Pieta

Mikey..

Is there any breakdown of how many counselling hours provided by pieta house

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There really are? The CEO of any organisation is a figurehead position. The whole idea of a voluntary organisation is that they do what they do because they are passionate about the organisations aims. Plenty of organisations run and staffed entirely by volunteers do exist, and they use their qualifications in their roles for the benefit of the organisation, not simply to benefit themselves.

Then there are organisations who’s purpose appears to be creating and maintaining jobs for themselves, dependent upon funding from the public and Government, without which they would be able to fund €100k salaries for the people on their Board of Directors, which is why organisations like Pieta House find themselves in the position they’re in now -


Pieta House has been told to “review” its structure and operations in a bid to bridge the financial gap from the collapse in its fundraising.

The mental health charity, a Section 39 agency which normally receives 20% of its funding from the HSE, has been profoundly affected by the Covid-19 pandemic, leading the Government to inject a one-off payment of just under €700,000 to mitigate the effects of the virus.

So-called Section 39 agencies are voluntary organisations based on a public-private funding model, with wages paid from both private funding and State bodies.

The State has service level agreements (SLAs) - a type of agreement which defines the expected level of service and the penalties for non-attainment of same - in place with most Section 39 agencies, including Pieta.

Even before the onset of Covid the charity had endured a torrid 2019, recording losses of more than €710,000 due to a shortfall in income from its Darkness into Light event. That same event was cancelled for 2020 due to the ongoing Covid crisis.

Last year Pieta had turnover of €13.4 million, but also recorded expenditure of €14.1 million.


Pieta to review its operations after funding collapse


If a Board of Directors makes a decision to spend most of their funding on salaries, that leaves little funding to provide services. Basic arithmetic really that a four year old could figure out.

The directors don’t get paid. What should a charity that deals with mental health issues spend its money on?

Bannasidhe

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

How much should the CEO of an organisation that employs 200 people be paid?

It would very much depend on how that organisation generates the revenue to employ those 200 people.

Mrs OBumble

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Zero. The clue is in the type of organisation it is - a charity. Plenty of much larger voluntary organisations than Pieta where the management are volunteers, and the staff are volunteers, all qualified in what they do.

Name some.

NIMAN

Some of these charities do sterling work but some have huge incomes and outgoings. Not to mention employees.

I think the Peter McVerry Trust is a €50mill annual business. Thats a lot of money. I always wondered why there wasn't more consolidation of all the homeless charities to try to solve the issue?

As for Pieta, I'm not making any comments on wages or how its run, but its one of those 'poster' charities that seem to get plenty of positive media coverage. Same for PMV Trust, Jack and Jill etc. Can't see Prime Time doing any investigations into how they are run tbh.

But the recent Bothar news shows that we shouldn't just accept zero light being shone upon charities and how they spend our money.

Mrs OBumble

One eyed Jack wrote: »

spend most of their funding on salaries, that leaves little funding to provide services.

But the services they provide are the work that the salaried people do! Without the salaries, you have no services.

Professor Moriarty

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There really are? The CEO of any organisation is a figurehead position. The whole idea of a voluntary organisation is that they do what they do because they are passionate about the organisations aims. Plenty of organisations run and staffed entirely by volunteers do exist, and they use their qualifications in their roles for the benefit of the organisation, not simply to benefit themselves.

Then there are organisations who’s purpose appears to be creating and maintaining jobs for themselves, dependent upon funding from the public and Government, without which they would be able to fund €100k salaries for the people on their Board of Directors, which is why organisations like Pieta House find themselves in the position they’re in now -


Pieta House has been told to “review” its structure and operations in a bid to bridge the financial gap from the collapse in its fundraising.

The mental health charity, a Section 39 agency which normally receives 20% of its funding from the HSE, has been profoundly affected by the Covid-19 pandemic, leading the Government to inject a one-off payment of just under €700,000 to mitigate the effects of the virus.

So-called Section 39 agencies are voluntary organisations based on a public-private funding model, with wages paid from both private funding and State bodies.

The State has service level agreements (SLAs) - a type of agreement which defines the expected level of service and the penalties for non-attainment of same - in place with most Section 39 agencies, including Pieta.

Even before the onset of Covid the charity had endured a torrid 2019, recording losses of more than €710,000 due to a shortfall in income from its Darkness into Light event. That same event was cancelled for 2020 due to the ongoing Covid crisis.

Last year Pieta had turnover of €13.4 million, but also recorded expenditure of €14.1 million.


Pieta to review its operations after funding collapse


If a Board of Directors makes a decision to spend most of their funding on salaries, that leaves little funding to provide services. Basic arithmetic really that a four year old could figure out.

A CEO is not a "figurehead".

You are missing the essential point. Just like another poster trying to compare Pieta House with Mens Sheds. Pieta House employs professional therapists to provide therapy and admin staff to support them. Pieta House has 200 employees. It is not a voluntary organisation populated by volunteers.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But the services they provide are the work that the salaried people do! Without the salaries, you have no services.

You might as well be talking to the wall.

WoollyRedHat

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Here's the problem. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. You can't just pluck Joe Bloggs off the assembly line and give him the responsibility of running the factory. Suitably qualified and experienced people won't take the responsibility of running a large organisation without commensurate pay. So you pay someone suitably qualified and experienced or you employ someone who isn't suitably qualified and experienced.

Going to have to pull you up on that, it's a completely fallacy when it comes to people involved in Irish governance, we have paid people handsomely in the past and they proven themselves to be incompetent and sometimes corrupt. Paying someone 500k (as an example) doesn't always mean you'll get the best person for the job.

Also surely the real issue is the low-pay given to the therapists, what's your opinion on that?

karlitob

lawred2 wrote: »

What a ridiculous response.

What has analysis of the NHS structures got to do with the current structures of the HSE?

No it’s not a ridiculous response. Your comment was ridiculous.

It was a comparison of similar health services. Just like oecd data is used, just like the INMO references the nhs, just like the public health doctors referenced it in their recent salary upgrade, just like everyone references it in terms of waiting list, just like TDs reference it in treatment abroad - cataracts and hip surgeries, just like government did when developing major trauma services etx.

If you haven’t heard the HSE being compared to the nhs then you’ve been living under a rock.

A poster said there was too many managers. I disagreed and referenced the kings fund. It’s a comparator for context and discussion. I just didn’t realise I had to have permission from you to use it. If you don’t like it, then please reference something else. Of course you’ll accept that your opinion on the required number of managers in the HSE is worth sfa.

rob316

This ****e again,because it's a charity they should be paid minimum wage. 120k is on the low side for a CEO of a national organization of this profile, she has probably been headhunted by others in the private sector for even more money.

" Pay peanuts get monkeys"

Smee_Again

Smee_Again wrote: »

How many people in Ireland manage a business with annual income of over €13m.

I don’t have much time for charities but if we’re going to use them to provide much needed services then we need properly qualified people to run them.

The CEO of a private company isn’t really the same as a charity. There’s just not the same market pressures.

It’s legitimate to ask what this organisation is doing and how effective it is.

karlitob

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Going to have to pull you up on that, it's a completely fallacy, we have paid people handsomely in the past and they proven themselves to be incompetent and sometimes corrupt. Paying someone 500k (as an example) doesn't always mean you'll get the best person for the job.

Also surely the real issue is the low-pay given to the therapists, what's your opinion on that?

Agreed.

It all depends on qualifications for therapists of course. HSE salary has them at €55k. A very comparable rate of pay when compete to their clinical colleagues - social workers, physio, junior docs. Bring em in the fold and hire directly.

Professor Moriarty

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It would very much depend on how that organisation generates the revenue to employ those 200 people.

No. You either pay to get suitable people or you don't. How much should an organisation that employs 200 people across 13 centres pay its CEO to take full responsibility for the management of those people and the centres?

Mrs OBumble

karlitob wrote: »

Agreed.

It all depends on qualifications for therapists of course. HSE salary has them at €55k. A very comparable rate of pay when compete to their clinical colleagues - social workers, physio, junior docs. Bring em in the fold and hire directly.

A 55k salary equates to about €27.50 per hour, FYI.

karlitob

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There really are? The CEO of any organisation is a figurehead position. The whole idea of a voluntary organisation is that they do what they do because they are passionate about the organisations aims. Plenty of organisations run and staffed entirely by volunteers do exist, and they use their qualifications in their roles for the benefit of the organisation, not simply to benefit themselves.

Then there are organisations who’s purpose appears to be creating and maintaining jobs for themselves, dependent upon funding from the public and Government, without which they would be able to fund €100k salaries for the people on their Board of Directors, which is why organisations like Pieta House find themselves in the position they’re in now -


Pieta House has been told to “review” its structure and operations in a bid to bridge the financial gap from the collapse in its fundraising.

The mental health charity, a Section 39 agency which normally receives 20% of its funding from the HSE, has been profoundly affected by the Covid-19 pandemic, leading the Government to inject a one-off payment of just under €700,000 to mitigate the effects of the virus.

So-called Section 39 agencies are voluntary organisations based on a public-private funding model, with wages paid from both private funding and State bodies.

The State has service level agreements (SLAs) - a type of agreement which defines the expected level of service and the penalties for non-attainment of same - in place with most Section 39 agencies, including Pieta.

Even before the onset of Covid the charity had endured a torrid 2019, recording losses of more than €710,000 due to a shortfall in income from its Darkness into Light event. That same event was cancelled for 2020 due to the ongoing Covid crisis.

Last year Pieta had turnover of €13.4 million, but also recorded expenditure of €14.1 million.


Pieta to review its operations after funding collapse


If a Board of Directors makes a decision to spend most of their funding on salaries, that leaves little funding to provide services. Basic arithmetic really that a four year old could figure out.

Voluntary as per the health act 1970. All of the major Dublin hospitals are ‘voluntary’ by the definition of the health act. In that instance, they’re section 38. Section 39 are different - usually smaller and can set their own salaries.

You misunderstand voluntary on that context.

anplaya27

Im Deaf and an ISL user. It's well documented Deaf people are extremely vulnerable regarding mental health.

Research has found time and time again Deaf people who use a sign language as their first language are four times more likely to have mental health issues such as anxiety, depression, bipolar, schizophrenia and are unfortunately twice as likely to take their own life than someone who can hear. These issues have a lot to do with problems we face in our lifetime regarding marginalisation, exclusion, prejudice, discrimination, ableism, audism and so on from an early age. Recent research in several Deaf communities in different countries workdwide has also shown that that mental health problems have been hugely and extremely excarbarated by the Coronarus pandemic.

The ethos of Pieta House is 'Open to All' .

Whilst it's a nice tagline, its quite simply not true. They dont offer their services to members of the Deaf community who use Irish Sign Language as their first language. There have been stories of Deaf people seeking help being turned away by them. Theyve been telling members of the Irish Deaf community for years who are asking for supports to be put in place that its a work in progress and then fobbing them off with the same generic reply.

They're happy enough to take money that is raised from Deaf people and their families but wont offer them their services.

They made allegedly 7 million yesterday.

Why cant they use some of this money to finally put those supports theyve been promising us for several years ? Are Deaf peoples lives worth less than those that can hear? Unfortunately, by being unable to access such supports, it does seem to be the case to me.

Professor Moriarty

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Going to have to pull you up on that, it's a completely fallacy when it comes to people involved in Irish governance, we have paid people handsomely in the past and they proven themselves to be incompetent and sometimes corrupt. Paying someone 500k (as an example) doesn't always mean you'll get the best person for the job.

Also surely the real issue is the low-pay given to the therapists, what's your opinion on that?

She is not paid 500k. It's a total of 150k.

Therapists in Pieta House work 12-20 hours per week. Considering the average part-time hourly rate in Ireland is 16 euros an hour, is 24 euros an hour low pay?

karlitob

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A 55k salary equates to about €27.50 per hour, FYI.

I’m not sure what your point is here. €27.5 per hour equates to about 45c per minute, FYI.

lawred2

karlitob wrote: »

No it’s not a ridiculous response. Your comment was ridiculous.

It was a comparison of similar health services. Just like oecd data is used, just like the INMO references the nhs, just like the public health doctors referenced it in their recent salary upgrade, just like everyone references it in terms of waiting list, just like TDs reference it in treatment abroad - cataracts and hip surgeries, just like government did when developing major trauma services etx.

If you haven’t heard the HSE being compared to the nhs then you’ve been living under a rock.

A poster said there was too many managers. I disagreed and referenced the kings fund. It’s a comparator for context and discussion. I just didn’t realise I had to have permission from you to use it. If you don’t like it, then please reference something else. Of course you’ll accept that your opinion on the required number of managers in the HSE is worth sfa.

You can't take one set of data about a particular organisation and apply it to another.

That's rather basic.

Just because the HSE and the NHS get compared does not mean that they are same.

In fact, that's generally the whole motivation for comparison.

osarusan

120k could be great or terrible value or anywhere in between, depending on what the CEO actually does and how well they do it.

There's no doubt our lax laws on charities attracts Console-esque conmen, but you can't tar everybody with the sme brush, and when is somebody being hired to effectively run a business, them coming from a place like Bank of Ireland (rather than a background in charity) isn't a big issue for me.

karlitob

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

No. You either pay to get suitable people or you don't. How much should an organisation that employs 200 people across 13 centres pay its CEO to take full responsibility for the management of those people and the centres?

HSE ceo pay rates referenced above. €120k for that service is very much out of kilter with comparable HSE services. It’s why they selected to be section 39 (set their own pay) rather than section 38 (adopt HSE salary scales).

The ceo of St. James’s is far more bang for buck than pieta house ceo.

Professor Moriarty

karlitob wrote: »

HSE ceo pay rates referenced above. €120k for that service is very much out of kilter with comparable HSE services. It’s why they selected to be section 39 (set their own pay) rather than section 38 (adopt HSE salary scales).

The ceo of St. James’s is far more bang for buck than pieta house ceo.

That's a straw man argument. Should the CEO of Pieta House be paid the same as a nurse?

karlitob

lawred2 wrote: »

You can't take one set of data about a particular organisation and apply it to another.

That's rather basic.

Just because the HSE and the NHS get compared does not mean that they are same.

In fact, that's generally the whole motivation for comparison.

I didn’t ‘apply’ it. I used it for comparison and context. I never said they were ‘the same’ - you said that.

Using your reasoning, all issues should be done without context or comparison. League of ireland soccer and premiership. Vaccinations rate in ireland v uk. Politics in ireland v uk.

It must be very interesting to never contextualise a discussion topic. How’s it working out for you?

shtpEdthePlum

karlitob wrote: »

I think this is an important point. In my view, the Irish cancer society is a major pr company that drives policy to the detriment of others. Eg their campaign for free parking for cancer patients and their families. What gives them a right to demand free car parking? What about all the other patients in ireland? Why do I have to pay for parking cos I don’t have cancer and you do?
If you die in a hospice in ireland you get to keep all your assets, and you would’ve had significant home supports from the state. But if you die of old age - ie stroke, frailty, cardiac conditions etc - in a nursing home, the state takes 90% of your pension and 15% of your assets. And you want free car parking as well.

What a hill to die on, pardon the pun.

Never heard of anyone envious of cancer victims before.

WoollyRedHat

rob316 wrote: »

This ****e again,because it's a charity they should be paid minimum wage. 120k is on the low side for a CEO of a national organization of this profile, she has probably been headhunted by others in the private sector for even more money.

" Pay peanuts get monkeys"

The 'pay peanuts, get monkeys' phrase is bulll****,multiple Taoiseachs and gobdaw TDs are testament to that.

davetherave

Mikey.. wrote: »

Is there any breakdown of how many counselling hours provided by pieta house

https://a.storyblok.com/f/63481/x/462e76f838/pieta-house-financial-statements-2019.pdf

Page 9.

Bannasidhe

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

No. You either pay to get suitable people or you don't. How much should an organisation that employs 200 people across 13 centres pay its CEO to take full responsibility for the management of those people and the centres?

A charity is not a business in that it does not generate it's own income via the production of goods, the provision of services - it is reliant upon the state and donations plus, possibly but not always, some small income from the provision of heavily subsidised (i.e. loss making) services.

They are not subject to market forces - their 'competitors' are other charities working in the same area vying for the same pool of public money (via the State and private donations).

All this about 'suitable people' is so much hogswallish.
A banker with zero expertise in the running of a charity or the provision of mental health services is not qualified by any means other than being viewed as upper management material by a Board of Directors.

And if she is taking 'full responsibility' I await her enforcing paycuts across the upper levels of Pieta to help bring their books back into the black.

Or do you think in the private sector the person 'responsible' would be able to hold on to their generous package in the face of serious loss of income?

lawred2

karlitob wrote: »

I didn’t ‘apply’ it. I used it for comparison and context. I never said they were ‘the same’ - you said that.

Using your reasoning, all issues should be done without context or comparison. League of ireland soccer and premiership. Vaccinations rate in ireland v uk. Politics in ireland v uk.

It must be very interesting to never contextualise a discussion topic. How’s it working out for you?

You're all over the place.

You introduced analysis of the NHS to conclude that the HSE was under managed.

Bizarre really.

flazio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How much should the CEO of a large charity make in your opinion?

There should be no need for this charity in the first place. The role Pieta House play should be done by the Health Service, efficiently funded by a fair tax system.