Hiring staff on more money?

LegacyUser

Hi,

I work for a large company and like most companies we have a career structure that we all are placed in. The career structure has stood still for the last number of years but like most staff we have changed roles, taken on more responsibility etc with no reward.

The issue is the company is now hiring and I’m currently hiring people who will report to me but the annoying thing is they will be on more money than I. In some cases up to 20% more than my current salary.

I have raised this issue and am getting the usual crap of we are looking into it etc.. if you were in my shoes what would you do?

Thanks
Annoyedmansger

antix80

This has been going on forever.

Google it.

Best thing to do is get a new job offer then hand in your notice.

Your company can justify your payrise when you show you're willing to leave and you have a job offer that shows your market value.

Flinty997

The modern world doesn't not value length of service.

It's not about what you are worth, but what you can get. You only know what this is by moving. The company will only bother to work this out when they try to replace you. Which they don't do unless you leave.

Having a job offer and calling their bluff only works once and if they call your bluff you have to be prepared to move.

If you stay, paying you less relative to others while getting you to do more is a win win for the business and a win win for whomever you report to. No one going to want to change that if they don't have to.

So in summary this is wake up call for you.
That you have to go seize the day etc.

...or if you are content suck it up. Sometimes thats the right choice too.

OMM 0000

antix80 wrote: »

This has been going on forever.

Google it.

Best thing to do is get a new job offer then hand in your notice.

Your company can justify your payrise when you show you're willing to leave and you have a job offer that shows your market value.

Yeah, it sounds like this is your option.

Jim2007

Annoyedmanager wrote: »

Hi,

I work for a large company and like most companies we have a career structure that we all are placed in. The career structure has stood still for the last number of years but like most staff we have changed roles, taken on more responsibility etc with no reward.

The issue is the company is now hiring and I’m currently hiring people who will report to me but the annoying thing is they will be on more money than I. In some cases up to 20% more than my current salary.

I have raised this issue and am getting the usual crap of we are looking into it etc.. if you were in my shoes what would you do?

Thanks
Annoyedmansger

It is not that unusual to have to manage people that are more highly paid than you, especially if you are managing people with skills or experience that are in high demand. Management is not the only way to advance to higher salaries.

These days it's productivity and achievement not length of service that counts. So I suspect you'll need to be able to show a significant contribution beyond turning up and doing the usual or else that you will be difficult to replace in order to motivate them to do something about your salary.

Flinty997

Jim2007 wrote: »

....
These days it's productivity and achievement not length of service that counts. ...

Does everywhere actually measure productivity and achievement. I'm not sure that they do.

In my experience is more the perception than the reality thats important. Often its people standing on the shoulders of others.

Its up to people to do their own PR. If you don't self promote, no one else will.

Tazium

Can you apply for one of the roles where you'd get the higher salary?

spaceHopper

Book a meeting with you manager and ask them when will they have an answer. Then ask them if they were in your position what would they do - say nothing else and leave an uncomfortable silence let them make then next move. Or tell them that for the role you are doing x is an appropriate salary have something to back it up.

If you book the meeting for next Friday they have all week to come up with an answer so that they can't express surprise or oh you caught me off guard let me comeback to you.

If they don't budge, leave and not accept any counter offer from them.

dreamers75

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is not that unusual to have to manage people that are more highly paid than you, especially if you are managing people with skills or experience that are in high demand. Management is not the only way to advance to higher salaries.

I manage staff on close to double what I am on, I understand this as I am a manager and they are the product engineers.

They 100% should be on more than me.

If you in your case they are doing a job you graduated from then crack on with getting the payrise.

Jim2007

Jim2007 wrote: »

These days it's productivity and achievement not length of service that counts. So I suspect you'll need to be able to show a significant contribution beyond turning up and doing the usual or else that you will be difficult to replace in order to motivate them to do something about your salary.

That's possible, but it's also true that companies will pay as little as they can get away with.

_Brian

Technically they aren’t doing anything wrong.
Yea some people are very out off by this but your own pay is your business and their pay is theirs.

If you can negotiate more pay then that’s great but it may not be possible and you may have to move on to get better pay elsewhere.

Strumms

Pay needs to be relative to responsibility.

If you are in a managerial role, the ultimate responsibility is on you to ensure everything is running as it should... you should get better pay as you have a higher degree of responsibility..

Odelay

Strumms wrote: »

Pay needs to be relative to responsibility.

If you are in a managerial role, the ultimate responsibility is on you to ensure everything is running as it should... you should get better pay as you have a higher degree of responsibility..

That doesn't always apply. What about a manager managing a football player, managing pilots, surgeons, major actors? Who gets paid more then? It also happens in industry as described above where managing skilled people. The manager doesn't have to have the skills, just be able to manage.

Strumms

Odelay wrote: »

That doesn't always apply. What about a manager managing a football player, managing pilots, surgeons, major actors? Who gets paid more then? It also happens in industry as described above where managing skilled people. The manager doesn't have to have the skills, just be able to manage.

Managing pilots ? It’s an industry I know well, System Chief pilot in a job I had was on about $230,000. Regional chief pilots $175,000..Line pilots significantly less all be it excellent money.

People managing surgeons ? Senior consultants, again, they are on hefty six figure salary’s.

Football players are independent contractors. All on negotiated contracts. No football player anywhere is an employee, 100% are contractors.

Actors don’t have managers to report to... they are not employees of anybody either, they are independent contractors..

It’s not about skills. Despite whatever you do, it’s about responsibility.

Lantus

Man who works for free, will always have work. Chinese proverb.

Muppet Man

Honestly I would struggle with this situation OP and I don't blame you for wanting to do change the situation. How much would it cost them to replace you in the current market? But to be honest if you can prove you are being underpaid for your role with x number of direct reports, I would be of the mindset to be moving on. Factor in benefits like pension, health and holidays as well to ensure you are comparing apples to apples.

On the other hand if you are Comfortable and otherwise enjoying the role then there is merit in applying 'value' to that. You could move to a new job in a new company with 25% increase and absolutely hate the job.

In all cases you need to take a selfish view of your own career

Good luck
Muppet man

ebayissues

OP isn't doing anything wrong.

Wage inflation is part the issue. In my previous company, my manager was at 65k with 6 years in the job. Within 2 yearsiout of college, I was on 50k. Fastfforward a couple of years later, a friend of mine with less experience joined the company and was on more money than me.

OP, start interviewing, get an offer of atleast 10k. Ask your company tommatch tthis .

Think about the pros aand cons of movingjjobs eespecially in this climate.

Pharmacy business manager would be on far less than the pharmacist in a community pharmacy.

LegacyUser

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the replies, just some context the field we are discussing is IT. I served my time as an engineer and worked my way up to management.

I don’t blame the new recruits as they are highly skilled and know their market worth hence the salaries. As some of you said the responsibility stops with me so I’m going to use this as leverage but backup plan started today getting my LinkedIn profile and CV up to date.

The market is good so I have selected a few roles to apply for. It will give me a good indiction of what’s out there and my worth.

Thanks
Annoyedmanager

dreamers75

Strumms wrote: »

It’s not about skills. Despite whatever you do, it’s about responsibility.

No its not, its about the product/service being provided and who its being provided by.

The manager of surgeons doesnt stand over a whoopsie, the surgeon does as it it is his skill set the manager just scheduled it, the manager doesnt stand over an electrical install killing someone the electrician does its his skillset. This is what they got peieces of paper for to stand over their work.

Gone far away from the OP but managers manage staff, staff generally provide the service and in some cases are on more money than the manager. That is perfectly fine.

Strumms

dreamers75 wrote: »

No its not, its about the product/service being provided and who its being provided by.

The manager of surgeons doesnt stand over a whoopsie, the surgeon does as it it is his skill set the manager just scheduled it, the manager doesnt stand over an electrical install killing someone the electrician does its his skillset. This is what they got peieces of paper for to stand over their work.

Gone far away from the OP but managers manage staff, staff generally provide the service and in some cases are on more money than the manager. That is perfectly fine.

Well, I was never in a job where the line employee got paid more then management.

The manager would definitely need to account for the error. Staff supervision and clinical governance are key elements of consultants jobs..any managers jobs...manage.

Any IT person I know reports to a manager.

dreamers75

Strumms wrote: »

Well, I was never in a job where the line employee got paid more then management.

The manager would definitely need to account for the error. Staff supervision and clinical governance are key elements of consultants jobs..any managers jobs.

Any IT person I know reports to a manager.

The fact you called them a "line" employee tells me a lot, for arguments sake an engineer who is one of 3* people in ireland qualified to install a certain security system (fcuk load of degrees) I tell him on Monday he is in X building installing said system. I should be paid more than him?

I cant install that and if it goes wrong, he will be back anytime 24/7 he works direct for the company hasnt gone consultant YET.

*maybe like 5 that are allowed by the manufacturer, possibly 6 not entirely sure tbh.

Apologies OP.

Strumms

dreamers75 wrote: »

The fact you called them a "line" employee tells me a lot, for arguments sake an engineer who is one of 3* people in ireland qualified to install a certain security system (fcuk load of degrees) I tell him on Monday he is in X building installing said system. I should be paid more than him?

I cant install that and if it goes wrong, he will be back anytime 24/7 he works direct for the company hasnt gone consultant YET.

*maybe like 5 that are allowed by the manufacturer, possibly 6 not entirely sure tbh.

Apologies OP.

A line employee is a reference to a non management employee so beyond that what it’s supposed to mean ? .

qwerty13

I wouldn’t have thought that this scenario was all that unusual - it depends on the specific skill set required, and whether it’s in short supply or not. Simple fact is that if the company needs x skill set, and it’s in short supply, then they probably need to bump up what they previously would have paid for the same skills in order to attract the skills that they need.

Of course this can be very disheartening, both for existing employees of the same x skill set, and for someone managing them. It’s down to employers not wanting to pay any more than they have to in salaries. I can’t imagine any employer would voluntarily bump up the salary of an existing employee with the same skill set, or the manager, simply because there’s an excess of demand versus supply.

It’s not a slight on you OP, it’s just capitalism / economics. There’s 3 ways of dealing with it:
1. If you otherwise like the company / your role / the flexibility of other benefits - suck it up, but get better at selling yourself internally, so that your employer is actively trying to ‘attract you to not leave’
2. If the disparity in salary is something that you just can’t live with, pursue this in the company to try to get a review. Be prepared for strong pushback though, and do your homework on what value you add, and market rates for your experience and how in demand your particular skills are. If your specific skills aren’t in relatively high demand, use your current employer to increase your skills - whether by getting them to pay for courses, or perhaps a sideways move that would increase your experience and marketability
3. Start looking elsewhere. Use this as a bargaining chip if you get a better offer - but you have to be prepared to actually make that move if your current employer won’t match an offer you get elsewhere. And IMO you only get to do this once. And beware in case that ‘caps’ you in terms of salary scale and bonuses

I know it’s annoying, but I’m not sure you have any specific grounds for complaint unless there’s a very regimented salary scale where you work.

Jim2007

Flinty997 wrote: »

Does everywhere actually measure productivity and achievement. I'm not sure that they do.

In my experience is more the perception than the reality thats important. Often its people standing on the shoulders of others.

Its up to people to do their own PR. If you don't self promote, no one else will.

The point is you need something beyond he is going to get more than me to have a basis for the increase.

Jim2007

Strumms wrote: »

Pay needs to be relative to responsibility.

If you are in a managerial role, the ultimate responsibility is on you to ensure everything is running as it should... you should get better pay as you have a higher degree of responsibility..

You are talking about a couple of exceptions rather than the norm. In many or probably most cases the product engineers, marketing specialists, salesmen, operations specialists are critical. Junior to middle management not so much, you can always cut them or switch to cheaper versions in an economic crisis. When they start taking the knife to the guys that design, build and sell, the writing is on the wall.

Jim2007

Strumms wrote: »

A line employee is a reference to a non management employee so beyond that what it’s supposed to mean ? .

That would seem to be your problem.... you failed to appreciate that many organizations have technical career paths and management career paths and technical paths are often paid more, particularly in science, technology and engineering.

Take for instance the database environment in a major bank, if that goes down it will be the techies that decide how to get it back, the manager role will be to communicate what the techies are doing and to act as a buffer so the techies can get on with it.

Mollydog123

I'm a manager albeit not in IT. I cant grasp how any manager could manage people without having a pretty good grasp of the roles of the people they manage, and the job they do. Therefore I'd expect the manager to be qualified in the same area. In my industry(Pharma) all engineering managers would be engineers, all quality managers would have quality degrees etc.

Wanderer78

antix80 wrote:

Best thing to do is get a new job offer then hand in your notice.

Yup, this is pretty much the only way to do it, it's important to always remember, you really are just a number, the share holders needs are all that matters, and you're just there to be used and abused, best of luck

Wanderer78

Mollydog123 wrote:

I'm a manager albeit not in IT. I cant grasp how any manager could manage people without having a pretty good grasp of the roles of the people they manage, and the job they do. Therefore I'd expect the manager to be qualified in the same area. In my industry(Pharma) all engineering managers would be engineers, all quality managers would have quality degrees etc.

Sometimes it can be very beneficial to have a good mix of backgrounds in departments, it can reduce group think, and produce alternative thinking towards problem solving

Flinty997

Mollydog123 wrote: »

I'm a manager albeit not in IT. I cant grasp how any manager could manage people without having a pretty good grasp of the roles of the people they manage, and the job they do. Therefore I'd expect the manager to be qualified in the same area. In my industry(Pharma) all engineering managers would be engineers, all quality managers would have quality degrees etc.

If someone is good at managing projects they can generally manage anything. However someone who can do this is rare. So generally it's easier for someone with domain knowledge. Especially if their project management isnt top notch.