What seem to be major works in a rented property

CrazySka

Hi.
I am hoping someone can offer some advice.
We rent in a development in Dublin managed by a large international property management company, they own a large amount of apartments in this development.
Around 2 years ago we had some contact from the company stating that there was some work that would need to done in all of their apartments to improve entrance hallway fire protection.
We heard nothing since but a few weeks ago a notice was put up in the elevator stating that the works would begin and that the contractors would abide by Covid regulations etc.
We received a letter today with notice that the contractors would require access to our apartment for a 10 Day period between 9am and 5pm.
I am working from home due to Covid and we have a 6 week old baby, my partner is on maternity leave.
The scope of works seems a lot.
It basically seems like they are doing large amounts of work to the ceiling in the hallway, there is mention of dust protection, ceilings being slabbed, sanding, skimming and painting.
We are concerned about the impact on ourselves and more so the baby during this time.
The apartment is a one bed with a small additional room being used as an office, all rooms open into the hallway where the work is being done including the main bathroom.
Has anyone had any experience of this kind of situation, are we obliged to allow the works to take place, are they entitled to access?
Thanks

Graces7

CrazySka wrote: »

Hi.
I am hoping someone can offer some advice.
We rent in a development in Dublin managed by a large international property management company, they own a large amount of apartments in this development.
Around 2 years ago we had some contact from the company stating that there was some work that would need to done in all of their apartments to improve entrance hallway fire protection.
We heard nothing since but a few weeks ago a notice was put up in the elevator stating that the works would begin and that the contractors would abide by Covid regulations etc.
We received a letter today with notice that the contractors would require access to our apartment for a 10 Day period between 9am and 5pm.
I am working from home due to Covid and we have a 6 week old baby, my partner is on maternity leave.
The scope of works seems a lot.
It basically seems like they are doing large amounts of work to the ceiling in the hallway, there is mention of dust protection, ceilings being slabbed, sanding, skimming and painting.
We are concerned about the impact on ourselves and more so the baby during this time.
The apartment is a one bed with a small additional room being used as an office, all rooms open into the hallway where the work is being done including the main bathroom.
Has anyone had any experience of this kind of situation, are we obliged to allow the works to take place, are they entitled to access?
Thanks

Can you contact the management just as you have here? Surely they cannot enter AND keep to covid safety regs? Stress that you have a young baby. Just pass this post on to them.

fritzelly

Contact the management company - sounds like it's not possible to be living there when work is being done by the sounds of what you describe
Maybe they have other apartments you can occupy temporarily til the work is done

fineso.mom

As above, contact the management company. If it's just the hallway it probably will only take a day or so. I presume since the note was put in the elevator it was for all occupants, so the ten days most likely refers to the time to complete all appartments. If you can find out which day they will be working in your apartment you could plan to spend the day elsewhere. An inconvenience of course but bringing the building up to code is not something that can be put off really. I think think you should have been contacted personally with specifics so you could plan around the disruption but perhaps individual letters will also be sent.

Wildly Boaring

Contact the management company.

I would make the point these type of works are not done for fun.
It is highly likely the hallway is constructed with insufficient fire protection.
If they now need access to your apartment is it to do work? If so your apartment was probably constructed incorrectly.

I would do my upmost to facilitate such works.

If the management company has gone to the expense of employing someone to rectify these fire issues it is highly likely you and your family are actually at risk until they are done.

Mrs OBumble

You're a tenant, the management company have nothing to do with you.

Contact your landlord and ask them to arrange somewhere else for you to stay while the work is done.

Legally you do not have a right to refuse it- and given that its fire safety related you should want it done anyway.

Jmc25

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Contact the management company.

I would make the point these type of works are not done for fun.
It is highly likely the hallway is constructed with insufficient fire protection.
If they now need access to your apartment is it to do work? If so your apartment was probably constructed incorrectly.

I would do my upmost to facilitate such works.

If the management company has gone to the expense of employing someone to rectify these fire issues it is highly likely you and your family are actually at risk until they are done.

100% agree with this. This is likely a major issue which has been rumbling behind the scenes for some time. So many developments have a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it comes to these issues, which are widespread in Ireland as a result of substandard construction during the boom years. It's a positive that the management company in your development are on top of it. It'll be a inconvenience for sure but ultimately of major benefit to you and every one else living there.

Graces7

Jmc25 wrote: »

100% agree with this. This is likely a major issue which has been rumbling behind the scenes for some time. So many developments have a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it comes to these issues, which are widespread in Ireland as a result of substandard construction during the boom years. It's a positive that the management company in your development are on top of it. It'll be a inconvenience for sure but ultimately of major benefit to you and every one else living there.

Agreed of course but given they have a very small baby and given the covid situation this family need to know the when and how of this.

They cannot just have anyone walking in between the hours stipulated. That is all they are asking. Safety .

KevRossi

I'd say that they have been in touch with the landlord and the landlord has not told you for whatever reasons. We had similar work done in our apartment building some years back and there was a lot of communication with us about access, hours being worked and potential disruption with dust, debris etc. I also worked in installations in office buildings and if there was a retro fit to a working office there was a lot of communication in advance to minimise disruption.

I'd get on to the management company, the site foreman/builder and landlord to get a picture of what disruption is going to be caused. Yes, it may be necessary works but you're also entitled to a fair idea of what will be going on, when, and the amount of disruption you're going to have.

Be nice to the builders/foreman, even though you may be frustrated with the lack of communication. If you're not being awkward they will put a lot more effort into you're section.

CrazySka

Hi Folks.
Firstly just to say thanks to all who have responded, really appreciate the points of view and opinions on this.

Just to be clear here, the management company and the landlord are one and the same here, it is a large international company that owns and manages many, many rental properties around the country and I'd guess in Europe as well..

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Contact the management company.

I would make the point these type of works are not done for fun.
It is highly likely the hallway is constructed with insufficient fire protection.
If they now need access to your apartment is it to do work? If so your apartment was probably constructed incorrectly.

I would do my upmost to facilitate such works.

If the management company has gone to the expense of employing someone to rectify these fire issues it is highly likely you and your family are actually at risk until they are done.

Oh I absolutely agree with this, I don't think this is being done for fun or to inconvenience us, I realise they wouldn't be taken on the expense of hiring a contractor to do the work in 60 odd apartments for a laugh, I do wonder why the initial contact was made 2 years ago and question the timing of the works being done now.
Moreso I question whether the scope of the work is such that the apartment will be habitable\safe for the period that the work is being done.

fineso.mom wrote: »

As above, contact the management company. If it's just the hallway it probably will only take a day or so. I presume since the note was put in the elevator it was for all occupants, so the ten days most likely refers to the time to complete all appartments. If you can find out which day they will be working in your apartment you could plan to spend the day elsewhere. An inconvenience of course but bringing the building up to code is not something that can be put off really. I think think you should have been contacted personally with specifics so you could plan around the disruption but perhaps individual letters will also be sent.

Thanks, yeah the individual letters were sent yesterday, 2 weeks before the work is scheduled, there is a fairly detailed breakdown of the work involved, thats what makes me unsettled tbh, it does say 10 days.

I might be giving to much detail here but I don't think I have a duty of privacy in this case although I could be wrong, see below for summary of works.

Entrance Hallway Fire Protection:
.5 day - Protective membrane placed to cover floors and Hallway doors sealed to minimise dust transfer
1 day - Ceiling marked and cut along perimeter of hallway
.5 day - waste removed and hallway vacuumed
3-4 days - Work to ceiling
1 day - Ceiling slabbed
1 day -Ceiling skimmed
1 day - Work on doors
.5 day -Ceiling sanded and filled
. 5 day - Painting
2 hours - Cleaning

Again, this all seems essential stuff and needs to be done, I just don't know how we can function in the apartment with the baby, work and access to the bathroom being in the hallway.

I'll talk to them but I don think we'll get a cookie cutter response, I expect there's other people who aren't happy with it, in similar or equally challenging situations.

Aside from the covid stuff I don't know what the effect on a small baby the dust will have, or what will come down with the roof work. I don't know how much noise will be involved, I don't know if I can work from here during it.

As I say I'll talk to them, and see maybe they can allay some of my concerns. I'd be happier if maybe they could defer us to the end and we'll pay for an AirbnB or similar if we had to or maybe stay with relatives, I guess we'd carry the cost for that which seems mad.

I wouldn't be rude to the contractors, don't see the point, I have seen them in there the last few weeks as they've been working on other places, first impressions were they didn't seem to concerned about any covid considerations but could be wrong, their statement says they have a covid safety officer etc.

Thanks again to all and would really appreciate any additional thoughts or points of view on it.

Graces7

CrazySka wrote: »

Hi Folks.
Firstly just to say thanks to all who have responded, really appreciate the points of view and opinions on this.

Just to be clear here, the management company and the landlord are one and the same here, it is a large international company that owns and manages many, many rental properties around the country and I'd guess in Europe as well..



Oh I absolutely agree with this, I don't think this is being done for fun or to inconvenience us, I realise they wouldn't be taken on the expense of hiring a contractor to do the work in 60 odd apartments for a laugh, I do wonder why the initial contact was made 2 years ago and question the timing of the works being done now.
Moreso I question whether the scope of the work is such that the apartment will be habitable\safe for the period that the work is being done.



Thanks, yeah the individual letters were sent yesterday, 2 weeks before the work is scheduled, there is a fairly detailed breakdown of the work involved, thats what makes me unsettled tbh, it does say 10 days.

I might be giving to much detail here but I don't think I have a duty of privacy in this case although I could be wrong, see below for summary of works.

Entrance Hallway Fire Protection:
.5 day - Protective membrane placed to cover floors and Hallway doors sealed to minimise dust transfer
1 day - Ceiling marked and cut along perimeter of hallway
.5 day - waste removed and hallway vacuumed
3-4 days - Work to ceiling
1 day - Ceiling slabbed
1 day -Ceiling skimmed
1 day - Work on doors
.5 day -Ceiling sanded and filled
. 5 day - Painting
2 hours - Cleaning

Again, this all seems essential stuff and needs to be done, I just don't know how we can function in the apartment with the baby, work and access to the bathroom being in the hallway.

I'll talk to them but I don think we'll get a cookie cutter response, I expect there's other people who aren't happy with it, in similar or equally challenging situations.

Aside from the covid stuff I don't know what the effect on a small baby the dust will have, or what will come down with the roof work. I don't know how much noise will be involved, I don't know if I can work from here during it.

As I say I'll talk to them, and see maybe they can allay some of my concerns. I'd be happier if maybe they could defer us to the end and we'll pay for an AirbnB or similar if we had to or maybe stay with relatives, I guess we'd carry the cost for that which seems mad.

I wouldn't be rude to the contractors, don't see the point, I have seen them in there the last few weeks as they've been working on other places, first impressions were they didn't seem to concerned about any covid considerations but could be wrong, their statement says they have a covid safety officer etc.

Thanks again to all and would really appreciate any additional thoughts or points of view on it.

Communication will be the key here? And insistence; and as you rightly say, the baby comes first. Does the landlord know that you have a small child?

CrazySka

Graces7 wrote: »

Communication will be the key here? And insistence; and as you rightly say, the baby comes first. Does the landlord know that you have a small child?

Thanks, they don't, the nature of the development is that they wouldn't be aware of the personal circumstances of their tenants, I'd say they have thousands.

I'll communicate that and other concerns on Monday and see what they come back with, they let us know the work was happening with a letter in our letterbox that I got on Friday evening, as there is a pool of letterboxes in the entrance I could see that there were the same letters hanging out of other letterboxes so must be doing them in phases and just giving notice that the works will be commencing on x date.

It does say someone will be in touch to discuss any concerns etc.

Something I'm wondering is if they talk to us and can't clear up our concerns then what happens, do they just come in anyway? In the event of essential upgrade works as a tenant are we obliged to let it go ahead regardless of personal safety concerns or inconvenience?

Lets say that we cant access the main bathroom for 2 days, what are there obligations?

Really don't want to be unreasonable in the face of works that need to be done but have to be sure its safe.

As far as I can see its only apartments owned by this company that are getting it done, privately owned apartments (maybe 10%) dont seem to be, thats possibly neither here nor there though

Graces7

CrazySka wrote: »

Thanks, they don't, the nature of the development is that they wouldn't be aware of the personal circumstances of their tenants, I'd say they have thousands.

I'll communicate that and other concerns on Monday and see what they come back with, they let us know the work was happening with a letter in our letterbox that I got on Friday evening, as there is a pool of letterboxes in the entrance I could see that there were the same letters hanging out of other letterboxes so must be doing them in phases and just giving notice that the works will be commencing on x date.

It does say someone will be in touch to discuss any concerns etc.

Something I'm wondering is if they talk to us and can't clear up our concerns then what happens, do they just come in anyway? In the event of essential upgrade works as a tenant are we obliged to let it go ahead regardless of personal safety concerns or inconvenience?

Lets say that we cant access the main bathroom for 2 days, what are there obligations?

Really don't want to be unreasonable in the face of works that need to be done but have to be sure its safe.

As far as I can see its only apartments owned by this company that are getting it done, privately owned apartments (maybe 10%) dont seem to be, thats possibly neither here nor there though

Exactly so. Are they even wearing masks? Just do what you need to do to stay safe and keep the little one safe.

Mrs OBumble

CrazySka wrote: »

Thanks, they don't [know that the OP has a baby] the nature of the development is that they wouldn't be aware of the personal circumstances of their tenants, I'd say they have thousands.

Your lease will have a clause obliging you to tell them if you want to move another person in to the apartment.


Also, whether you can work from there is not the landlords problem. They rented you a home, not an office. So say nothing about this.

CrazySka

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Your lease will have a clause obliging you to tell them if you want to move another person in to the apartment.


Also, whether you can work from there is not the landlords problem. They rented you a home, not an office. So say nothing about this.

You raise possibly valid points in both cases, I’ll have to check the lease to be certain, I’d say they do have that covered in there, however I’m not sure if 1. Applies to a new baby (surely there’s a good faith or even the fact that he’s a legal minor) and 2. Was not a choice, it was due to a global pandemic and is the only reason I’ve been able to pay the rent, I can’t be the only person in that situation. Has there been nothing put into law for this?
We’ve been here 6 years, paid market rents the whole time with increases, surely it’s our residence to treat as our home.
By the same token maybe there’s insurance issues with a homeowner turning their home into their workplace but are people changing their home insurance to commercial?
Thanks for the reply again but it is a bit of a sidetrack on the question of safety and if large works can be undertaken with tenants in situ. What if I worked nights for example and needed to sleep during the time of the work?

Graces7

CrazySka wrote: »

You raise possibly valid points in both cases, I’ll have to check the lease to be certain, I’d say they do have that covered in there, however I’m not sure if 1. Applies to a new baby (surely there’s a good faith or even the fact that he’s a legal minor) and 2. Was not a choice, it was due to a global pandemic and is the only reason I’ve been able to pay the rent, I can’t be the only person in that situation. Has there been nothing put into law for this?
We’ve been here 6 years, paid market rents the whole time with increases, surely it’s our residence to treat as our home.
By the same token maybe there’s insurance issues with a homeowner turning their home into their workplace but are people changing their home insurance to commercial?
Thanks for the reply again but it is a bit of a sidetrack on the question of safety and if large works can be undertaken with tenants in situ. What if I worked nights for example and needed to sleep during the time of the work?

Agree that these concerns are a sidetrack.

Please don't let it worry you . I mean you need to know when they are entering so that you can be there surely. It is your home. The issue re the rights of landlords to enter properties comes up here from time to time.

Jmc25

Graces7 wrote: »

Agree that these concerns are a sidetrack.

Please don't let it worry you . I mean you need to know when they are entering so that you can be there surely. It is your home. The issue re the rights of landlords to enter properties comes up here from time to time.

The management company have the right to enter to carry out works deemed necessary. This applies whether the apartment is owner occupied or rented.

Agree they should be reasonable and give notice and as much info as required. Honestly like others here I'd say give them a call OP. The fact that block is managed by the same company that owns your apartment should make it easier for you to get the info you're looking for, rather than the mgt company only communicating directly with the landlord, as is the case in some developments.

Gumbo

These are fire safety works to a Protected Entrance Hall within an apartment. It’s the sole, sterile place that is to remain smoke free to allow the occupants escape should a fire start. It’s the reason for the fire doors also.

This is a few days work.
Can you imagine a landlord that didn’t carry out the works? What’s worse.

If the baby is the sole concern, can your partner move in with a relative for a few days just to get it done and over with?

CrazySka

Gumbo wrote: »

These are fire safety works to a Protected Entrance Hall within an apartment. It’s the sole, sterile place that is to remain smoke free to allow the occupants escape should a fire start. It’s the reason for the fire doors also.

This is a few days work.
Can you imagine a landlord that didn’t carry out the works? What’s worse.


If the baby is the sole concern, can your partner move in with a relative for a few days just to get it done and over with?

That’s all fine, appreciate the reply, I don’t think I can keep labouring the point that I understand the works are necessary, I don’t know if with the scope of work the apartment is habitable, we pay Dublin apartment rents in this place and they’re going to be doing extensive works on the ceiling in as you say the main hall where the entrances to every room are.
They say 10 working days, I assume that straddles at least one weekend.
That’s 2 weeks where I don’t know if the apartment is going to be habitable.
I am asking the level of work that is acceptable for a landlord to do within an apartment and expect the tenants to continue being there during.
If you owned a house and the council told you they had to rip your ceiling out due to fire safety would you just say and grand, we’ll just stay downstairs??
It’s neither our fault that this fault exists nor does it seem urgent to me if they waited 2 years but hey maybe it is.
I guess the answer to the question is tenants have no rights in this scenario, we just potentially live in a building site for a couple of weeks and pay rent for it 🀷*♂️

frozenfrozen

Is it just that you want a refund of 2 weeks rent?

CrazySka

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Is it just that you want a refund of 2 weeks rent?

No.

I want to know if the apartment is going to be habitable during the works, I want to know if the works are going to cause undue stress and pressure on me and my family in what is a difficult situation.

If the apartment wasn’t habitable and I had to take my wife and small baby to a different accommodation I wouldn’t see why I should pay, would you? But I don’t really care about that and I don’t fancy my chances in that argument with a multinational company.

Are this company just doing major works in loads of apartments and not offering any alternatives in the hopes that only a small amount or no one checks their rights in this situation?

Do I want 2 weeks refund is a bit insulting now tbh, have you got a family or people you give a rats about? Would you like major building works going on 10 feet away from them?

I’ll talk to the company, if my responses now seem frustrated that’s because I am, this thread was to see what our options were, I’m none the wiser but thanks to everyone who replied, I’ll just play it by ear I guess.

Marcusm

If the work seriously interferes with your occupation of the apartment then it is breach of the quiet enjoyment clause and they should provide you with alternative accommodation. If you refuse entry to the workers to carry out the work, they cannot lawfully force their way in but you are impeding necessary works for fire safety. By any chance, have they been doing other apartments between letting a? If yea, why not ask to move permanently to another apartment which has already been remediated. Ultimately, engagement with the landlord/management company is the only solution.

CrazySka

Marcusm wrote: »

If the work seriously interferes with your occupation of the apartment then it is breach of the quiet enjoyment clause and they should provide you with alternative accommodation. If you refuse entry to the workers to carry out the work, they cannot lawfully force their way in but you are impeding necessary works for fire safety. By any chance, have they been doing other apartments between letting a? If yea, why not ask to move permanently to another apartment which has already been remediated. Ultimately, engagement with the landlord/management company is the only solution.

Thanks, yep agreed, I’ll see what they say, maybe they can explain it in a way that it doesn’t seem as big as it seems written down! Alternatively maybe they can arrange temporary accommodation in an unoccupied unit as you say