Murder at the Cottage | Sky

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727433#Comment_117727433

There is no fixed period of detention that can be used up.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727152#Comment_117727152

Nevertheless,

Edhoven has a point.

Alfie had a plausible motive, Bailey did not.

Alfie was certainly at the scene of the crime at the time it happened. No evidence that Bailey was.

Alfie had a bandaged hand (reportedly). Bailey had scratches on his wrist.

There is, I would suggest, at least as much, if not more, evidence to regard AL as a suspect as there is to implicate Bailey.

So I agree with Edhoven, reasonable doubt certainly exists.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727322#Comment_117727322

You are the one saying there is a conspiracy. If there was sufficient evidence against Bailey he would have been prosecuted in Ireland. According to you there is overwhelming evidence. So why didn't the DPP prosecute?

If the Garda investigation is not closed at the moment why is Ian Bailey requesting it be opened.

You are just obsessed.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727463#Comment_117727463

but the reported sighting was of a blue fiesta.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727148#Comment_117727148

So in that case , unlikely to have gone down to open the gate for someone.

The French video concurs with Foster

The red line here starts at the rear of the house;

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727332#Comment_117727332

or your detention period has expired, then you normally must be either charged with the offence or released from custody

i never said otherwise. you just moved the goalpost again. you asked about if someone could be held for 24 hours without being charged. They can. The fact you must be charge or released does not mean you cannot be held 24 hours and not charged. I will not be replying to you again. You are either trolling or being deliberately obtuse

jimwallace197

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727540#Comment_117727540

Maybe, but the keys were in the door of the house on the other side indicating that she had opened it. I would like to know what evidence points to the attack originating over that side of the house. I dont believe she went & opened the gate for someone but I believe she left the house voluntarily, keys in the door, boots, jacket on.

Kelvinyook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727463#Comment_117727463

On what basis did detective Dwyer think the attack was before 4am, if I recall correctly from documentary?

Deeec

Moonunits view on Bailey and events is very similar to the scenario put forward in a certain book on the murder. They have a reluctance to look at any other theories or diss the gardai or MF.

It does make me wonder who Moonunit is ....... Perhaps they should write a book

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727972#Comment_117727972

I considered that too. He was very sensitive to criticism of that author earlier. Sounds like an ad for the book most of the time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727972#Comment_117727972

Is it Death in December? That was a stupid book with a stupid chapter a fictionalised account of the murder hinting at Bailey but in fiction for legal reasons i presume. The writer was just a spokesperson for the sophie side. He wrote too about a cheesemaker who knew Sophie and often had a glass of wine with her. heis thesame guy that wrote another book about haunting and hunting the killer like a wannabe cop and also wrote the trash kathy's story

flanna01

A pity we do not have a time of death.. This would be a critical piece of information.

The murder scene is suggestive of an early morning murder (to me anyway..)

• Uncovered loaf of bread on the side / Don't know any woman that would go to bed and leave bread uncovered? Looks like she intended to cut a slice?
• Nuts and berries in her stomach, suggesting her last meal was her 'breakfast'.
• Her bed was unmade - Suggesting she had recently occupied it / Woke up had breakfast?
• As a previous post suggested - Maybe she had woke up (an early riser) and turned off the outside light herself, again indicating a start of the day routine?
• Logically, a good case could be put forward for a morning assault based on the above timeline.
• There is photographic evidence of skid marks either entering or leaving the passageway near to where the body was found. This could be coincidental of course, but it could also add weight to the Ford Fiesta mystery?
• On the topic of the Ford Fiesta - Surely there couldn't have been that man blue Ford Fiesta's running around Cork back then? Couldn't a list of every blue Fiesta owner be generated quite easily? It may have taken some burning of the midnight oil to go through.. But it would be interesting to know why somebody was in the area (the worlds end) at that time of the morning, and why the big hurry...??? Or maybe it could prove Maria Farrell was talking HS?

solasGael

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727945#Comment_117727945

The back door where the attack began is on the far side from the main driveway. The evidence for that being Sophie's path is blood evidence and apparently a bottle.

TheW1zard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728119#Comment_117728119

Or if you were the local guards and knew one of the head honchos had a blue fiesta you might not mention that, especially in small town Ireland.

Who was MF travelling with that night could it have been the cop in question?

Back to Bailey when you look at the drawings of his cuts to his hands, the injuries do look like the actual photos of cuts of Sophie's hands. Just an observation.

solasGael

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728119#Comment_117728119

There are quite a few Ford Fiestas in this investigation. Sophie's rental car was a silver grey Ford Fiesta. Sophie was apparently spotted at a petrol station on December 20th with a tall male passenger in a (green/blue) Ford Fiesta. Jules Thomas had a white Ford Fiesta that Ian Bailey had access to. And a blue Ford Fiesta with red plates was seen speeding from the crime scene at 7:30am on December 23rd.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727599#Comment_117727599

Hold on a second. To recap, I said IB had been held for a total of 24 hours after both arrests are added together so cannot be detained again for this crime unless he is charged. The only attempt to shift goalposts is, ironically enough, your own because you got yourself in a muddle trying to prove my statement was wrong. There is no point in having a 24 hour limit on detention if they can just release you and detain you again for another 24 hours and so on indefinitely. That would be an abuse of power. You won’t reply because you can’t prove otherwise, I’m completely happy to defer to someone with greater knowledge though.

CowgirlBoots

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728553#Comment_117728553

This is correct. I think it's also in the Sheridan doc. 24 hours total with no charge + no further arrests for the same crime unless new evidence is found. Hence, IB was arrested twice for 12 hours each time = 24 hours.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727514#Comment_117727514

There are two conspiracy theories regarding the murder that I have argued against. To put it plainly, I believe they have polluted and derailed the entire discussion on the case.

The first one is the one put most succinctly by Gemma O’Doherty, that a Garda carried out the murder and for some inexplicable reason all the gardai in the local, regional and National units conspired to cover this up and blame an innocent guy. They just got a lottery-like stroke of luck that a man with marks on his hands and arms consistent with carrying out the crime also happened to be saying to lots of people that he did it, in a way that concerned them so much that they testified to it in court and under cross examination.

The second conspiracy theory is simpler, gardai don’t know who did it but went ahead and tried to frame Bailey anyway. This was tested in the high court in front of a jury, was subject to at least two highest level reviews and an in-depth independent investigation by GSOC and found to be baseless.

OwlsZat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727401#Comment_117727401

1. The state pathologist asked that the body be moved to Cork University hospital to speed up the autopsy and better preserve the body. A local guard overruled this. He had zero rhyme or reason to be even attempting to overrule the pathologist. I suspect this guard was from Bantry, and the suspect rogue guard is also from

2. There were two sightings of Fiestas. The first on the 20th few days before the murder, where Mr. Murray filled petrol for Sophie and a man with an anorak pull up around his neck in a Fiesta. The 2nd at 7am the morning of the murder where Martin O' Sullivan was overtaken on a bend by a Fiesta racing away from the direction of the murder with red license plates. i.e., older car. Both cars were also reported to be blue/green in colour. Neither followed up on, or referenced by AGS in the numerous appeals they made for information. Shameful, especially given how close location wise and time wise to the murder the crazy overtaking on the bend was. It's impossible to explain frankly.

3. Martin Graham was told to get the confession. You don't try to bribe people when you actually believe they are guilty. When they are guilty you just use evidence. You bribe people to get / forge evidence when your desperate and don't really have any reason evidence.

4. The missing evidence as you say happens after the failed charging of IB. Witness statements don't go "missing". It's not like they get up and move about from place to place. they have physically been removed. It appears an awful lot like covering of tracks tbh.

jimwallace197

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728654#Comment_117728654

How many times does it have to be said to you? Nobody is thinking the whole force were in on it, was the whole force in on falsely accusing Maurice McCabe for child abuse because he was a whistleblower? A few senior gards or even one could have directed the case where he wanted it to go, Bailey.

Also, nobody is saying that Bailey isnt a bit of an idiot and it wouldnt surprise me one bit in joking that he said he killed her etc, people like him usually have that sarcastic black sense of humour.

Marks on his hands have been pointed out to you already came from cutting down xmas trees which there were a number of witnesses too, also I find it incredible that there wouldn't be even one bit of evidence, even under Sophies fingernails linking him to the crime if he killed her and had marks on his body from doing so. He of course gave over his dna which they have been unable to do anything with (hardly the actions of a guity man)

Gemma O Doherty whilst being far from perfect herself wrote a goodpiece on the murder in which you or the gards have not been able to discredit. Who is to know her sources but I would trust from what she has wrote and what you have wrote on the subject so far, she has a better understanding of what went on. She was an investigative journalist, what are you? Its her job to gain a good understanding of what went on and she is more than entitled to her opinion.

Finally, you keep referring to GSOC's indepth investigation. This wouldnt be the one which relies on the gards giving them all the information on the case & requires/needs their co-operation in order to give a determination??? I wonder what would happen there, turkeys are hardly going to vote for xmas now are they.

Finally, you mention the high court, there was information not available at the time back then which has come to light since (Bandon recordings, further Marie farrell interviews, etc.. Also this high court case would have relied on the honesty of the gards, again given their conduct in the investigation, I wont be too confident of that either. The local senior gard theory has merit whether you think so or not given the outrageous conduct of the investigation & blatant corruption that went on, missing vital pieces of evidence which would have helped catch the killer. Its inconceivable to me & many others that everything that went amongst them was just down to incompetence. That is more unbelievable than the fact Bailey killed her.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727972#Comment_117727972

There's a couple of books I'd generally agree with, Nick Foster's book and the most recent one by Michael Sheridan. I thought Sheridan's first book on the case was quite poor, poorly written and not very much information that wasn't already out there. The newer book is a lot more detailed but very up front about his hatred of Ian Bailey, more so than you would expect in a supposed mainstream publication. He's clearly channelling the pain of the family he seems to have gotten to know well.

Why do I agree with them? Because they are based on the garda investigation files, the outcome of the two court cases, the basis for the French re-investigation and court proceedings etc. I don't find a ridiculous short article by Gemma O'Doherty or some unspecified rumours persuasive in comparison.

FileNotFound

All in all I think everyone can agree that there is neither sufficient evidence to show IB ever committed the crime and more than enough of potential other scenarios to create a very reasonable doubt over any line of enquiry.

I still look back to when Gardai went to France but were blocked from completing even standard interviews with STdP's family. Just so happens she and the hubby were coming to an end and he had a lot of money to lose in any divorce. Being the presidents mate and all may have helped ensure nobody got to ask him any questions. Then again nothing but conjecture there much like all the so called evidence around Bailey.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728553#Comment_117728553

you are wrong. did you not read

Allowable periods of detention https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/detention_after_arrest.html

section 4 allows for

Initial period six hours detention

then six more if authorised by a superintendent

and another 12 hours if authorised by a chief superintendent.

That is 24 hours for one arrest.

You can be arrested three times, you said for the same offence, so he could be held up to 24 hours each time. i do not know how long he was held, was it the full 24?

Also there is other legislation which may be invoked with different hours and a person can be arrested and have the detention split so he could be released and brought back. I think in that case it needs a warrant and the person is given a written date they have to return. I may be wrong on that i have not time to look it up now

i am not in a muddle but you tried to get me in one with your constant change of what you are claiming. So this is really my final response to you. i am dizzy from all the goalposts flying around me and it is a waste of time debating with you because you keep chaning what you are arguing about

also i never said they could hold for 24 hours indefinately.

-------------------

earlier you said

"That depends on how many times they have already been arrested for the same crime too. You only get three goes."

and i said

"who has been arrested more than twice?"

---------------

You do not add both arrests together to determine time in detention. Each time is separate and you can be held the full time each time if they get permission from a super or chief super . see this link https://ibb.co/j4ntLV7

cja.jpg

the upload didn't work and i do not know how to delete it

japester

Been following this thread with great interest, hopefully something can come from the recent account of the elderly local man. Probably something that was done anyway, but I was just wondering whether forensics had checked Sophie's bed for any foreign DNA, just in case she had company in the days leading up to the murder, or on the night itself.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729058#Comment_117729058

That's just hearsay reported 25 years too late

EdHoven

I found this interesting in the GSOC report. One of the pages the garda cut out from the Job Book was a witness who saw a woman "in the jeep with the dark-skinned male", on 22 December.

For any foreigners "jeep" in Ireland is any 4x4 from a farm pick-up to a sports utility vehicle and everything in between.

What I find odd and what GSOC don't elucidate on is why "THE jeep" and " THE dark-skinned man" not "a jeep" and "a dark-skinned man" as if the guards had other reports or evidence of such things.

Why would the gardai go to the trouble of suppressing that particular information?

CowgirlBoots

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729058#Comment_117729058

Yes. Nothing was found.

CowgirlBoots

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728940#Comment_117728940

"came from cutting down xmas trees"

This was not proven. In fact when they tried to replicate the scratches by cutting (topping) the same type of tree (Sitka Spruce) they were unable to do so.

FileNotFound

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729316#Comment_117729316

French hitman covered up by the french and irish authorities.... Sounds like a good conspiarcy theory to me. Better than some degenerate in cork who happened to wear a black coat (in the F'ing 70's to 90's every man in the country prob had a black coat) and have a few scratches on his hands.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728940#Comment_117728940

Marks on his hands have been pointed out to you already came from cutting down xmas trees which there were a number of witnesses too

All of the witnesses to the marks being there before the murder were living in the same house as him, apart from one guy who thinks there might have been a couple of marks on one hand as opposed to the five who saw no marks on either hand or arm hours before the murder.

Gemma O Doherty whilst being far from perfect herself wrote a goodpiece on the murder in which you or the gards have not been able to discredit. Who is to know her sources but I would trust from what she has wrote and what you have wrote on the subject so far, she has a better understanding of what went on. She was an investigative journalist, what are you? Its her job to gain a good understanding of what went on and she is more than entitled to her opinion.

Seriously? She mentions no sources, gives no names. There is nothing to argue against most of her article being made up or a conspiracy rumour that worked its way across the country. Her 'work' since leaving the Irish Independent, including this article, speaks for itself. In truth, what has Gemma O’Doherty exposed? (irishexaminer.com)

Finally, you keep referring to GSOC's indepth investigation. This wouldnt be the one which relies on the gards giving them all the information on the case & requires/needs their co-operation in order to give a determination??? I wonder what would happen there, turkeys are hardly going to vote for xmas now are they.

GSOC re-interviewed most of the witnesses mentioned in the garda file and re-examined evidence with a fine tooth comb. They did not rely on the gardai to give them all the information, they conducted their own investigation.

Finally, you mention the high court, there was information not available at the time back then which has come to light since (Bandon recordings, further Marie farrell interviews, etc.. Also this high court case would have relied on the honesty of the gards, again given their conduct in the investigation, I wont be too confident of that either. 

That's not correct, the Bandon tapes were available during the case in the High Court and Marie Farrell testified herself in glorious, technicolour, bizarre fashion. It just happened that her testimony got better and better and better for IB over the years to where she completely discredited herself. The judge even remarked that he was recommending the DPP investigate her testimony.