ok’... then what next ?

All they did ? ALL ?

Nahhh there is a lack of parenting, and society is bearing the brunt.

Overheal

Strumms wrote: »

If we just accept it, we validate it as ‘ok’... then what next ?

All they did ? ALL ?

Nahhh there is a lack of parenting, and society is bearing the brunt.

Then, get to the bottom of why the parenting is lacking.

Strumms

Overheal wrote: »

Then, get to the bottom of why the parenting is lacking.

We did that with every assault, every crime ? we’d be shelling out billions for psychologists and social workers....

Aska

stoneill wrote: »

Parents of underage thugs should pay the fines and do the time for the runts they brought into the world.

Or how about the parents get their child allowances taken from them completely, what is it now 140 a month up to 18yrs? could be the simplest action as I assume any fines would be met with 3 euro a week repayments due to inability to pay BS stories, so to cut the allowance might cop some parents on

The Oort Cloud

There are no gardai any-more on the street as in regard to community gardai. The whole system is damaged beyond belief and I wouldn't be surprised if this government closed a few more garda stations down within more rural counties soon. It's like living in an episode of the twilight zone in this country when it comes to justice and garda presence. Get off the fecking computers doing data analysis and get out and do what you made an oath to do, to protect and serve, you (Gardai) your boss-head needs to apply and implement data managers and then you can get out on the beat and beat some **** down. It's like post-men/women that just say feck it, i'll just sit in the office and not post anything, sure what's the point.


The governmental system for justice and citizen protection needs to get its **** together fast, because if it doesn't start building a few new state of the art prisons then in ten years you will see some really bad stuff.

Del Griffith

Get Real wrote: »

Its how they implement programmes in prison, and also, the additional programmes for those not in prison, such as ankle trackers. Also, prisoners have to submit urine randomly for analysis for drugs. Whereas here, we don't have ankle trackers and prisoners aren't urine tested for drugs.

Not disagreeing with your post in general or the points you made but this is incorrect on both counts.

Ireland urine tests prisoners constantly, and has ankle tags for temporary release (doesn't use them often but does from time to time and has the option).

MadYaker

There seems to be an abundance of couples or single parents who have zero interest in actually being parents or raising children yet for some reason these people continue to have children anyway. If we could find a way to stop that it would go a long way.

FromADistance

MadYaker wrote: »

There seems to be an abundance of couples or single parents who have zero interest in actually being parents or raising children yet for some reason these people continue to have children anyway. If we could find a way to stop that it would go a long way.

It's telling that one needs a licence to own a dog and maintain all sorts of paperwork to house animals such as cattle but when it comes to the responsibility of bringing kids into the world, there are no such consequences. At the very minimum, people should have to complete a parenting course (per child) before being allowed claim childrens allowance. Of course this would mean the majority would have to suffer because of the minority but at least it might instill some sense of social responsibility in these people (maybe it's hope in vain but anyhow).

ThunbergsAreGo

MadYaker wrote: »

There seems to be an abundance of couples or single parents who have zero interest in actually being parents or raising children yet for some reason these people continue to have children anyway. If we could find a way to stop that it would go a long way.

And this is in all classes and walks of life.

People who would rather not be taken away from their glass of red / six cans / drug of choice then actually parent and know where their kids were.

Who would rather let them do what they want then enforce boundaries. And this isn't about the "6ft 16 year old" boundaries and parenting standards are set much earlier in life.

Its a lack of responsibility or ownership, a "it's someone elses problem" that seems to be increasing

km991148

FromADistance wrote: »

At the very minimum, people should have to complete a parenting course (per child) before being allowed claim childrens allowance.

Seems quite impractical. Not just putting/paying for the majority to have to attend (as you point out) but also if the parents in question can't/won't then forcing families into poverty won't do much to remedy the situation.

Needs to be something more far reaching and I think the money could be spent better.

thegetawaycar

It still hasn't got much of a mention in government, a few tweets maybe but then it turns to housing.
For some reason our media don't want to see anything done about criminality like this, the story on a fund buying up houses has had **** loads of coverage and discussions in the dail even immediate legislation drafting.

This? very little in comparison, get on to your local TD and raise it, ask what they are doing about it? 15 year old up for murder and on the same day robbing shops, sure boys will be boys. This issue will now be ignored again and the by-election will be all about housing again.

No idea why it can't be about both issues but the media are making it their business to prioritise 1 over the other.

fly_agaric

Tpcl20 wrote: »

They did something reckless which endangered a woman's life and could easily have killed her.

There needs to be a consequence for that.

Did you see the video which was taken the day after where they pull a woman holding a baby out of her car? One of them is the lad bollock-acting in the train station with the "shocked" reaction.

Clearly he didn't get that might of a shock if he's doing something equally reprehensible less than a day later.

Really (!?)...Saw that video...In any case he was likely worried about himself.
Brain-cells were probably working overtime. Really couldn't decide whether to do a runner immediately + potentially get away with it completely, or if that would look even worse if the person he pushed was maimed or killed by the train and he got caught later.

The justice system here is very, very lenient about the general "high-jinks the youth do be gettting up to" (robbing, vandalising and battering people to point of serious life changing injury) but doesn't quite just brush off manslaughter or murder as a bit of youthful fun yet.

Overheal

Strumms wrote: »

We did that with every assault, every crime ? we’d be shelling out billions for psychologists and social workers....

Hardly an actual cost projection though is it.

As opposed to billions to construct more prisons incurring what would then amount to at least a billion in annual operating costs.

1. There are 3,729 people in prison custody in Ireland (Feb 2021).
2. The rate of imprisonment in Ireland is approximately 73 per 100,000 of the general population (end of Dec 2020).
3. In 2019, the average cost of an “available, staffed prison space” was €75,349.
4. The overall daily average number of prisoners in custody in 2019 was 3,971 compared to 3,893 in 2018, an increase of 2%.
5. In 2019 there were 4,314 prisoners committed under sentence serving sentences of less than 12 months.
6. The majority of Irish prisoners have never sat a State exam and over half left school before the age of 15.
7. The average number of females in custody in 2019 was 170, a 3% increase on the 2018 average of 165.
8. The daily average number of female offenders in custody rose by 29% in the ten year period between 2006 and 2016.
9. As of October 2020, there are 47 people in prison slopping out, without in-cell sanitation.
10. As of October 2020, 1,714 (45%) prisoners were required to use the toilet in the presence of another prisoner.
11. As of October 2020, 1,964 (52%) prisoners were accommodated in single cells.
12. In 2019, there were 861 committals to prison for the non-payment of court-ordered fines, an 89.2% increase on the 2018 figure of 455.
13. Committals under immigration increased by 18% to 490 in 2019, from 414 in 2018.
14. The number of sentenced committals for road and traffic offences increased from 619 in 2018 to 662 in 2019.
15. Prisoners are 23 times more likely to come from (and return to) a seriously deprived area, compared to the least deprived areas. (O'Donnell et al., 2007)
16. In October 2020, of 728 restricted regime prisoners: 34 were Rule 62; 523 were Rule 63 (voluntary); 10 were Rule 63 (involuntary); 0 was Rule 64; and 161 prisoners were restricted due to COVID-19 infection control measures, Rule 103.
17. As of October 2020, 119 prisoners held on a restricted regime were aged 18-24. [Published data does not indicate the proportion of these held due to COVID-19 infection control measures.]
18. According to the October 2020 census of restricted regimes, there are 327 prisoners being held on 22+ hour lock-up. [Published data does not indicate the proportion of these held due to COVID-19 infection control measures.]
19. Committals under sentence of less than 3 months increased from 1,070 in 2018 to 1,552 in 2019.
20. On 30 November 2019, 780 prisoners were on remand.
21. As of December 2020, there were 479 sentenced prisoners aged 50+, 16% of all sentenced prisoners.
22. Over a third (35%) of all persons committed to prison in 2019 declared Dublin as their county of residence.
23. The number of people committed with a life sentence decreased from 21 in 2018 to 9 in 2019.
24. In 2011, over 70% of prisoners were unemployed on committal and a similar percentage self-report as not having any particular trade or occupation.
25. From 1999 to 2019, average numbers custody increased by 44% (2,763 to 3,971).

https://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2/#:~:text=The%20rate%20of%20imprisonment%20in,%2C%20an%20increase%20of%202%25.

FromADistance wrote: »

It's telling that one needs a licence to own a dog and maintain all sorts of paperwork to house animals such as cattle but when it comes to the responsibility of bringing kids into the world, there are no such consequences. At the very minimum, people should have to complete a parenting course (per child) before being allowed claim childrens allowance. Of course this would mean the majority would have to suffer because of the minority but at least it might instill some sense of social responsibility in these people (maybe it's hope in vain but anyhow).

That seems like a violation of human rights waiting to happen.

Strumms

Overheal wrote: »

Hardly an actual cost projection though is it.

As opposed to billions to construct more prisons incurring what would then amount to at least a billion in annual operating costs. .

we’d have 100% certainty that 100% of the violent offenders and assorted criminals while there will not be reoffending. The public are protected, guaranteed. Talking with a psychologist won’t achieve that.

According to the IRPT recidivism rates remain high at about 55.2%. Lessening the punishment and weakening the deterrent won’t do anything to that figure aside from send it higher.

Some people are just bad fûckers, doesn’t matter what way you dress it up.

begbysback

My dog is checking the paperwork as we speak

K.Flyer

Strumms wrote: »

According to the IRPT recidivism rates remain high at about 55.2%. Lessening the punishment and weakening the deterrent won’t do anything to that figure aside from send it higher.

I presume that figure is only for those who actually serve prison time.
What about those you keep getting suspended sentences, only to go out and carry on with their sh!tty ways as if nothings happened, which I suppose thats what happened to them, Nothing!
Under the current conditions I'll take that 45% as showing that prison is quite successful as a deterrent.
I'm willing to bet the bank that figure would increase greatly with more lengthy prison sentences and more prison spaces.
Yes, give those willing to change / rehabilitate the tools and education that they need, but as for the rest, get them off the streets quicker and for longer until they want to become a decent member of society.

11112

if you put 2 20 year olds in prison for 10 years. Maybe 1 reoffends and the other doesn't, at least the one who does reoffend will not be able to cause more offences in his 20s.

He might break a guy's jaw when he is 35 , which is better than breaking a guy's jaw when he is 25 and a second guy's jaw when he is 35.

retalivity

Not a teenager, but not far off it, they charged someone today with the murder of the elderly Asian guy at the flats on Cork st in Dublin last week.
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0506/1214212-murder/

This prick was actually living across from the road from the victim, and was only just released from prison for multiple offences:

https://www.longfordleader.ie/news/local-news/618145/six-weeks-for-man-who-stole-iphones-from-longford-students.html

22, 3 kids and only the 59 convictions, sure I guess there's hope for him yet...

Thelonious Monk

I was just at lidl and there were about 15 kids on bikes cycling around the car park shouting abuse at 2 Garda who were on foot trying to disperse them away from the shop, absolutely zero respect for them. I've often seen them hassling the security guard there and running in and out of the shop taking things.
This was just around the corner from Darndale so the kids are pretty bad there but still, do they really do this stuff in other European countries? I refuse to believe that. No f*cks given.
I can't say I've much respect for the Garda myself, we've all been to Europe and seen how the cops are there, our force is the most ridiculous looking police force I've ever seen, they command zero respect and even their uniforms look ridiculous.