Employers struggling to fill positions with hundreds of thousands unemployed

Smee_Again

Eric Cartman wrote: »

And what happens for the 4 hours on a monday where those staff are also paid 14 an hour and theyve only served a coffee, the hour at the end of the shift where those 2 are cleaning up that nothing is sold, the first hour every day where nothing is sold, the 3 other days of the week where atleast 2 hours of the day those staff are just looking at aul lads sipping a pint for that time.

Youd probably have to put up the price of a pint by 1.50- 2.00 to make that 14 work out and would half your customers swap pub to save 2 quid a pint - absolutely.

Well, you wouldn’t have 2 of them on at that time.

I hope you run your business better than you run this fictional pub.

ypres5

is_that_so wrote: »

There was nothing wrong with the pay for all of those working in February 2020.

Because back then the ball was in the employers court, now workers in Ireland should take a leaf out of their American counterparts and bargain for better terms. Is that not part of business or are business owners capitalists for everyone else and socialists for themselves?

ypres5

Eric Cartman wrote: »

this is it, but now that it competes with free money to do nothing suddenly its a travesty to have to work.

Workers don't owe you their labour, it's down to you to attract them to your company. You're not entitled to them

Eric Cartman

ypres5 wrote: »

Workers don't owe you their labour, it's down to you to attract them to your company. You're not entitled to them

and abled bodied people aren't entitled to live off my tax money when theres work available.

in the labour market the government offering a 'sit on your hole' payment should not be competing with businesses for available labour.

ypres5

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and abled bodied people aren't entitled to live off my tax money when theres work available.

in the labour market the government offering a 'sit on your hole' payment should not be competing with businesses for available labour.

Well then give people favourable terms and they'll look to work for you. Again you're not entitled to people's labour, unless you want to bring back indentured servitude.

Padre_Pio

ypres5 wrote: »

Well then give people favourable terms and they'll look to work for you. Again you're not entitled to people's labour, unless you want to bring back indentured servitude.

Or cut them off at the knees and force them to get out looking.

Dempo1

Eric Cartman wrote: »

When you go on holiday what is the average room rate a night you would pay ?

There are hotels that pay well above minimum wage, usually because a lot of staff are paid to be infinitely more professional. These hotels are all usually 5 star and would command 200 + per person sharing per night.

If you're the type of person that thinks thats fair value for a hotel room then you can go and make that choice, but its a bit hypocritical of most to demand hotel staff be paid more and then go stay in a travel lodge or 3 star generic hotel where most staff would be on minimum wage to deliver the low prices consumers now expect.

You'll find any quality hotel will pay its staff well, its good business. Any hotel or indeed restaurant that has high staff turnover generally off poor and inconsistent service and rarely succeed. One notable Hotel in Kerry has thrived for over 40 years, some staff there have service in excess of 30 years.

There's a very simple equation to understand in the Hospitality sector.

Repeat Business is better than No Business.

You might forgive a dodgy Pint but not only will you not forgive a bad meal or stay, you'll likely share that experience with family, Colleagues, friend's.

LillySV

ypres5 wrote: »

Clearly the hotel industry doesn't pay enough considering they're currently clamouring for people to come work for them for **** pay.

Sure let’s pay everyone 50k and see where that takes us... u won’t be able to afford to stick your head out the door anymore as everything will be too costly ... a lot of businesses long gone bust... professionals gettin scarce.. when they seen they could get 50k handy as a shop assistant, they decided why bother working hard long hours for an extra 10k after 50% tax is applied to the difference in their pay. .... etc etc

Listen, everyone starts off on low pay... it’s a fact of life ... further work experience and higher qualifications is what will increase your wages... not sitting on a ridiculously high welfare payment that’s going on far too long. this payment will lead to many claimants getting lazy and staying on welfare ...

is_that_so

Dempo1 wrote: »

You'll find any quality hotel will pay its staff well, its good business. Any hotel or indeed restaurant that has high staff turnover generally off poor and inconsistent service and rarely succeed. One notable Hotel in Kerry has thrived for over 40 years, some staff there have service in excess of 30 years.

There's a very simple equation to understand in the Hospitality sector.

Repeat Business is better than No Business.

You might forgive a dodgy Pint but not only will you not forgive a bad meal or stay, you'll likely share that experience with family, Colleagues, friend's.

It's not always about the money. Recall a former manager saying that a good workplace was worth a minimum of €2K a year to employees. By its nature hospitality is limited in what those terms can be.

ypres5

LillySV wrote: »

Sure let’s pay everyone 50k and see where that takes us... u won’t be able to afford to stick your head out the door anymore as everything will be too costly ... a lot of businesses long gone bust... professionals gettin scarce.. when they seen they could get 50k handy as a shop assistant, they decided why bother working hard long hours for an extra 10k after 50% tax is applied to the difference in their pay. .... etc etc

Listen, everyone starts off on low pay... it’s a fact of life ... further work experience and higher qualifications is what will increase your wages... not sitting on a ridiculously high welfare payment that’s going on far too long. this payment will lead to many claimants getting lazy and staying on welfare ...

No one ever said pay people 50k would you stop with the ridiculous hyperbole. There is an option between paying everyone brain surgeon money and minimum wage but I guess it suits some people more to bash the working class so they know their place

TefalBrain

LillySV wrote: »

Sure let’s pay everyone 50k and see where that takes us... u won’t be able to afford to stick your head out the door anymore as everything will be too costly ... a lot of businesses long gone bust... professionals gettin scarce.. when they seen they could get 50k handy as a shop assistant, they decided why bother working hard long hours for an extra 10k after 50% tax is applied to the difference in their pay. .... etc etc

Listen, everyone starts off on low pay... it’s a fact of life ... further work experience and higher qualifications is what will increase your wages... not sitting on a ridiculously high welfare payment that’s going on far too long. this payment will lead to many claimants getting lazy and staying on welfare ...

Nobody is saying pay people 50k for starting positions but many of these chancers are paying less than 400 euro for a full weeks work before taxes ffs. That's slave labour.

Eric Cartman

Dempo1 wrote: »

You'll find any quality hotel will pay its staff well, its good business. Any hotel or indeed restaurant that has high staff turnover generally off poor and inconsistent service and rarely succeed. One notable Hotel in Kerry has thrived for over 40 years, some staff there have service in excess of 30 years.

There's a very simple equation to understand in the Hospitality sector.

Repeat Business is better than No Business.

You might forgive a dodgy Pint but not only will you not forgive a bad meal or stay, you'll likely share that experience with family, Colleagues, friend's.

Theres providing good service and treating staff well and paying reasonably. All very possible. But in general the hotel sector operates on thin margins.

In the pub sector though where the product is arguably the same , and margins are just as thin. Would somebody pay 2 euro more a pint to know that bars staff were well paid - I would argue very few would, and especially the very people giving out about this.

Smee_Again

LillySV wrote: »

Sure let’s pay everyone 50k and see where that takes us... u won’t be able to afford to stick your head out the door anymore as everything will be too costly ... a lot of businesses long gone bust... professionals gettin scarce.. when they seen they could get 50k handy as a shop assistant, they decided why bother working hard long hours for an extra 10k after 50% tax is applied to the difference in their pay. .... etc etc

Listen, everyone starts off on low pay... it’s a fact of life ... further work experience and higher qualifications is what will increase your wages... not sitting on a ridiculously high welfare payment that’s going on far too long. this payment will lead to many claimants getting lazy and staying on welfare ...

Why would someone who previously worked and earned c. €20K a year (to qualify for PUP of €350 p/w) suddenly become so lazy that they settle for €350 p/w, then €300, then €250 and finally €203?

It makes no sense.

Wabbit Ears

Dempo1 wrote: »

You might forgive a dodgy Pint but not only will you not forgive a bad meal or stay, you'll likely share that experience with family, Colleagues, friend's.

Had a meal at the local hotel yesterday, your comment is bang on accurate. it was diabolical. Seems like not a single one of their staff had any experience. I'm ok with giving teenagers a break, sure we all need to learn, but the entire staff being untrained teenagers? GTFO, wont be back.

Dempo1

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not always about the money. Recall a former manager saying that a good workplace was worth a minimum of €2K a year to employees. By its nature hospitality is limited on what those terms can be.

O I completely agree, Terms and conditions, being treated with respect, Bonus Schemes, rewards (non monetary)

I trained in this business when it was an actual profession, worked in 15 countries and managed some great teams. There was a concept known as Hospitality, generally created by happy and professional teams. Sadly, I left the industry when I saw standards drop. The advent of all those Ghost Hotels, developed and ran by clueless developers helped dilute standards generally, 1000"s of staff brought in on work permit programs, treated appalling and hardly motivated to care much about standards of service. This is not a critism of those staff, they received no training, supports and in most cases treated disgracefully.

I rate a Hotel or Restaurant primarily on its staff and service, when I see new faces constantly it's not a good sign.

rolling boh

The folks saying places should pay a good bit more wouldn't darken the door of these establishments because they they would complain about the outrageous prices been charged .

Eric Cartman

TefalBrain wrote: »

Nobody is saying pay people 50k for starting positions but many of these chancers are paying less than 400 euro for a full weeks work before taxes ffs. That's slave labour.

"many of these chancers" there aren't that many.

under 10% of jobs in Ireland are minimum wage
source : https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/just-11-4-of-minimum-wage-workers-in-ireland-at-risk-of-poverty-1.4531473

of the 10% of jobs that are minimum wage, the vast majority of employers are happily handing over the 400 euro a week for 40 hours.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lfsnmw/lfsnationalminimumwageestimatesq42019/

According to the CSO for Q4 2019 there were only 100,000 minimum wage workers in Ireland and only 20k people reporting being paid less than minimum wage , 55% of all those minimum wage workers are in the 15-24 age bracket,

so its 20k people in the whole land earning under minimum wage, the vast majority of them are under 24, quite a few are probably 16-17 where they're not entitled to the full minimum wage anyway ,

this fallacy that theres a whole cohort of employers mistreating workers up and down the land is false. less than half of a percent of our population is working for below minimum wage and theres some legitimate reasons for such.

<<snip>>

wes

rolling boh wrote: »

The folks saying places should pay a good bit more wouldn't darken the door of these establishments because they they would complain about the outrageous prices been charged .

Oh please, no need for outrageous prices at all. A small increase is very often all that is needed for a living wage and maybe the owners don't need 2 yachts...

Dempo1

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Had a meal at the local hotel yesterday, your comment is bang on accurate. it was diabolical. Seems like not a single one of their staff had any experience. I'm ok with giving teenagers a break, sure we all need to learn, but the entire staff being untrained teenagers? GTFO, wont be back.

Thank you, firstly it saddens me to hear of your experience, I posted earlier in the thread about a neighbours experience in a hotel in Galway last weekend, honestly the hotel should have stayed closed rather than offer such appalling service.

Secondly, yes I feel for teenagers thrown into these situations with absolutely no training or support.

Sadly I predict its going to be a terrible season ahead, as I've said before, Hotels particularly could have retained quality, trained staff of wage subsidy schemes but choose not too and along with actual customers, will suffer the consequences.

Eric Cartman

rolling boh wrote: »

The folks saying places should pay a good bit more wouldn't darken the door of these establishments because they they would complain about the outrageous prices been charged .

thats it. The people who shop amazon, buy food on discount in lidl, stay in hostels, sneak cans into a pub or drink in wetherspoons, then bemoan the wages of staff in Irish retail while calling the prices they sell anything for 'ripoffs'

jakiah

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Had a meal at the local hotel yesterday, your comment is bang on accurate. it was diabolical. Seems like not a single one of their staff had any experience. I'm ok with giving teenagers a break, sure we all need to learn, but the entire staff being untrained teenagers? GTFO, wont be back.

Stayed in a hotel myself over the weekend. Vast, vast majority of the staff were under 16. Had four meals, they got the order wrong on three of them. Disaster.

ypres5

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thats it. The people who shop amazon, buy food on discount in lidl, stay in hostels, sneak cans into a pub or drink in wetherspoons, then bemoan the wages of staff in Irish retail while calling the prices they sell anything for 'ripoffs'

I do none of those things so maybe stop building and demolishing strawmen and take an introspective look as to why there isn't a queue forming around the road of people looking to work for you.

Eric Cartman

ypres5 wrote: »

I do none of those things so maybe stop building and demolishing strawmen and take an introspective look as to why there isn't a queue forming around the road of people looking to work for you.

I don't know where you've gotten the idea that I am looking for minimum wage workers , but I'm not.

Eric Cartman

jakiah wrote: »

Stayed in a hotel myself over the weekend. Vast, vast majority of the staff were under 16. Had four meals, they got the order wrong on three of them. Disaster.

because lazy older people have decided to milk the system for a bit longer. Don't worry though that 15 year old kid will train up well and work hard and in 2 years time those 19-20 year olds who were too good for the work now won't have anywhere to go.

seamus

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Had a meal at the local hotel yesterday, your comment is bang on accurate. it was diabolical. Seems like not a single one of their staff had any experience. I'm ok with giving teenagers a break, sure we all need to learn, but the entire staff being untrained teenagers? GTFO, wont be back.

This.

Businesses that have a policy of revolving-door employees are rarely good quality ones. Keeping your wages on the floor to ensure that you only get students, immigrants and young people who are there to begrudgingly make a few quid, also ensures that customers will not enjoy going to your premises. They'll go in, buy and leave again. Maybe that's your business model. If so, then you don't get to whinge that nobody wants to work for you.

Businesses who pay enough money, even in the "lower" jobs, so that someone is happy to make a career out of it, build workplaces that customers want to go back to.

The hotel example is a perfect one, but a pub is a good one too. If you think about the best experiences you've had, the staff weren't all disinterested young ones and young fellas. They were all experienced, professional staff, from the top to the bottom of the organisation, who took pride in their work.

And the foundation stone of giving someone pride in their work is making it worth their while to do the work.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

When you go on holiday what is the average room rate a night you would pay ?

There are hotels that pay well above minimum wage, usually because a lot of staff are paid to be infinitely more professional. These hotels are all usually 5 star and would command 200 + per person sharing per night.

If you're the type of person that thinks thats fair value for a hotel room then you can go and make that choice, but its a bit hypocritical of most to demand hotel staff be paid more and then go stay in a travel lodge or 3 star generic hotel where most staff would be on minimum wage to deliver the low prices consumers now expect.

No idea. I do Airbnb or Stuart with friends.

jimmycrackcorm

seamus wrote: »

This.

Businesses that have a policy of revolving-door employees are rarely good quality ones. Keeping your wages on the floor to ensure that you only get students, immigrants and young people who are there to begrudgingly make a few quid, also ensures that customers will not enjoy going to your premises. They'll go in, buy and leave again. Maybe that's your business model. If so, then you don't get to whinge that nobody wants to work for you.

Businesses who pay enough money, even in the "lower" jobs, so that someone is happy to make a career out of it, build workplaces that customers want to go back to.

My youngling's new job is in retail on minimum wage. I also have a close friend who owns a retail business so business is a regular topic of discussion. The reality in retail is that it is very cut-throat and there is very little scope to increase basic wages because, we the public, are unwilling to pay for that.

Eric Cartman

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No idea. I do Airbnb or Stuart with friends.

Does price vs the cost of a hotel have any impact on your choice of Airbnb over a hotel ?

flexcon

Eric Cartman wrote: »

And what happens for the 4 hours on a monday where those staff are also paid 14 an hour and theyve only served a coffee, the hour at the end of the shift where those 2 are cleaning up that nothing is sold, the first hour every day where nothing is sold, the 3 other days of the week where atleast 2 hours of the day those staff are just looking at aul lads sipping a pint for that time.

Youd probably have to put up the price of a pint by 1.50- 2.00 to make that 14 work out and would half your customers swap pub to save 2 quid a pint - absolutely.

Initially that seems like a fair response, but to play devils advocate a bit further then with the same logic,

A pub paying 8euro a hour more to its (2X4euro) staff behind the bar (average, could be 1, or as high as 4 or whatever) means the pub would put 2euro on each pint?

That would suggest the pub is really not a steady business at all. Borderline insolvent. I know some pubs would struggle, but if they truly would struggle at an extra 4euro an hour per person, something is up.

I don't work in the sector so I might be missing some very obvious nuances

ypres5

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't know where you've gotten the idea that I am looking for minimum wage workers , but I'm not.

You certainly seem very invested in portraying workers claming PUP in the worst light possible while portraying business owners to be heroic pillars of industry under attack from the chattering classes. Your posts are borderline Ayn Rand fanfiction at this point.