F1 2021 Round 4 : Spanish Grand Prix

quokula

Burkie1203 wrote: »

One lap after Hamilton pitted for 2nd time they should have brought Max in. They had just enough of a window. Once he stayed out 2 laps, the race was decided.

They didn’t have enough of a window to do this, they’d have come out behind Lewis and they would be behind Bottas too making life even more difficult for them.

Max has pulled off some supreme qualifying laps and excellent race starts, but at every single track so far, once they’re racing in dry conditions, the Mercedes has had a pretty big performance advantage that has left them many strategic options with two fast cars that Max just doesn’t have when pushing the Red Bull to the absolute limit to keep up with them.

Widdensushi

Hamilton had too much pace, he was going to win either way.

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

What could/should they have done?

When Hamilton pitted the second time they could have pitted Max. This would most likely have give track position to Hamilton but at least Max would have had some chance. The strategy that Redbull went for resulted in Max having no chance, he couldn’t defend at all.

2011

2011 wrote: »

When Hamilton pitted the second time they could have pitted Max. This would most likely have give track position to Hamilton but at least Max would have had some chance. The strategy that Redbull went for resulted in Max having no chance, he couldn’t defend at all.

He would have had zero chance. The Merc had plenty of race pace in hand. To follow closely you need plenty of pace in hand. In the first stint before the tyres went off Hamilton was able to stay within DRS range for a while, he would have driven away from Verstappen.

recyclebin

Was there not a graphic on screen for at least two laps after Hamilton pitted where Verstappen could have pitted and still kept the lead? Whether they had the tyres to do it is the other question?

recyclebin

recyclebin wrote: »

Was there not a graphic on screen for at least two laps after Hamilton pitted where Verstappen could have pitted and still kept the lead? Whether they had the tyres to do it is the other question?

I commented at the time that it was nonsense. It had (I think) 1.7 second projected gap. Even though Hamilton had already made up the pre-pitstop gap.

MadYaker

Nice to see Ricciardo potentially settling into the car

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

He would have had zero chance. The Merc had plenty of race pace in hand. To follow closely you need plenty of pace in hand. In the first stint before the tyres went off Hamilton was able to stay within DRS range for a while, he would have driven away from Verstappen.

I don’t agree that he would have zero chance.
Max stopped a second time anyway. How could stopping earlier not have been a better tactic? Max finished up 17 seconds behind Hamilton.

Or better still Max could have stopped a second time before Hamilton did.

TheQ_Man

Inquitus wrote: »

Good point, wherever it will be it won't be Barcelona, and it won't be Monaco, that's got to have something going for it!

It was meant to be turkey 🇹🇷

Inquitus

TheQ_Man wrote: »

It was meant to be turkey ����

Aye I posted in another thread that Turkey is in doubt due to UK Travel Restrictions, not sure if anything has been confirmed on that one yet. Alot of people were bypassing restrictions flying from the Indian Subcontinent via Turkey to avoid quarantining which is why it was added to the UK Red List I believe.

flazio

I just want to leave this here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000vyy6
13 minutes in for the start of the race.
That's how you're supposed to call a race start.

chicorytip

Poor Bottas!! He seems to be suffering an extended mental breakdown. Merc should be finishing P1 and 2 every race, by a distance, given the superiority of the car. Thought Ol'Kimi did alright.

2011

2011 wrote: »

I don’t agree that he would have zero chance.
Max stopped a second time anyway. How could stopping earlier not have been a better tactic? Max finished up 17 seconds behind Hamilton.

If they'd pitted instantly they would have been behind with a slower car AND a tyre disadvantage.

Maybe it would have been worth taking a chance when Hamilton was about 15 seconds behind, I thought so at the time. Seeing how well Hamilton's tyres held on though showed it wouldn't have made any difference.

cave_dweller

Enjoyed today's race a lot more than last week's, which was a snoozefest. Riccardo had a very good weekend, really enjoyed seeing him nearer to his best. Loved Bottas not just moving aside for Hamilton. Really impressed that Max held off Hamilton for as long as he did. Mercedes were clearly faster and finishing P2 and getting the fastest lap point was as good as Max could have hoped for.

Red Bull needs Perez to improve quickly. He needs to be closer to the two Mercedes. Bottas is clearly not happy, and if Perez is put into that mix and can put pressure on as well then trouble could come there. If he can do that, Max has a chance of the championship.

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe it would have been worth taking a chance when Hamilton was about 15 seconds behind, I thought so at the time. Seeing how well Hamilton's tyres held on though showed it wouldn't have made any difference.

…..maybe.

Or what if Max pitted before Hamilton’s second stop?
All I’m saying is that the Mercedes strategy was excellent and Rebdulls could have been better. Max was leading and could have won if their choices were better.

2011

2011 wrote: »

…..maybe.

Or what if Max pitted before Hamilton’s second stop?
All I’m saying is that the Mercedes strategy was excellent and Rebdulls could have been better. Max was leading and could have won if their choices were better.

If he'd stopped before Hamilton he would've been putting on worse tyres than what Hamilton had. Would've had a job making them last. Plus it had only been 16 laps since he pitted. And would've had Bottas in the way. Giving up track position without an almost-certain pace advantage isn't how things are done.

El_Duderino 09

I read Bottas not moving aside quickly as him knowing the writing is on the wall for him. He didn't try to show why he's a good man to have around next year with that display. Looks like he's accepted he's out at the end of the season. Maybe I'm just wishful thinking.

Inquitus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I read Bottas not moving aside quickly as him knowing the writing is on the wall for him. He didn't try to show why he's a good man to have around next year with that display. Looks like he's accepted he's out at the end of the season. Maybe I'm just wishful thinking.

Talk about picking your battles badly, this was probably the nailed on time he should have just let Lewis by, he had nothing to gain and a fair bit of a bolloking to look forward to afterwards. I just don't understand his attitude on this one, totally different strategies, obviously going to get passed fairly easily anyways, and makes not one iota of a difference to his race, despite some of his claims to the contrary.

If you are going to give an F U to the team and Hamilton, do it when you actually have something to gain, not when its simply pointless!

And I agree either he knows he's gone at the end of the year, hence his petulance today or he's having a bit of a breakdown given his relatively poor start to the year, he is far further off Hamilton than he has been in recent seasons.

titan18

I think Red Bulls only chance would have maybe been to put with 10-12 laps to go when they had Hamilton 10 seconds or so behind. Particularly when Hamilton was still behind Bottas. Max will end up coming out in 3rd but on softs and we could see he had plenty of pace on those to maybe pull back a second a lap on Hamilton and go for an overtake when Hamilton had worse tires at the end then.

El_Duderino 09

Inquitus wrote: »

Talk about picking your battles badly, this was probably the nailed on time he should have just let Lewis by, he had nothing to gain and a fair bit of a bolloking to look forward to afterwards. I just don't understand his attitude on this one, totally different strategies, obviously going to get passed fairly easily anyways, and makes not one iota of a difference to his race, despite some of his claims to the contrary.

If you are going to give an F U to the team and Hamilton, do it when you actually have something to gain, not when its simply pointless!

And I agree either he knows he's gone at the end of the year, hence his petulance today or he's having a bit of a breakdown given his relatively poor start to the year, he is far further off Hamilton than he has been in recent seasons.

He might just be having a bit of a breakdown as you suggest. He probably went to Mercedes believing he would beat Lewis and be world champion. Now, instead of competing for a championship, he's fighting to keep his drive as a support act to Lewis. That must be very hard on the ego.

He knows he had his chance and has had a very clean experiment to test himself against Lewis and he can't deny the results. He's not going to get another top drive. There aren't many drives on the grid at all when you consider how many seats are take up by Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull young drivers and works teams. There's probably only the Renault, mclaren, and one Williams and one Alfa seat up for grabs. None of them will be very appealing to a guy who thought he was going to beat Lewis at Mercedes and I don't think he'd get offers for all of those seats BTW

Indestructable

I have some sympathy for Bottas, it must be awful to be so firmly in Lewis' shadow and that is all he will be remembered for in F1. He was good and showed promise but it's unlikely any other team will take him when his time with Merc is up.

Last chance saloon this season and it's slipped away already.

titan18

Indestructable wrote: »

I have some sympathy for Bottas, it must be awful to be so firmly in Lewis' shadow and that is all he will be remembered for in F1. He was good and showed promise but it's unlikely any other team will take him when his time with Merc is up.

Last chance saloon this season and it's slipped away already.

Williams are possible I think. Russell moving to Mercedes and Bottas moving to sit alongside Latifi there. That might be the only one really unless a team is stuck.

oceanman

Indestructable wrote: »

I have some sympathy for Bottas, it must be awful to be so firmly in Lewis' shadow and that is all he will be remembered for in F1. He was good and showed promise but it's unlikely any other team will take him when his time with Merc is up.

Last chance saloon this season and it's slipped away already.

i think he will still get another drive even if merc drops him, he driving style would suit some teams...

El_Duderino 09

titan18 wrote: »

Williams are possible I think. Russell moving to Mercedes and Bottas moving to sit alongside Latifi there. That might be the only one really unless a team is stuck.

Thinking about it, i doubt Williams could pay his wages. Maybe thy have more money now since they were taken over. But I'd imagine they'll need another pay driver or Mercedes young driver alongside Latifi.

titan18

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Thinking about it, i doubt Williams could pay his wages. Maybe thy have more money now since they were taken over. But I'd imagine they'll need another pay driver or Mercedes young driver alongside Latifi.

Ya, he'd probably need to drop in wages but I can't see anywhere else.

Ferrari are locked up, as are McLaren and Aston Martin. Haas are only changing if Mazepin is kicked out or Schumacher moves elsewhere. I can't see him joining either Red Bull side, so you're left with Alpine, Williams and Alfa Romeo.

For those, Alonso is meant to be signed for next season so either Bottas replaces Icon or a young driver goes there and I'd give Zhou better odds of being called up there than Bottas joining, and if going for another driver Gasly is very possible. Alfa Romeo are possible as fair potential they're replacing both drivers but one will likely be Ferrari young driver again if so, so that'll be Ilott which leaves only one spot if both spot open up. You're down to Williams then which has an open spot if Russell moves to Mercedes

Jordan 199

Another good result for Ocon today.

Burkie1203

oceanman wrote: »

i think he will still get another drive even if merc drops him, he driving style would suit some teams...

Bottas might end up at Alfa Romeo
Not many seats available. Maybe Red Bull if Checo has a disasterous season but he brings a chunk of $$$$$

Harika

The question remains why Mercedes should drop him? Sure he doesn't challenge Hamilton often but three podiums and overall was in three races where he needed to be.

Indestructable

Harika wrote: »

The question remains why Mercedes should drop him? Sure he doesn't challenge Hamilton often but three podiums and overall was in three races where he needed to be.

They might be worried about losing Russell, who they probably see as the long term replacement for Hamilton. I'm not all that convinced that Russell is all he is made out to be but I do think that he is Mercedes man for the future.

AMKC

quokula wrote: »

Excellent drive from Verstappen but the Merc just has far too much pace. No possible way to win in that Red Bull, it was an extraordinary effort to make it look competitive for so long.

I disagree. If Max first pit stop had of been better and if they had of pitted Max before Hamilton pitted the 2and time I think Max could have won but they fecked up and done a Ferrari. Not a good day at all at Red Bull. Very poor form. Max was the only one on top form and he was let down by the team.
Fair play to Mercedes they won it on clever strategy.

Harika

Indestructable wrote: »

They might be worried about losing Russell, who they probably see as the long term replacement for Hamilton. I'm not all that convinced that Russell is all he is made out to be but I do think that he is Mercedes man for the future.

Heidfeld was groomed for years to go to McLaren, then Kimi dropped by... Russell can be parked at Williams longer as where could he go and compete with Mercedes?
Mercedes can always go to McLaren and ask for Daniel or Norris.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

I disagree. If Max first pit stop had of been better and if they had of pitted Max before Hamilton pitted the 2and time I think Max could have won but they fecked up and done a Ferrari. Not a good day at all at Red Bull. Very poor form. Max was the only one on top form and he was let down by the team.
Fair play to Mercedes they won it on clever strategy.

Giving up track position, hoping they didn't pit, having to pass Bottas, not having mediums to put on... there was no way they were going to pull the trigger before Mercedes.

The key thing that people don't seem to be accounting for is that Mercedes have a car that's quite a bit faster in race trim. With DRS track position isn't quite as important as it used to be. Having the faster car gives more options. If anything it's one thing I don't like about DRS, it generally makes strategy more inevitable. If there was no DRS then track position would matter so much more.

titan18

Harika wrote: »

The question remains why Mercedes should drop him? Sure he doesn't challenge Hamilton often but three podiums and overall was in three races where he needed to be.

Probably be Hamilton's decision really id say as he's also out of contract. If he decides to retire or go do something else for a year, you'd imagine Bottas would stay as replacing two drivers is tough. Same as if Hamilton wants to continue and wants Bottas to stay as he knows he's faster and he isn't a threat to him. He might not care who his teammate is then either and be fine with a young fast driver in Russell to push him harder. You'd have to imagine management though aren't too happy with stuff like today from Bottas though

Hijpo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Giving up track position, hoping they didn't pit, having to pass Bottas, not having mediums to put on... there was no way they were going to pull the trigger before Mercedes.

The key thing that people don't seem to be accounting for is that Mercedes have a car that's quite a bit faster in race trim. With DRS track position isn't quite as important as it used to be. Having the faster car gives more options. If anything it's one thing I don't like about DRS, it generally makes strategy more inevitable. If there was no DRS then track position would matter so much more.

On one graphic Max topped out at 309Kmh without DRS and Hamilton behind him with DRS had hit 330Kmh before having to brake for the corner.

This is it

If they had no mediums left then there was no point in putting that early.

Awesome from LeClerc today

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

If he'd stopped before Hamilton he would've been putting on worse tyres than what Hamilton had.

Yes, but ask yourself, why was that? They started off the weekend with the same amount of tyres in the same condition.

Would've had a job making them last.

Sure, but he is a particularly talented driver.

Plus it had only been 16 laps since he pitted. And would've had Bottas in the way. Giving up track position without an almost-certain pace advantage isn't how things are done.

We have seen him pass Bottas a few times before and this time he would have had a tyre advantage too.

I accept that Mercedes have a faster car and won fair and square today. But I don't accept that Max could not have won in his car under any circumstances. Max had track position and can make it difficult to pass. Different tactical decisions throughout and I believe he could have won. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my opinion.

Jordan 199

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Bottas could start a race as the only car and still finish 3rd.

Cruel!!

2011

2011 wrote: »

Yes, but ask yourself, why was that? They started off the weekend with the same amount of tyres in the same condition.

Mercedes didn't need to use them. Was set to be a one-stopper as well.

Sure, but he is a particularly talented driver.

True.

We have seen him pass Bottas a few times before and this time he would have had a tyre advantage too.

I accept that Mercedes have a faster car and won fair and square today. But I don't accept that Max could not have won in his car under any circumstances. Max had track position and can make it difficult to pass. Different tactical decisions throughout and I believe he could have won. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my opinion.

There are situations he could have won. A lucky safety car for example. Qualifying and race traffic has muddied the waters a bit, Mercedes are much faster in race trim. If you watch just before the first stop Hamilton had a serious run on Verstappen.

Joeface

For all the free practice Mercedes used pretty much just soft tyres. Commentators even mentioned it that it was strange. I think even max mentioned it during FP2 when he was told Lewis was out again on another new set of soft tyres.

I don't think you can beat Them on Sundays without luck for safety cars or rain. You have to beat them on Friday when they arrive .your plan has to be better . They were always going to 2 stop on medium tyres . They knew it was the faster way .
I mean Redbulls Radio chat just sounded defeated the min they realised what was happening .

It was a genius play . None of use saw it . ..well I didn't .
It has to dent Redbulls confidence some what.

Only thing Mercedes didn't get their way was Bottas could have been second . And piled the pressure on .

2011

Joeface wrote: »

For all the free practice Mercedes used pretty much just soft tyres. Commentators even mentioned it that it was strange. I think even max mentioned it during FP2 when he was told Lewis was out again on another new set of soft tyres.

Yes, that was clever. The race tactics started on Friday.

It was a genius play . None of use saw it . ..well I didn't .
It has to dent Redbulls confidence some what.

Yes it was genius. Unfortunately it killing F1.

Santan

Did anyone see the mazepin holding up Hamilton video, christ it was some over reaching by wolf to make the call to race control, looks like as soon as ham gets close enough to him he pulls over, did he just want him to pull over and park up just to let Hamilton pass. I think this is one time where mazepin is not in the wrong

Santan

Santan wrote: »

Did anyone see the mazepin holding up Hamilton video, christ it was some over reaching by wolf to make the call to race control, looks like as soon as ham gets close enough to him he pulls over, did he just want him to pull over and park up just to let Hamilton pass. I think this is one time where mazepin is not in the wrong

They played the audio when Hamilton was still a bit behind. Was some classic whinging alright.

quokula

2011 wrote: »

Yes, that was clever. The race tactics started on Friday.



Yes it was genius. Unfortunately it killing F1.

I'm not sure you could just call it purely clever tactics - it's not like anyone else couldn't have thought of the genius idea of not bothering to practice on the mediums, it's just that nobody else had a car with enough innate pace in it that they could be confident enough to just throw them on and be the comfortably fastest car on track when it came to race day.

Frank Bullitt

Turned it off after that overtake.

19 races to go, and already feels like RB are making a total balls of it.

Dont be at yourself

It’s a long season, and RB typically are strong at developing their car. If Perez can reliably qualify 4th, then we may have a title fight yet.

El_Duderino 09

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

It’s a long season, and RB typically are strong at developing their car. If Perez can reliably qualify 4th, then we may have a title fight yet.

Red Bull's development is often done after the championship is over and Mercedes has switched focus to the next year. I think Mercedes is the best at developing the car early in the season. See the difference between Mercedes in the first race and the other three races.

ednwireland

Santan wrote: »

Did anyone see the mazepin holding up Hamilton video, christ it was some over reaching by wolf to make the call to race control, looks like as soon as ham gets close enough to him he pulls over, did he just want him to pull over and park up just to let Hamilton pass. I think this is one time where mazepin is not in the wrong

pre-empting that mazepin would get in the way ??:D:D

Joeface

Money aside , I don't Like Mazepin , Don't think he is anywhere near ready for F1 . he does have a bit of talent he showed that in F2 but probably needed another year , and a mind coach to straight some of the attitude out., I think this weekend he was blamed for 2 incidents that were not his fault. He didn't hold up Lewis , slow to get out of the way yes but he didn't repeat what he did against Perez the week before . Bottas Held lewis up more and he was asked by the team to move.

The incident in Qual with Norris , That was caused by Yuki and Kimi who were on in laps and over took Mazepin who was trying to start a Qual run. If he had stayed behind those 2 he would have completely blocked Lando . He took the best decision for poor situation. Those 2 should get points as well if he got them .

This is it

I only saw highlights, and very little of that really, so can anyone tell me what happened Norris? Just a not great day at the office, car issues, strategy issues? Love seeing a young talented driver fighting at the front, or close to the front, and was surprised to see him slightly down the order.

El_Duderino 09

This is it wrote: »

I only saw highlights, and very little of that really, so can anyone tell me what happened Norris? Just a not great day at the office, car issues, strategy issues? Love seeing a young talented driver fighting at the front, or close to the front, and was surprised to see him slightly down the order.

I think he struggled all weekend. Ric was generally faster through the weekend - certainly in quali and the race.

Norris got caught behind Ocon and couldn't pass even though he was faster, so the gap to Ric grew.

Interesting that there hasn't been a race where both mclaren drivers have had similar pace. It's tended to be that one is up near the front and the other is in the midfield.