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Pieta
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martingriff wrote: »As far as free parking I believe anyone who has to stay in hospital should have it. Except of a hospice what has a cancer suffer got over you. Of course cancer organisation will do what they can for the people they represent. EVERY ORGANISATION WHO REPRESENT A GROUP WILL DO THAT. Why pick on cancer
Thanks for proving my point.0 -
Professor Moriarty wrote: »I refer to the piece in bold. Please show me any similar organisation that employs 200 people which is being run by a suitably qualified person who is being paid nothing?
That’s some very specific criteria you’re setting there, but I think Adi Roche would be suitably qualified to run an organisation similar to Pieta House (the organisation she runs only has a staff of 10 employees though as opposed to 200 paid employees) -
- No salary, no benefits, no pension, no perks
- Oversees 10 staff, revenue of €2,335,519 in 2014
Charity provides healthcare and humanitarian aid to children in regions affected by the Chernobyl nuclear disaster (Belarus, Ukraine, parts of Russia), and arranges annual holidays to Irish homes for the children.
- Received 77% of its revenue from public donations in 2014.
REVEALED: The charities with CEOs still earning more than €100,000
About the charity itself -
In 1991, Roche founded the Chernobyl Children International, to provide aid to the children of Belarus, Western Russia and Ukraine following the Chernobyl nuclear disaster of 1986. The organisation works in the areas of international development as well as medical and humanitarian aid. It works with children and families who continue to be affected by the disaster.
Under Roche's leadership, Chernobyl Children International (CCI) has delivered over €105 million to the areas most affected by the Chernobyl nuclear disaster and has enabled over 25,500 children affected by the Chernobyl disaster to come to Ireland for vital medical treatment and recuperation.
CCI's 'Homes of Hope' programme provides an alternative to state institutions through the use of 30 homes that have been purchased and renovated. This is the equivalent of closing two orphanages in Belarus. It takes children out of orphanages, and places them in loving homes of their own.
CCI has built and equipped the first ever baby hospice in Belarus. CCI has provided expert training to the staff to ensure the best care to patients. CCI pioneered the ground breaking adoption agreement between Ireland and Belarus, on behalf of the Government of Ireland. This agreement allowed hundreds of children to be adopted into Ireland.
Mental health and disability development: Since 1986 there has been a marked increase in children being born with mental and physical disabilities. CCI has pioneered the Human Rights of people incarcerated in institutional care. This is at the very heart of the CCI mission.
4,000 life-saving cardiac surgeries have been performed and enabled over the last fifteen years in collaboration with Dr. William Novick of Novick Cardiac Alliance.
Adi Roche0 -
CEO's of charitable orgs have too high a profile in this country. Fergus Finlay is another one. We dont need to hear soundbites all the time, get on and do your work
FWIW I think he is a reasonable guy, but why on earth is he brought out as a mini celebrity talking head on every second panel?0 -
Professor Moriarty wrote: »Yeah. Let's get someone highly qualified and very experienced to manage an organisation employing 200 people across 13 centres throughout Ireland. Let's pay the minimum wage. It'll be grand.
Ehhh that’s disgusting. Minimum wage?!!!
It’s a charity. They should be doing it for free.
#tonguefirmlyincheek0 -
Thanks for proving my point.
Sorry you will have to explain that one. Is it because I kept with the one you brought up. There are many single cause organisation. Wheelchair association Spina bifida Association homeless associations, multiple scoliosis, Dementia Association
. Also by the way hospices are not just for cancer it is for anyone with a terminal disease0 -
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Well you don’t seem to know much about this topic either. I would suggest that you read up on the nccp so that you’re more informed.
This is an irrelevancy. Cancer treatment and counselling services are very different. Pointless comparison. Wrt my being uninformed in this area, you couldn't be more wrong.The HSE hasn’t washed its hands of anything. Government set policy and provide funding. The HSE implements. I’m happy to listen to what specific issues you have with the implementation of mental health services by the HSE. And how perfect the government policy - and funding - is that the HSE is messing up.
You yourself said that waiting lists are long for HSE counselling services. Regarding the difference between the HSE and the government, again that is an irrelevance in the context of a charity providing psychological support because the HSE/government can't or won't. Strangely, you are deflecting from your own point.Just so you know - the HSE doesn’t fund anything. Government funds. The HSE transfers the funds where it is directed by government.
Everybody knows that.It’s also important to note that it is very difficult getting consultant psychiatrists to work in and lead services in the community. It’s just not appealing to them. They want to work in hospitals where they get the training, see the interesting stuff and get to be a consultant. It’s hard. And there’s not enough of them being trained.
Irrelevant. Psychiatry is of minor importance in the provision of counselling services.Also. The HSE doesn’t control training. Independent colleges determine who is accepted, how many are accepted and what the standard of training is. Clearly there is a relationship. But - for example - it is the Irish college of gps who determine the number of gps allowed onto training schemes for decades. The consequence is ⅓ of all GPs will retire in the next decade and there are insufficient numbers to replace them. Gps wanted a closed shop - they got it. And now you and me reap the consequence. This is a government issue that they didn’t sort out. The HSE has little control on planning the availability and skill set of their staff
Irrelevant. The number of GPs is not important to the provision of psychological support by the government via the HSE.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »That’s some very specific criteria you’re setting there, but I think Adi Roche would be suitably qualified to run an organisation similar to Pieta House (the organisation she runs only has a staff of 10 employees though as opposed to 200 paid employees) -
- No salary, no benefits, no pension, no perks
- Oversees 10 staff, revenue of €2,335,519 in 2014
Charity provides healthcare and humanitarian aid to children in regions affected by the Chernobyl nuclear disaster (Belarus, Ukraine, parts of Russia), and arranges annual holidays to Irish homes for the children.
- Received 77% of its revenue from public donations in 2014.
REVEALED: The charities with CEOs still earning more than €100,000
About the charity itself -
In 1991, Roche founded the Chernobyl Children International, to provide aid to the children of Belarus, Western Russia and Ukraine following the Chernobyl nuclear disaster of 1986. The organisation works in the areas of international development as well as medical and humanitarian aid. It works with children and families who continue to be affected by the disaster.
Under Roche's leadership, Chernobyl Children International (CCI) has delivered over €105 million to the areas most affected by the Chernobyl nuclear disaster and has enabled over 25,500 children affected by the Chernobyl disaster to come to Ireland for vital medical treatment and recuperation.
CCI's 'Homes of Hope' programme provides an alternative to state institutions through the use of 30 homes that have been purchased and renovated. This is the equivalent of closing two orphanages in Belarus. It takes children out of orphanages, and places them in loving homes of their own.
CCI has built and equipped the first ever baby hospice in Belarus. CCI has provided expert training to the staff to ensure the best care to patients. CCI pioneered the ground breaking adoption agreement between Ireland and Belarus, on behalf of the Government of Ireland. This agreement allowed hundreds of children to be adopted into Ireland.
Mental health and disability development: Since 1986 there has been a marked increase in children being born with mental and physical disabilities. CCI has pioneered the Human Rights of people incarcerated in institutional care. This is at the very heart of the CCI mission.
4,000 life-saving cardiac surgeries have been performed and enabled over the last fifteen years in collaboration with Dr. William Novick of Novick Cardiac Alliance.
Adi Roche
She's an admirable person indeed. So she runs an organisation with a tenth of the number of employees of Pieta House? Hmmm.0 -
Professor Moriarty wrote: »She's an admirable person indeed. So she runs an organisation with a tenth of the number of employees of Pieta House? Hmmm.
Does she, or does she not qualify as a suitable person to be CEO of a similar organisation such as Pieta House? What she can do with 10 staff, they can’t do with 200, and as CEO she provides a far better return for investment than the CEO of Pieta House I think you’ll agree?0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Does she, or does she not qualify as a suitable person to be CEO of a similar organisation such as Pieta House? What she can do with 10 staff, they can’t do with 200, and as CEO she provides a far better return for investment than the CEO of Pieta House I think you’ll agree?
No. Managing 200 employees is vastly different to heading an organisation of 10 people. You need experience in corporate strategy and HR.0 -
Sorry if I missed it but what do they actually do? As in has anyone used their services?0
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Professor Moriarty wrote: »No. Managing 200 employees is vastly different to heading an organisation of 10 people. You need experience in corporate strategy and HR.
The CEO in any organisation doesn’t manage employees, that’s not their function, no matter how many employees are employed by an organisation - not-for-profit, non-profit or for-profit enterprise. They make decisions at the highest levels based upon reports from the people who report directly to them, be they CFOs or COOs or HR Directors, etc.
Clearly as the CEO of the organisation she has leadership over, Adi Roche has the organisational skills necessary to be able to run and maintain an organisation which is an international organisation which requires skills in negotiation and logistics. Adi herself doesn’t have any background in logistics, but she is able to identify and work with people who do.
As it happens, I looked up the Novick Cardiac Alliance too which is mentioned in the article and the CEO is William Novick -
In the ensuing 20 years Dr. Novick and his teams worked in 46 cities in 32 countries, providing 7411 children with operations and medical care. Most countries received a sustained repeated pattern of assistance including 2 to 4 visits per year for at least 3 years, with 90% of such programs now performing independent pediatric cardiac surgery.
Over the years Dr. Novick recruited a group of clinical experts in the field of pediatric cardiac care who shared his passion and vision to help eradicate the suffering caused by congenital heart disease in the developing world.
https://cardiac-alliance.org/about/
He doesn’t have a background in management either, but what he has, is a passion for what he does, and he gathered a team around him who share his passion, as did Adi Roche. This is in contrast to what Pieta House and similar organisations to them do which is to parachute in a CEO from the private sector who don’t give a toss for the organisations aims, and are merely in the position to raise the public profile of the organisation. They don’t manage the organisation, nor do they manage it’s employees, no matter how many there are.0 -
Firing shots at these organisations is all very well, but the Government aren't stepping up to the plate and when the day comes that someone close to you in a desperate state, is stopped from taking their own lives as a result of their work, you won't give two ****s what their CEO is paid.0
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Smee_Again wrote: »How many people in Ireland manage a business with annual income of over €13m.
I don’t have much time for charities but if we’re going to use them to provide much needed services then we need properly qualified people to run them.
Personally I'd pay any of them top dollar,saved my son 100 percent, different boy now a few yrs on ,went from a suicide plan formulated to a normal young man of 18 atm, waiting to get to UCC in September to begin his hopes of becoming a secondary teacher0 -
ShagNastii wrote: »Ehhh that’s disgusting. Minimum wage?!!!
It’s a charity. They should be doing it for free.
#tonguefirmlyincheek
because its possible to pay normal things in life on minimum wage such as a mortgage etc0 -
This thread is a terrible example of one loud person taking over an entire topic and turning it into being about their strictly held (and unfortunately, ignorant) opinion. They've made it clear that a) they don't understand the role of management b) they don't understand the role of a CEO & c) they don't understand the difference between a) & b)
As someone who studied management, strategic management and CSOs including doing case studies on the management structure of two of the charities named in this thread - it's really frustrating to see someone like Professor Moriarty jump all over everyone with false truisms, strawmans and just plain insults. It's even more frustrating to see at least 5 other users post the nonsense argument "pay peanuts get monkeys", even though that statement is only about low pay and isn't a corollary for "if you pay more, you get better quality".
In all my studies I've never come across a rigorous academic paper that proves "paying more universally results in better employees", research is almost always aimed at the very different argument - underpaying employees leads to worse performance and undermines an organisation.
The (valid) argument that offering €30,000 for a CEO position will attract many people who are vastly incapable of doing such a role, in no way proves the argument that the more you pay the better the performance. They are entirely different propositions. It also ignores that pay exists on a continuum - arguing that €150k (after benefits) is potentially not value for money, doesn't mean you're arguing they should be paid minimum wage. That's a really dumb rebuttal and you'd expect people able to operate a keyboard to be smarter than that.
I've been lucky enough to work in a Public Voluntary Hospital for several years. The Hospital is operationally structured in terms of 'Clinical Directorates', each with an Ops Manager responsible for such. Each CD covers 600+ staff, across 8+ departments, and all include a mix of allied healthcare services/critical care/wards/admin. These managers are on a mixture of HSE Grade VII/VIIIs (50k-83k) and they are responsible for long-term strategy, day-to-day operations, and first point of call in any crisis. Even the General Support Services Manager (household, portering, telephony etc) manages 100+ people. These are very different roles from that of CEO and require a completely different skillset, but Moriarty conflates them willy-nilly. A CEO is responsible for strategy, direction, values, vision and for being the interface between staff & board - this is basic intro-to-management. A CEO's value for money isn't based on how many people are employed under them - that's the responsibility of managers. A CEO's value for money is about the previously mentioned intangibles and being able to demonstrate that they are able to provide a uniquely valuable blend of such to the organisation, increasing it's performance and capability.
Obviously, a charity with a strictly defined, narrow-in-scope and inherently motivational mission has less to gain from these intangibles. Arguably it would have more to gain from better marketing, or better operations for example;
One of the key metrics for assessing a charity's performance is 'cost to raise funds' - how much do they spend out of every €1 to raise that money?
Irish charities tend to do quite poorly, but Pieta House is shocking. Their flagship Darkness into Light raised €5.3million in 2019, but cost Pieta House €2.52million. Their other fundraising raised €5.4m but cost €1.1m.
26% of Pieta's expenditure is on 'fundraising'. Aware are another example, they spent €450k in 2019 to raise €753k, with only €1.2m actually spent on providing their services.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »The CEO in any organisation doesn’t manage employees, that’s not their function, no matter how many employees are employed by an organisation - not-for-profit, non-profit or for-profit enterprise. They make decisions at the highest levels based upon reports from the people who report directly to them, be they CFOs or COOs or HR Directors, etc.
Clearly as the CEO of the organisation she has leadership over, Adi Roche has the organisational skills necessary to be able to run and maintain an organisation which is an international organisation which requires skills in negotiation and logistics. Adi herself doesn’t have any background in logistics, but she is able to identify and work with people who do.
As it happens, I looked up the Novick Cardiac Alliance too which is mentioned in the article and the CEO is William Novick -
In the ensuing 20 years Dr. Novick and his teams worked in 46 cities in 32 countries, providing 7411 children with operations and medical care. Most countries received a sustained repeated pattern of assistance including 2 to 4 visits per year for at least 3 years, with 90% of such programs now performing independent pediatric cardiac surgery.
Over the years Dr. Novick recruited a group of clinical experts in the field of pediatric cardiac care who shared his passion and vision to help eradicate the suffering caused by congenital heart disease in the developing world.
https://cardiac-alliance.org/about/
He doesn’t have a background in management either, but what he has, is a passion for what he does, and he gathered a team around him who share his passion, as did Adi Roche. This is in contrast to what Pieta House and similar organisations to them do which is to parachute in a CEO from the private sector who don’t give a toss for the organisations aims, and are merely in the position to raise the public profile of the organisation. They don’t manage the organisation, nor do they manage it’s employees, no matter how many there are.
As you say, these people don't manage the organisation. The CEO of Pieta House manages a team of 200 employees. It's what she was hired to do. I'll leave it at that.0 -
Firing shots at these organisations is all very well, but the Government aren't stepping up to the plate and when the day comes that someone close to you in a desperate state, is stopped from taking their own lives as a result of their work, you won't give two ****s what their CEO is paid.
I disagree with that assessment tbh. Government are stepping up to the plate by providing €1Bn in funding for mental health supports -
Minister of State with responsibility for Mental Health and Older People Mary Butler said:
"I am delighted today to announce that more than €1 billion has been allocated to mental health in Budget 2021. This is an increase of €50 million on last year’s budget and comprises €38 million for new measures, including the continuation of COVID-19 supports, and €12 million to meet existing needs.
I’m well aware of a number of people who have had experience with Pieta House (experiences which vary considerably, as they do with any organisation), and still I find the way they operate as an organisation is questionable, because it’s inefficient and badly run with an horrendous amount of funding wasted on salaries and PR to promote the organisations growth in order to increase their public profile. There is no question they’re saving the State a fortune by the State not having to deal with administration and instead outsourcing services to organisations like Pieta, but it’s equally as important to question the ethics of a CEO position salary of €100k for an organisation which purports to be a charity.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »This thread is a terrible example of one loud person taking over an entire topic and turning it into being about their strictly held (and unfortunately, ignorant) opinion. They've made it clear that a) they don't understand the role of management b) they don't understand the role of a CEO & c) they don't understand the difference between a) & b)
As someone who studied management, strategic management and CSOs including doing case studies on the management structure of two of the charities named in this thread - it's really frustrating to see someone like Professor Moriarty jump all over everyone with false truisms, strawmans and just plain insults. It's even more frustrating to see at least 5 other users post the nonsense argument "pay peanuts get monkeys", even though that statement is only about low pay and isn't a corollary for "if you pay more, you get better quality".
In all my studies I've never come across a rigorous academic paper that proves "paying more universally results in better employees", research is almost always aimed at the very different argument - underpaying employees leads to worse performance and undermines an organisation.
The (valid) argument that offering €30,000 for a CEO position will attract many people who are vastly incapable of doing such a role, in no way proves the argument that the more you pay the better the performance. They are entirely different propositions. It also ignores that pay exists on a continuum - arguing that €150k (after benefits) is potentially not value for money, doesn't mean you're arguing they should be paid minimum wage. That's a really dumb rebuttal and you'd expect people able to operate a keyboard to be smarter than that.
I've been lucky enough to work in a Public Voluntary Hospital for several years. The Hospital is operationally structured in terms of 'Clinical Directorates', each with an Ops Manager responsible for such. Each CD covers 600+ staff, across 8+ departments, and all include a mix of allied healthcare services/critical care/wards/admin. These managers are on a mixture of HSE Grade VII/VIIIs (50k-83k) and they are responsible for long-term strategy, day-to-day operations, and first point of call in any crisis. Even the General Support Services Manager (household, portering, telephony etc) manages 100+ people. These are very different roles from that of CEO and require a completely different skillset, but Moriarty conflates them willy-nilly. A CEO is responsible for strategy, direction, values, vision and for being the interface between staff & board - this is basic intro-to-management. A CEO's value for money isn't based on how many people are employed under them - that's the responsibility of managers. A CEO's value for money is about the previously mentioned intangibles and being able to demonstrate that they are able to provide a uniquely valuable blend of such to the organisation, increasing it's performance and capability.
Obviously, a charity with a strictly defined, narrow-in-scope and inherently motivational mission has less to gain from these intangibles. Arguably it would have more to gain from better marketing, or better operations for example;
One of the key metrics for assessing a charity's performance is 'cost to raise funds' - how much do they spend out of every €1 to raise that money?
Irish charities tend to do quite poorly, but Pieta House is shocking. Their flagship Darkness into Light raised €5.3million in 2019, but cost Pieta House €2.52million. Their other fundraising raised €5.4m but cost €1.1m.
26% of Pieta's expenditure is on 'fundraising'. Aware are another example, they spent €450k in 2019 to raise €753k, with only €1.2m actually spent on providing their services.
How much should the CEO of Pieta House be paid?0 -
I've seen your argument style on this thread and you've made it eminently clear that attempting to discuss or debate anything with you is an entirely pointless exercise.Professor Moriarty wrote: »How much should the CEO of Pieta House be paid?0 -
I’m always sceptical about charities in Ireland and their use of donations made in good faith.
However, Pieta is one of the more necessary ones. They are there when you need them.
Regarding the CEOs salary, pay peanuts and you’ll get monkeys.0 -
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Professor Moriarty wrote: »As you say, these people don't manage the organisation. The CEO of Pieta House manages a team of 200 employees. It's what she was hired to do. I'll leave it at that.
They don’t manage the organisation, and the CEO of Pieta House does not manage a team of 200 employees. It’s not what she was hired to do. I provided you with examples of people who are the CEOs of charity organisations who are passionate about what they do and they are passionate about the aims of the organisation, and they would easily be suitably qualified for the CEO position in Pieta House. The reason why I imagine they don’t want the position is because they aren’t particularly passionate about the aims of the organisation.
That’s why even if tne position were €500k, it still wouldn’t be any reflection on a person’s abilities as a CEO, it would just mean that the CEO of the organisation is an incredibly well paid position for a charity organisation. If the charity doesn’t perform as expected by meeting goals set for the organisation, then that’s a reflection on the CEOs abilities, not a reflection on their salary.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I’m always sceptical about charities in Ireland and their use of donations made in good faith.
However, Pieta is one of the more necessary ones. They are there when you need them.
Regarding the CEOs salary, pay peanuts and you’ll get monkeys.
Pieta are not accessible to everyone so their ethos of being 'Open to All' is false.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »I’m always sceptical about charities in Ireland and their use of donations made in good faith.
However, Pieta is one of the more necessary ones. They are there when you need them.
Regarding the CEOs salary, pay peanuts and you’ll get monkeys.
Which ones are the unnecessary ones?0 -
Professor Moriarty wrote: »She is not paid 500k. It's a total of 150k.
Therapists in Pieta House work 12-20 hours per week. Considering the average part-time hourly rate in Ireland is 16 euros an hour, is 24 euros an hour low pay?
€24 an hour is extremely low pay for a qualified and accredited psychotherapist. They are working with the upper end of emotional distress and the potential for absorption of this in to themselves. Due to the intensity of the work 12 to 20hrs makes sense. It wouldn't be healthy for them to take on clients for 39hrs.0 -
I've a daughter a social care worker says Pieta house don't deal with anyone suicidal, they refuse and send them elsewhere. Is this true?0
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[Deleted User] wrote: »I've a daughter a social care worker says Pieta house don't deal with anyone suicidal, they refuse and send them elsewhere. Is this true?
Without any knowledge of pieta house, but knowledge of the health system - I would imagine that the only place where someone with active suicidal ideation should be assessed and treated is in a hospitals by a qualified psychiatrist who can make an assessment and determine whether someone should be admitted either voluntarily or involuntarily. Obviously involuntary admission have major legal and constitutional implications hence the mental health tribunals that are convened by legislation.
I think the difference is active suicidal ideation versus previous suicidal thoughts.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »I've seen your argument style on this thread and you've made it eminently clear that attempting to discuss or debate anything with you is an entirely pointless exercise.
And you come on to this thread but are unable to offer an opinion as to its premise. I trudged through your post. I won't waste my time with it. You obviously don't have any real managerial experience. So our engagement would indeed be pointless.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »€24 an hour is extremely low pay for a qualified and accredited psychotherapist. They are working with the upper end of emotional distress and the potential for absorption of this in to themselves. Due to the intensity of the work 12 to 20hrs makes sense. It wouldn't be healthy for them to take on clients for 39hrs.
Agreed. It would be unethical. 25 hours a week at a minimum of 40 euros an hour would be the optimum.0 -
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Badly fukt wrote: »I've a daughter a social care worker says Pieta house don't deal with anyone suicidal, they refuse and send them elsewhere. Is this true?
A difficulty with Pieta is there's a mismatch between their brand and what they actually do. They don't seem to deal with anything more than mild or moderate cases, complex issues, dual diagnosis and so on. Considering there's enormous public good will on their side, along with a pat on the back from the media, they should be more upfront about the limitations of their services.Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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