Liverpool FC Team Talk, Gossip, Rumours 2024/25

Osmosis Jones

We have so many problems but the two guarantees in every game it feels are a goal conceded within 10 minutes and James Milner inexplicably being subbed on to ill effect

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814976#Comment_119814976

Very tricky to sell either Keita or Ox, with both being free agents in the summer. Wouldn’t be in their own best interests to accept any move now when they can have their pick of a lot more options on a free, for more money, in 6 months.

Think we just have to accept they’re goners for nothing, and get someone in in January. We need a few bodies, so it doesn’t have to be the most special of midfielders - if we just got a high energy workhorse who’s decent in the ball it would go a long way, with a Tchoumani level fella coming in the summer as well.

hadepsx

If by some miracle the club managed to sell in January, how much do you think the club would get for keita? Hardly enough to purchase two midfielders anyway.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815041#Comment_119815041

I liked the Milner sub against Leeds - he instantly brought way more intensity to the position. Trent was playing so languidly, and that fed into the whole team - Milner came on and lit a fire under the play and everything started moving much faster. Wouldn’t particularly blame him for the goal.

WealthyB

There's a (lengthy) letter in the F365 mailbox today that perfectly explains why so many have issue with FSG and the "living within our means" narrative; it follows below.

https://www.football365.com/news/mailbox-liverpool-klopp-fsg-out-alex-fergsuon-man-utd-arsenal-ben-white

...I get annoyed when I hear people talk about FSG investing in transfers, or lack thereof. If Liverpool spend money on transfers they are not spending FSG’s money, they are spending their own money accrued through sporting turnover. FSG have ‘invested’ a sum total of £109m in Liverpool in the form of a loan to allow them to build the Main Stand. Despite being widely reported as interest free, Liverpool actually paid £5m in interest payments before their kindly overlords stopped charging interest in 2019. Liverpool are paying this loan back at roughly £5-10m per season. All subsequent loans Liverpool have received (for Anfield Road expansion/AXA training ground etc.) have been through their own credit facility directly with banks.

So in terms of actual spending FSG have put in precisely $0. Truly representing the American dream, the owners have spent none of their own money. And whatever happens between now and nuclear Armageddon/them selling the club, I guarantee you that will not change.

Lets compare this with Man City. Their owners have made substantial investments through share capital, which provides funding without indebting the club. As of 2020 they had provided £1.3bln in capital. This has allowed the club to invest in the stadium, training ground and club infrastructure. There has also been an enormous spend on the squad. Whether this is right or wrong is for others to argue about, my point, is that Liverpool financed their stadium and training ground at the clubs expense.

There will be many who argue that this is the best way for a club to be run. Self sustaining and without relying on some sugar daddy/mummy owner. And there is a solid argument to back that up. However, there is a counter argument, and it goes like this:

The owners hold all of the clubs assets in their hands, so any investment in infrastructure, like the stadium, benefits them. For example, if Anfield was worth £250m when FSG bought it, but they then increase the stadium capacity, add in lucrative hospitality and refurbish amenities at a cost of £200m, that stadium might be worth £500m afterward. If they had invested their own money, their return is £50m, if the club spend money it has earnt, FSG’s return is £250m. And this is my point, for all the success Liverpool have achieved in the last 4/5 years, FSG are the ones who are benefitting financially. And they are really, really benefitting.

Lets look at Liverpool’s value. FSG bought the club for £300m in 2010, 12 years later Forbes values the club at £3.83bln. That’s a 1277% return on their investment. So considering they have made £3.5bln already, you could forgive the casual LFC supporter for thinking FSG might be willing to write off the paltry £60m Main Stand debt, allowing the club to free up some extra revenue to be reinvested in the squad. However, FSG have shown zero inclination to prioritise the club in this way, instead reaping the benefit of the value of their asset increasing whilst having the club pay FSG for the privilege of the loan.

It gets worse. I think FSG are now so financially risk averse they are detrimentally impacting Liverpool’s competitiveness. Let’s clear up another misunderstanding, Liverpool are not the poor cousin of Man City and Man Utd. The accounts to be released in early 2023 will likely show their turnover is higher than Utd and very similar to City’s. It will also show that they will have made HUGE pre-tax and operating profits. Liverpool have been run incredibly frugally these last few years, despite their income (Covid period notwithstanding) having steadily increased. There is not a single club in Europe with more wiggle room in terms of FFP than Liverpool. They could invest £300m over the next 2 transfer windows and comfortably stay within the FFP rules. They absolutely won’t though.

We don’t know whether Haaland would have considered Liverpool if they had offered the same financial package as City, what we do know is that they ruled themselves out of the running very early, seemingly stunned at the amount of money Haaland expected. What they don’t mention is that they could have comfortably afforded him. Whether that would be a sensible use of money is up for debate. What is clear though, they could have paid him the same amount.

Liverpool regularly take this approach, when MBappe was linked with Liverpool, Klopp again made clear the figures being discussed made it impossible for LFC to purchase him. Klopp has also made clear that he is not the one making those decisions, instead FSG state the financial restrictions and he works within them. 2 years ago, when Liverpool were top of the league but had lost the entirety of their defence, everyone expected them to buy a CB. Instead, they opted for a couple of cheap loans and subsequently fell of a cliff in terms of results. That they turned it around and achieved top 4 was due as much to the poor form of other top 4 hopefuls than it was their own improved performance. Failure to get top 4 could have cost them £100m, the amount of fee saved by waiting till the summer to buy Konate was how much? Maybe £20-30m max.

The same could be said of this season. Everyone knew Liverpool were light a midfielder. Yes we technically had enough bodies with Fab, Hendo, Thiago, Elliott, Milner, Ox, Keita and Jones, however a closer inspection made clear the problems. Keita and Ox had spent the last few years injured and were likely to continue with that trend. Elliott and Jones were good prospects but too young and inexperienced to fight for a title and Europe, leaving Henderson, Thiago, Milner and Fab who were 32, 31, 37 and 29 (though Fab runs like a 40 year old) Klopp played the good company man and argued he had enough cover but everyone else felt the midfield needed investment. There is no argument now. With Liverpool languishing in 9th its clear as day where the squad is weakest. In fact Liverpool tried to strengthen it, but Tchouameni turned them down.

I can explain very quickly why they didn’t bring in the player that sat second on their famed scouting network list. Because whoever it was, he had 3+ years on his contract. Liverpool almost always refuse to purchase players who have 3+ years as they have to pay a premium. They will refuse even if it means coming into the season light. They did it in the summer/winter before signing Konate, who they had been tracking for at least 18 months, and they have done it this season.

And this is the point. FSG will spend, but only on their terms. Klopp and the scouting network can identify targets but if their is not clear financial benefit, I.e. we are getting an obvious bargain, FSG are reluctant. And the definition of bargain is becoming increasingly difficult to hit. When only the best talents can get into your team, you sometimes need to accept the exorbitant fees that come with it. Even Haaland on £500,000 a week could be considered a bargain if he scores 40+ league goals.

What makes Liverpool’s current predicament different is how dire the situation is and thanks to the World Cup, there is still over half of the season to go when the transfer window reopens on 1st Jan. This makes the possibility good acquisitions can have an even greater impact on the season. However, being January any transfers will come with a huge premium, particularly for big signings. Bellingham and Rice, the types of players Liverpool are crying out for, could both be purchased for something like £220m up front, with another £60m in add-ons. Its exceptionally expensive, but that’s the price you pay for dithering in the summer and waiting until you are in dire need and in a much weaker position to negotiate.

Of course, the argument is moot. FSG will never pay it. They might opt for another loan signing and try and drag performances out of a squad not capable of playing at the level required consistently enough. We will come 5-8th. Bellingham will go to City in the summer. Rice will go to Chelsea. And Liverpool will look for the European equivalent on the cheap.

2 Years ago Liverpool were the dominant team in the world. They could have picked any of the worlds top young talent, but FSG’s penny pinching meant they missed the chance. It may never come again…

Ed Ern

dogbert27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815150#Comment_119815150

I hope that helped to get it off his chest.

A few weeks ago it was reported that Haaland is really taking home up to 800,000 a week with all the ways Man City make their payment structures.

He's right, Liverpool would have never sanctioned that just like nearly every other team besides PSG and probably now Newcastle.

Madrid stayed well clear.

BorneTobyWilde

So many are talking money money money, but will Trent, Fab, Henderson, Thiago, Elliott actually run if John Henry gives Klopp 200m to spend.

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814248#Comment_119814248

Yeah, of course, the refreshing of the squad keeps the players on their toes. I wanted a midfielder in the summer too. I thought one was needed, but now that's closer to 3. It's not that I didn't want anyone signed or wanted Ox to stay etc, it's more that I could see the reasoning why the club chose the option that they went with. In hindsight, it's the wrong one.

I get the feeling that the club saw this season as the 'last dance' whereas it's a really looking more like last season was in fact the 'last dance' with that group of players, even when the majority are still there now. The energy just isn't there. You can see the players out everything into last season and just got burnt out. Fabinho, VVD & Hendo are the 3 biggest cases here I think. Salah Robbo Alisson Thiago (of the older players) still have the look in their eyes to keep going but I really worry about Fabinho VVD & Hendo. They seem to be on proper downward trajectories now. It might be down to a 7/10 from a 9/10 but it's still down. We need some players going from 7/10 towards 9/10 asap. And as you mentioned, new players listening to the team talks etc for the first time. Willing to run through the brick wall for the first time and covering up for others. I think Nunez is doing that. Jota & Diaz are still doing it. Even Salah is still doing it.

I did think that Keita was a serious option to have this season, because of what he done last season but he has broken down and then the whole transfer stuff has basically been a kick in the nuts to the manager and the club. It's changed the dynamic I think. I still think a lot of the seasons problems are stemming from the midfield. It's too late to fix it now for a title change but there should still be 3 trophies on offer on January 1st when the window opens, and top 4 needs to be secured. That's January 1st, not 31st. We got lucky in the covid season with finishing 3rd and left a lot up to chance. Lightning doesn't strike twice so need to act early and don't be scraping around the basement barrell on January 31st again.

One shocking stat I saw today - Liverpool have not used any player in midfield this season between the ages of 22-29. The ages at which players generally are at their physical peak. Every midfielder used is either a kid, or on the downward trajectory past their prime. This needs to change ASAP. Small tweak can help this. I'm sure a Tchouameni Keita Fabinho midfield wins a lot of the games that were not won this season like Fulham Brighton Forest etc. That's just one signing. And that's including Fabinho in his current state as it, I think the energy of the other 2 would help him and cover him. But this imbalance really needs to be fixed soon.

Agent Coulson

Konate and Ramsey fit to start tomorrow.

I'd like to see Ramsey thrown in especially after he is coming off two goals in two games for the under 21's from fullback.

Give him this game and the league cup game next week against Derby.

Fitz*

Yeah I'd start Ramsey too. Nothing to lose. But also give Trent maybe 20 mins to play himself into top form.

I wouldn't be against starting Bajcetic either. Tsimikas & Konate.

The rest, it's hard to know what to do. Bodies are light in midfield & attack.

Summitatem

Presumably we all realise that this is a paper gain "Lets look at Liverpool’s value. FSG bought the club for £300m in 2010, 12 years later Forbes values the club at £3.83bln. That’s a 1277% return on their investment"

To be fair to FSG I don't think they've taken any cash as salaries etc etc.

~Rebel~

I'd be slightly wary of giving Ramsey his first ever minutes starting in a game where he might be getting skinned by some top level players... would rather start Trent, and give Ramsey 30 minutes off the bench to ease him in a bit. Then start him in the cup game.

Would like to see Bajcetic start though, he's been in the squad week in week out, and has looked very tidy in his appearances - and we desperately need to see if any in house midfielders can cut it against a good team in DM. He has enough experience under his belt to get a shot I think.

Agent Coulson

Sense of humour always helps

Klopp:

"I'm 55, so I usually wake up a couple of times in the middle of the night. But this time, it was because of the [Leeds] goal."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816333#Comment_119816333

Unfortunately we would then get to see Trent skinned by some top level players. I’d throw Ramsey in, he must be chomping at the bit to play with the seniors.

Agent Coulson

BVB have now put a €150m price on Bellingham

https://twitter.com/JanAageFjortoft/status/1587122438298533888?s=20&t=mMtzqhwV3h-yCs1KxLLXRQ

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816493#Comment_119816493

That was the price mentioned at the end of summer wasn't it?

Agent Coulson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816515#Comment_119816515

I think it was €120m then.

They want a bidding war and no one can really blame them.

If there were prepard to sell him in January I'd say do it.

If it happens next summer I can't see us out bidding City, Madrid or even Newcastle.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816530#Comment_119816530

Yeah, i've a feeling he'll end up at City. It's the perfect balance of a top club with a space for him to slot in, a return to England, a **** tonne of money, a top manager, and the guarantee of winning things. tbh it's probably the right move for him.

ShamoBuc

I'd prefer to get 2 or 3 quality players than spend 150m on one player. We need quality in numbers at this stage.

TitianGerm

I think he'd pick Madrid over City myself.

They'd also have four unbelievable CMs to pick from with Bellingham, Valverde, Touchmeni and Camavinga.

Then you still have Kroos and Modric as the old guard.

That group could seriously dominate for 8-10 years.

Girly Gal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815743#Comment_119815743

One problem with your Tchouameni (if we had got him) Keita and Fabinho midfield; Keita has been injured all season, that wouldn't have changed even had we signed Tchouameni. Keita has been the most infuriating player as he's never available when needed ie when others are injured he's normally missing too. Fitness apart he could be a very valuable squad member, I think that's why so many single him out.

Your point about no midfielder between the age of 22-29 not playing for us this season is astonishing for a club like Liverpool. That shows how negligent the club have been regarding midfield. I doubt any other senior club in Europe could say no one between 22-29 has played in midfield for them this season!

BorneTobyWilde

______Alisson________

Trent_Konate_VVD_Robertson

_Henderson_Fab_Thiago_

Salah__Nunez__Carvalho

kill em that way

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816820#Comment_119816820

Yeah Keita has been injured for the whole season. I think he played the Charity shield. I dunno was he rushed into playing again it something that caused him to miss out. But Fabinho Thiago Tchouameni would be enough or Hendo Thiago Tchouameni etc. The key to all of these is the new energy brought by Tchouameni. I really think he could have been a Mane type signing that just reignites the position. Mane transformed our attcaked when he signed, adding that new raw pace dynamic and quickness in transitions.

It's annoying as I think he would be playing for Liverpool this season if Mbappe had gone to Madrid. They couldn't afford both deals.

WealthyB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816279#Comment_119816279

But they already sold 10% of their stake in the club for £540m.. Imagine putting even some of that up as a transfer chest, knowing they could still make $4 BILLION profit off the other 90% they hold

Agent Coulson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119817002#Comment_119817002

They didn't sell 10% of there stake in the club they sold 10% of FSG to Redbird as far as I remember.

That money would go to the share holders of FSG not the compaies FSG own.

It's actually 11% of FSG

According to the report 'Fund IV' is likely to seek as much as the last round of funding that the company engaged in that closed in March of 2021, the same month that RedBird wrapped up their investment in FSG, a deal that was worth $750m and gave them indirect investment into Liverpool, the Boston Red Sox, RFK Racing, NESN cable TV and, more recently, the Pittsburgh Penguins NHL ice hockey team

RedBird Capital Partners, the US investment fund that owns 11 per cent of Liverpool owners Fenway Sports Group

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/fsg-liverpool-investor-redbird-gears-23926314

BorneTobyWilde

Clubs are missing a trick social media wise, no club has cracked it, but so much potential, we have living breathing footballers, but also influencers.

BorneTobyWilde

Next summer Jude will have only two years left, he'll also be 16 months away from signing on 31st Dec 2024 for free for a club of his choosing. This gives him some power to go where he wants, Dortmund can't force him out, Jude can say next summer, Liverpool, or I'll stay and wait 16 months for them and walk for zero, so take the 89 m and shut the fck up

WealthyB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119817026#Comment_119817026

Point taken re selling a stake of FSG Group and not just LFC, but that being said, Forbes values the RedSox and the Steelers at 3.9bn each and LFC at 4.6bn, so it's fair to say FSG have realised huge gains from selling a small % of their holdings, which crucially, *includes* ownership of LFC.

To say the increase of the value of the club is merely "paper gains" to FSG isn't any more correct.

Agent Coulson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119817258#Comment_119817258

Who is going to pay $4.6b for Liverpool football club?

It’s only worth that if someone actually pays that price for it.

Paying that money then taking on one of the highest wage bills in world football and the expectations of a fan base that would want huge new signings every season.

That then turns into a lot more than $4.9b.

Do the new owners then dump that debt onto the club.

WealthyB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119817290#Comment_119817290

This has nothing to do with the original point. FSG have already realised real monetary gains from their ownership of LFC, a point you're not willing to accept despite me conceding to your point that they'd sold part of FSG and not just LFC.

Summitatem

LFC have realised monetary gains unders FSGs ownership and they've been left to LFC.

Summitatem

So to quantify the real monetary gains FSG have made, we reckon the purchase price of LFC is less than the % of the $750m received that's attributable to LFC.

Doubt it tbh.

Paper gains it is 😀

BorneTobyWilde

Mane has 11 goals and 3 assists in 20 games for Bayern

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119817833#Comment_119817833

And?

He doesn't play for Liverpool anymore. He wanted to leave the club, and so he did with blessing of Klopp & the club. Move on.

You spent about 5 years constantly giving Barcelona updates in this thread just because Suarez played for them. Please don't do the same with Mane as there is really no need. if I wanted to know how he is getting on, I'll check the Bundesliga or CL threads.

theoneeyedman

Tonight is Jürgens 400th game in charge, only the fourth coach to reach that milestone with us.

The guy is a legend.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814236#Comment_119814236

Go back read the post the majority of poster on here said Klopp & the management team know best And we where delirious for saying we needed another CM & attacker, Its quite funny how now "everyone " was syaing it ,

Also iv never said i "wanted " Klopp gone ,i feared it had gone to far & he wouldn't turn it around but thankfully he did,

This time i fear for him because i don't trust the owners to give us new players that we need ,

Again absolute bullshit i never said once they were condemning Henderson I said it what had gone on was the topic of conversations which to be fair it probably was, I used the word inquest in no way did i ever say Henderson was guilty , I

Honest you just make stuff up in your head ,

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418507#Comment_119418507

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119423389#Comment_119423389

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421060#Comment_119421060

Plenty of comments like the above from back in July that i was talking nonsense & the squad was good enough , but now when it happens everyone pretends like they seen it coming

Potential Underachiever

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818144#Comment_119818144

Somebody is in a bad mood this morning! That response seems a tad harsh.

yourdeadwright

I wonder will we see any change in the style tonight,

Remember United got trashed in there first 2 games & let in a shed load of games then switch it totally up for our visit & have become resolute since (bar City)

Do we have it in us to change & try a new style at all, So far its just been a tweak in shape but play in the same manner,

i' d love us to be brave & go 3 at the back tonight with wings backs, a 3 man midfield, with Salah & Nunez as CF's

citytillidie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818144#Comment_119818144

Mane updates is the new Gini updates from last season

WillmaDickfit

heading to the Southampton match on the 12th, was hoping after the city win that this could be the match we break into top 4 this season, now it feels so underwhelming.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818501#Comment_119818501

All of those posts seem to just be about your own posting style, rather than calling you crazy for suggesting we needed new midfielders.

I honestly can't remember anyone saying we didn't need any new midfielders. I DO remember the argument that even though we obviously needed more in midfield, that it was understandably a difficult enough thing to accomplish with so many on the books already that the club couldn't offload. Like, it is a rational enough point that with 8/9/10 (depending on how you judge positions - Hendo, Fabinho, Milner, Ox, Keita, Jones, Elliott, Thiago, Carvalho, Bajcetic) midfielders already there, that there would be a reluctance by the owners/transfer committee/Klopp to add even more numbers without cutting some first.

So there was a general acceptance from many that even though we were obviously weak there and all wanted new blood, that there would hopefully be enough able bodies to make it through till we could dump a few, or contracts would end freeing up slots and wages. As it turned out, all the injury prone lads decided to get injured together and we didn't even make it 2 weeks without problems (hence the Melo loan which can be added to the list above). It was negligence, but reasoned negligence at least (unlike, for instance, 20/21 where we came into the season with only 3 options at CB).

But I don't recall any "we've a great midfield, we don't need anyone, you're crazy" posts to anyone.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818610#Comment_119818610

Should still be a brilliant one to be at still though - last game before the World Cup, so would hope there'll be one last push to rack up some points before the break. Especially if we manage a win at Spurs next week. The midweek game before it is a cup match too, so would hope most of the lads are rested for Southampton.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818634#Comment_119818634

Even with everyone fit in midfield its still poor & keeping them all fit was never ever going to happen giving there past records ,

Melo the injury prone player brought to fix an injury crisis,

Surely you can recall only a few weeks ago people saying Julian Ward did not have a bad transfer window never heard such boll* in all my days, The lad should have been getting rid of the deadwood & replacing them adequately , The summer was an absolute disaster ,

January will be very interesting

Will the owners give money for transfer;s

Will Ward get the right players in & quickly

Will Klopp change things up or go back to how we where playing with a fit squad ,

rob316

My opinion is the squad needs approx a 200m net investment as there is no one to sell. Forget about bellingham, we need to bring in 2 midfielders, 1 forward and another full back.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818683#Comment_119818683

Literally nobody said anything different about the midfield - the point at the time was that good bad or ugly, there were a fcktonne of players there that couldn't be gotten rid of, so some people could at least understand why the club didn't add the quality we all wanted, without first being able to dump a few. Again, nobody said it was a great midfield or that anyone who thought otherwise was crazy. Everyone agrees - and agreed back then - that we needed better players in midfield.

Even the Ward thing - that feels like semantics. You were posting that it was a total failure. I, and some others, said that the moves he DID make were grand (and I still think this), but we just needed more of them (so partial failure rather than total failure).

It would've been lovely to get rid of the deadwood, but perhaps nobody wanted to pay money for an injured Naby or Ox, when they could get them a year later for free and possibly healthy.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818756#Comment_119818756

By the start of next season we need 3 midfeilders & 2 attackers

Take into account Milner,Ox,Naby, Firmino as it stand will be gone for nothing

I'd also move Gomez on for another CB to ,

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818770#Comment_119818770

Ox and Naby play so little I don't even consider them part of the squad. Rebuild can't be done in 1 window, ideally we need in January 2 midfielders.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818791#Comment_119818791

Ye that why i said by the start of next season,1 CM is needed this January at the very least, ,

I can't see us getting to although that would be ideal

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818762#Comment_119818762

Ward should be held accountable for things he DID NOT do as much as things he did do ,

We are weaker due to the summer transfer activity not stronger ,so iv no idea how that is grand,

Nunez to replace Mane, Taki , Origi has not been a success , although he is showing sings of being decent,

Ramsey & Carvalho are nothing players so far,

Unfortunately that's the reality of the summer