Employers struggling to fill positions with hundreds of thousands unemployed

Oranage2

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Way it goes really.
If someone is getting 350 a week from pup. Why should he or she do a 40 hour week to earn a tiny bit more.

Pup won't be around forever tho.

Exactly this, who in their right mind would give back 350 euro a week when they don't have to work to suddenly start earning 250 euro a week to work 4 hours here 4 hours there and all the whole weekend

titan18

Oranage2 wrote: »

Exactly this, who in their right mind would give back 350 euro a week when they don't have to work to suddenly start earning 250 euro a week to work 4 hours here 4 hours there and all the whole weekend

Well that 350 a week won't stay, so if you're refusing to go back to work, you'll eventually end up on 200 a week and missed the chance of getting a job back.

Wanderer78

titan18 wrote: »

Well that 350 a week won't stay, so if you're refusing to go back to work, you'll eventually end up on 200 a week and missed the chance of getting a job back.

if you can afford it, you might be better off staying on the dole, a lot of min paid jobs are terrible

Oranage2

titan18 wrote: »

Well that 350 a week won't stay, so if you're refusing to go back to work, you'll eventually end up on 200 a week and missed the chance of getting a job back.

Maybe during the summer months but the other months up until Christmas are dead, you'd be earning exactly what you would be on welfare. Going from full time employment to retail isn't viable for many people.

Cilldara_2000

Gatling wrote: »

You own a t-shirt business ,6 employees earn €500 + for a 20 Hour week ,each t-shirt you sell makes you €3 pw t-shirt that's before your taxes and over heads including utilities and rent and equipment and advertising .

How long do you think you will last before you lose your home and everything else ,?

Perhaps a RL example would better illustrate your point than this fantasy. IRL the T shirt business employees will be in a large facility, possibly a sweatshop, somewhere in Asia earning between $10 and ~$80 a week.

maccored

Gatling wrote: »

You own a t-shirt business ,6 employees earn €500 + for a 20 Hour week ,each t-shirt you sell makes you €3 pw t-shirt that's before your taxes and over heads including utilities and rent and equipment and advertising .

How long do you think you will last before you lose your home and everything else ,?

the issue there isnt the hourly rate - its having too many employees that the business cant afford. either sell more teeshirts or have less staff. bad management isnt an excuse

maccored

Deleted User wrote: »

SF want to up it to €500 / week and continue it indefinitely, as do most of the "opposition".

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/58386

“I am once again calling on the Government to reinstate the full PUP of €350 per week, to ensure workers and families can keep afloat financially in these unprecedented times.

Now now - tell the truth and shame the devil

Cordell

CosmicFool wrote: »

I was in the local offie last week and a guy was chatting to one of the employees saying that he was asked to go back to work and he was better off on the pup payment so he refused.

Isn't this welfare fraud? PUP is for jobs that are lost temporary or forever, this particular job was not lost.

The DayDream

Cordell wrote: »

Isn't this welfare fraud? PUP is for jobs that are lost temporary or forever, this particular job was not lost.

The 'man in the offie' is about as real as the neighbour every middle class right winger has that has a huge flat screen telly with all the sky channels, drives an Audi and takes regular foreign holidays while on the dole. Don't get so worked up about it.

Cordell

every middle class right winger

You make it sound like it's something wrong with being a middle class right winger

mohawk

CosmicFool wrote: »

I was in the local offie last week and a guy was chatting to one of the employees saying that he was asked to go back to work and he was better off on the pup payment so he refused. He said and while laughing why would he bother doing a 40 hour work week for only 50 quid more. People like that piss me off. Leeches of society

Very, very short sighted of this person. PUP will come to an end and your down to €200 a week then. The job might find someone to replace them in the meantime. Do any of us except PUP to last past June or July.

RandomViewer

A lot of businesses aren't efficient, lots with too many staff,or lots of unproductive staff, this has shown up in the last year ,on the other side the year out for a lot of employers has given them time to re-evaluate what they'd been doing and a percentage will call it a day

RandomViewer

mohawk wrote: »

Very, very short sighted of this person. PUP will come to an end and your down to €200 a week then. The job might find someone to replace them in the meantime. Do any of us except PUP to last past June or July.

Think it'll be incremental ,

Dempo1

SnuggyBear wrote: »

The people on pup have also tax payers. They wouldn't be on pup if they weren't paying tax before the government shut down their industries. They also have to pay tax on that 350 when they start working again.

Would you like to be on pup or would you prefer to not have your job taken away from you? Answer that please.

Excellent response and yes you'll notice a certain "Cohort" who don't understand what PUP is and tge fact it's taxable, just one other point, 47% of PUP recepients actually get €350, tge remainder far less

Getting angry at PUP welfare recipients is the kind of dole bashing I just can’t get behind.

It's a bit confusing is this a welfare in general bashing thread or a PUP bashing thread?.

enricoh

Dempo1 wrote: »

Excellent response and yes you'll notice a certain "Cohort" who don't understand what PUP is and tge fact it's taxable, just one other point, 47% of PUP recepients actually get €350, tge remainder far less

The fact that it's taxable is even less of an incentive for people on the minimum wage to go back to work. Even more so if the government is paying their rent!

enricoh

enricoh wrote: »

The fact that it's taxable is even less of an incentive for people on the minimum wage to go back to work. Even more so if the government is paying their rent!

You do know PUP will be wound down by the end of the summer?

Smee_Again

mariaalice wrote: »

It's a bit confusing is this a welfare in general bashing thread or a PUP bashing thread?.

For some there’s no difference despite it being pointed out a few times in the thread.

Can’t let facts get in the way of a good rant.

enricoh

mariaalice wrote: »

You do know PUP will be wound down by the end of the summer?

It was getting wound down the end of last summer too!
A few sob stories on rte and sinn Fein outrage should see the government backtrack and get it safely into 2022.
Iirc up north their pup was 100£ a week we're 3 times that- god bless populism!

titan18

enricoh wrote: »

It was getting wound down the end of last summer too!
A few sob stories on rte and sinn Fein outrage should see the government backtrack and get it safely into 2022.
Iirc up north their pup was 100£ a week we're 3 times that- god bless populism!

I'd say theres no chance of it continuing when everything is reopened. We're bleeding money with it as a country and can't afford to keep it longer than necessary.

enricoh

enricoh wrote: »

It was getting wound down the end of last summer too!

Did something happen at the end of the summer that prolonged this. Second wave? Perhaps that’s the reason.

A few sob stories on rte and sinn Fein outrage should see the government backtrack and get it safely into 2022.
Iirc up north their pup was 100£ a week we're 3 times that- god bless populism!

Let me tell you a story. I have three neighbours who were or are on PUP. All were laid off because of covid. One has gone back to work in a crèche, one wants to move on from retail and is doing an online course, the other works in a restaurant and can’t go back until full opening. He desperately wants to move on from what is a small apartment for a family. They had a kid during lockdown.

All of them are paying mortgages now although some had a break for a while. All of them have partners who are helping with the mortgage.

My outrage at this setup is low to non existent.

Fred Cryton

SnuggyBear wrote: »

The people on pup have also tax payers. They wouldn't be on pup if they weren't paying tax before the government shut down their industries. They also have to pay tax on that 350 when they start working again.

Would you like to be on pup or would you prefer to not have your job taken away from you? Answer that please.

My answer is that only higher rate taxpayers paying 50% marginal tax rate are net contributors to the Exchequer. Everyone else is a net taker. Most of those higher rate private sector workers would be in the multinational sector.


So show some gratitude they were in a position to generously transfer billions to people economically idle for a year.

Fred Cryton

fvp4 wrote: »

Getting angry at PUP welfare recipients is the kind of dole bashing I just can’t get behind.

The only PUP recipients we are "bashing" are the ones nothing bothering to get off their backside and take up work again when its clearly on offer.

Fred Cryton

Fred Cryton wrote: »

My answer is that only higher rate taxpayers paying 50% marginal tax rate are net contributors to the Exchequer. Everyone else is a net taker. Most of those higher rate private sector workers would be in the multinational sector.


So show some gratitude they were in a position to generously transfer billions to people economically idle for a year.

As a higher rate tax payer let me assure you that most of us don’t think like that.

screamer

Being unable to fill positions is a combination of things. There are those going back to further education, people who have learned to live on less and bowing out of employment, career changes and of course there are the work shy and the cute hoors claiming and nixering too.
A lot of employers though, want experienced staff, they won’t take on people who have no experience and train them up, so really have zero sympathy for them. They want it all and give minimum wage, zero hour contracts and crappy hours in return.

Fred Cryton

Fred Cryton wrote: »

The only PUP recipients we are "bashing" are the ones nothing bothering to get off their backside and take up work again when its clearly on offer.

No you are clearly bashing everybody. And if some workers are taking this time to upskill so be it.

Mr.Sir

fvp4 wrote: »

No you are clearly bashing everybody. And if some workers are taking this time to upskill so be it.

Is upskilling at the moment difficult as lots of courses etc on hold.

enricoh

enricoh wrote: »

It was getting wound down the end of last summer too!
A few sob stories on rte and sinn Fein outrage should see the government backtrack and get it safely into 2022.
Iirc up north their pup was 100£ a week we're 3 times that- god bless populism!

So now it not outrage about something that is happing but outrages about something that might happen in the future?

Mr.Sir

Pup should be there for the people who may need it.

JustAThought

mariaalice wrote: »

So now it not outrage about something that is happing but outrages about something that might happen in the future?

I’m a bit confused - I thought PUP was specific payments for a specific job with a specific employer during the time the business was unviable or had to be shut. Surely when the company is open again revenue is advised and the employee cannot continue to claim the pup if s/he is wanted/needed back in work? Wasn’t it designed to keep jobs ‘there’ and retain people ‘in’ them until the job or company re-opened?

Cilldara_2000

JustAThought wrote: »

I’m a bit confused - I thought PUP was specific payments for a specific job with a specific employer during the time the business was unviable or had to be shut. Surely when the company is open again revenue is advised and the employee cannot continue to claim the pup if s/he is wanted/needed back in work? Wasn’t it designed to keep jobs ‘there’ and retain people ‘in’ them until the job or company re-opened?

That was the TWSS and is the EWSS. These are paid through the employer's payroll, the EWSS now taxable through the payroll too. The employer is refunded by Revenue.

The PUP applied where the employer laid them off altogether or they are self employed and claimed directly from DSP.

Mr.Sir

JustAThought wrote: »

I’m a bit confused - I thought PUP was specific payments for a specific job with a specific employer during the time the business was unviable or had to be shut. Surely when the company is open again revenue is advised and the employee cannot continue to claim the pup if s/he is wanted/needed back in work? Wasn’t it designed to keep jobs ‘there’ and retain people ‘in’ them until the job or company re-opened?

We have the situation now where those employees are no longer employed and can remain on pup.

Dempo1

enricoh wrote: »

The fact that it's taxable is even less of an incentive for people on the minimum wage to go back to work. Even more so if the government is paying their rent!

Not at all sure where you get that assertion from or the assumption government is paying PUP recepients rent. The point about taxation is PUP is not a social welfare payment in the true sense and despite attempts by some to demonise SW generally, they really should familiarise themselves about what PUP is.

I again reiterate rates of PUP fall into 4 categories 0, I doubt very much someone getting €300, €250 or €203 and paying a small amount of tax on same is incentivised not to return to work, it's an absurd argument.

Also worth pointing out, 1000"s of self employed on pup through no fault of their own and let me tell you SW didn't make the application process easy for them.

Smee_Again

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As a higher rate tax payer let me assure you that most of us don’t think like that.

Ditto

Dempo1

enricoh wrote: »

It was getting wound down the end of last summer too!
A few sob stories on rte and sinn Fein outrage should see the government backtrack and get it safely into 2022.
Iirc up north their pup was 100£ a week we're 3 times that- god bless populism!

Sob story, are you serious, are you aware there was a pandemic, up 600k people lost their jobs, the lowest amount of claims reduced to around 230k around June/July and that was sector's still seriously restricted, then we all know what happened, back to 600k in January 2021 needing this support to include 1000"s of self employed people.

Just extraordinary how ill informed some are especially when it's clear SF we're NOT alone in seeking the payment to continue, also you neglected to mention PUP rates were cut last September.

Pauliedragon

CosmicFool wrote: »

I was in the local offie last week and a guy was chatting to one of the employees saying that he was asked to go back to work and he was better off on the pup payment so he refused. He said and while laughing why would he bother doing a 40 hour work week for only 50 quid more. People like that piss me off. Leeches of society

He won't be laughing in a few weeks when his PUP is massively dropped and his employer has already replaced him plus employers are supposed to report people on the PUP who refuse to go back so the employer is no saint either.

Dempo1

Pauliedragon wrote: »

He won't be laughing in a few weeks when his PUP is massively dropped and his employer has already replaced him plus employers are supposed to report people on the PUP who refuse to go back so the employer is no saint either.

Hmmmm, what about all those employers struggling?????

A made up pile of nonsense, I was in my local office? Wtf? Post office perhaps.

I can gaurentee if the story was true, employer not only would have had to go down the complex dismissal route and definitely report the employee, however last time I checked, heresay not mentioned in employment law.

Dempo1

Fred Cryton wrote: »

The only PUP recipients we are "bashing" are the ones nothing bothering to get off their backside and take up work again when its clearly on offer.

Sadly that is not evident here, PUP recepients being demonised generally and it's disgraceful, Gone are days when we we're all in this Together. If there's one thing this pandemic has proven its Ireland has become a very very cynical place.

I don't doubt abuses, I don't doubt small levels of acting the maggot. People have been genuinely and seriously impacted by this pandemic and livelihoods taken away.

SW bashing is common place but to tarnish generally those on PUP is appalling and the article asking has it turned people into Netflix couch potato's just in extraordinarily bad taste but I'd expect nothing less from the indo.

Pauliedragon

Dempo1 wrote: »

Hmmmm, what about all those employers struggling?????

A made up pile of nonsense, I was in my local office? Wtf? Post office perhaps.

I can gaurentee if the story was true, employer not only would have had to go down the complex dismissal route and definitely report the employee, however last time I checked, heresay not mentioned in employment law.

I'm actually on your side on this one Dempo as you'll see if you go through my other posts on this thread.

enricoh

Dempo1 wrote: »

Sob story, are you serious, are you aware there was a pandemic, up 600k people lost their jobs, the lowest amount of claims reduced to around 230k around June/July and that was sector's still seriously restricted, then we all know what happened, back to 600k in January 2021 needing this support to include 1000"s of self employed people.

Just extraordinary how ill informed some are especially when it's clear SF we're NOT alone in seeking the payment to continue, also you neglected to mention PUP rates were cut last September.

Sinn Fein weren't alone? - colour me surprised!
Pup rates were cut last year for part timers, it's still e350 full time. And the government pay your rent now.
Half the country is getting scam calls trying to get their PPS number from foreign scammers, god only knows how much is leaving the country every week.

The DayDream

Cordell wrote: »

You make it sound like it's something wrong with being a middle class right winger

There is. It's the position of a thicko or coward, or both. To not be able to see that it is the upper class that are the ones hurting you AND the lower class, because to them you are one and the same. But due to being either delusional or stupid or having am inferiority complex, the middle class right wingers see the rich as a respectable authority and something they aspire to. Yet hey can't figure out why they aren't allowed into their club, and blame 'dole lifers' instead of realizing they are being kept out of the comfortable club by the ones who are comfortable - which should be obvious.

Instead of realizing this and doing something about it, they punch down because they're afraid of 'their betters', the 'job providers' and 'wealth creators'.

When in reality the golden circle simply doesn't include you and never will and you're just as big a cash cow for them as the lad who is buying the highly taxed booze and fags. They just placate you with different things like mortgages and electric cars.

The DayDream

Dempo1 wrote: »

If there's one thing this pandemic has proven its Ireland has become a very very cynical place.

Boards dot ie proved that for me within hours of creating a username

I think if so many of us, most of us, weren't so unhappy with our jobs due to either stress or low pay or most cases both, we really wouldn't care a jot about anyone who doesn't want to work.

The only reason people hate the dolies is they hate their jobs and want everyone to share that misery, it chaps their arse to think someone can escape it. They may say it's because their tax funds it but that is a useless argument really, if the dole was abolished the money they take off us worker bees would go to something else that likely would not benefit us, the government are hardly going to put it back into our wage packets.

I hope covid causes a workers revolution. Many of us work too much for too little and have no time for ourselves or family, and if you're stuck in retail or service industry you often end up not only with low wages but tyrannical managers on a power trip who nitpick and degrade their workers. And a lot of office workers don't want to go back to dealing with the politics and cliques.

We put up with all this to make someone else rich. I've worked throughout the pandemic because what we sell is deemed essential. I havent had a break at all, in fact being one of the few places open has meant we are busier than ever. We should be emergency only but we are not, I serve probably 20 people a day in close proximity. The company CEO is a British billionaire.

I may be jealous of those getting 350 a week to stay home but I don't begrudge them it. I'd be a right dope if I couldn't figure out it's the British billionaire that should be ashamed for making their workers risk their health while they stay home, and also using state funding when they could pay us to stay home themselves.

Dempo1

enricoh wrote: »

Sinn Fein weren't alone? - colour me surprised!
Pup rates were cut last year for part timers, it's still e350 full time. And the government pay your rent now.
Half the country is getting scam calls trying to get their PPS number from foreign scammers, god only knows how much is leaving the country every week.

Nonsense, the PUP rate reduced based on actual gross pay, not job status /Type. You may not be aware 10"s of thousands of FUL TIME employees were earning shy of €400 pw and duly had THEIR PUP rates cut to €300 PW these the facts.

The predictable SF bashing being brought into the mix is just deflection. All Opposition parties sought a continuation of PUP in some form, indeed some government TD'S also supported the idea.

Not at all sure what foreign scams have got to do with the argument, are you suggesting ligitimate claimants be tarnished with the same brush as fraudsters? Sadly there's fraud and scams in every walk of life this doesn't mean law abiding people should be penalised because of the disgraceful behaviour of some.

Dempo1

Pauliedragon wrote: »

I'm actually on your side on this one Dempo as you'll see if you go through my other posts on this thread.

Apologies, I got a little carried away with other outlandish and ill informed commentary.

Infini

When it comes down to it, people aren't going to work jobs with long hours with pay thats not going to even cover the cost of living expecially in Dublin. Some like that mouthy gobber outta the Shìte Moose might throw shade that people would rather stay at home and get €350 a week for netflix but why should anyone work for less than €350 considering costs etc. when they could just get better paid jobs?

Dempo1

Dempo1 wrote: »

Hmmmm, what about all those employers struggling?????

A made up pile of nonsense, I was in my local office? Wtf? Post office perhaps.

I can gaurentee if the story was true, employer not only would have had to go down the complex dismissal route and definitely report the employee, however last time I checked, heresay not mentioned in employment law.

Wasn’t PUP paid into bank accounts? To cut down on physical contact?

Cordell

The DayDream wrote: »

There is. It's the position of a thicko or coward, or both. To not be able to see that it is the upper class that are the ones hurting you AND the lower class, because to them you are one and the same. But due to being either delusional or stupid or having am inferiority complex, the middle class right wingers see the rich as a respectable authority and something they aspire to. Yet hey can't figure out why they aren't allowed into their club, and blame 'dole lifers' instead of realizing they are being kept out of the comfortable club by the ones who are comfortable - which should be obvious.

Instead of realizing this and doing something about it, they punch down because they're afraid of 'their betters', the 'job providers' and 'wealth creators'.

When in reality the golden circle simply doesn't include you and never will and you're just as big a cash cow for them as the lad who is buying the highly taxed booze and fags. They just placate you with different things like mortgages and electric cars.

Oh man there's so many chips on your shoulder you should be opening a chipper. If only that wouldn't require work and responsibility, which are right wing concepts.

Hating other classes and looking for other classes to blame for your own failures are not things right wingers do. Class struggle is a left thing.

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

Oh man there's so many chips on your shoulder you should be opening a chipper. If only that wouldn't require work and responsibility, which are right wing concepts.

Hating other classes and looking for other classes to blame for your own failures are not things right wingers do. Class struggle is a left thing.

Almost complete nonsense, the visceral hatred of lone parents or those in social housing, etc on this forum is very entrenched

Cordell

mariaalice wrote: »

Almost complete nonsense, the visceral hatred of lone parents or those in social housing, etc on this forum is very entrenched

I'm not saying it's not real, but begrudging others is not a political stance and definitely not a right wing one.