Murder at the Cottage | Sky

Kelvinyook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765926#Comment_117765926

Ignoring the known effects of interrogation techniques isn't rational though.

Do you have any other suspects? What about the person who had allegedly committed a crime at the property previously, breaking in using her bath, not sure how long prior that was.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765915#Comment_117765915

"Why would she put herself near the scene of the crime willingly to gardai if there was any possibility of being linked to it?"

Well, now couldn't you say that about Ian Bailey turning up at the crime scene the next day and making himself highly visible to Gardai, scratches and all?

And Marie Farrell didn't put herself willingly at the crime scene to Gardai, she phoned a confidential line making an anonymous tipoff about someone seen in the vicinity and was then tracked down by Gardai to her house as on one of her calls she used a landline. Her original calls were from a phonebox. So if the Gardai believe MF's story, then they must believe there was another man in the vicinity of the crime scene on that night, someone the Gardai haven't been able to track down, or establish who MF was having an affair with and connect the dots. For all we know she might have thought it would distract attention towards her sallow skinned short Frenchman. Or, she was making the whole thing up. Or was genuine.

10 years after the murder, Bolger told Gardai he saw Bailey being introduced to Sophie. So this incident happened maybe a dozen years before. A very brief introduction between two people not exactly close to Bolger, not a memorable moment now is it? Either Bolger has a photographic memory, or he was making it up.

silver2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765926#Comment_117765926

a classic put-down when someone can't reason with the response. I gave you scenarios that virtually every writer will experience on a regular basis and this is your best retort. Laughable

as I said, good luck to you and your wild imagination that bears no resemblance to the facts.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766243#Comment_117766243

You haven't given a reasonable example of someone pulling a drunken all-nighter to finish an article for a national newspaper which they said they had written out by hand and then typed by 10am but still needed a 24 hour extension to the deadline. With them then forgetting about this incident entirely despite having to dictate it over the phone last thing on Christmas Eve, a couple of hours after sorting out the, obviously more urgent, shortage of bleach in the house.

I accept some people may be disorganised and do some panic writing in the middle of the night, but they would remember it and they would definitely remember missing the deadline for a national newspaper, especially when trying to get a career in journalism back on track. You said this all sounds reasonable to you, that's fine, I just don't put any weight behind that opinion.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765993#Comment_117765993

This is a case of being lured so close to the trees that you can no longer see the forest. Whether he faxed or dictated his article , for example, is academic.

Because there is no real evidence against Bailey, advocates of his guilt are forced into attempts at muddying the water by trying to shift the debate into the realms of ever more insignificant detail and hiding there, whilst desperately trying to divert attention from "the elephant in the room" Which is : there is no foundation to the case against him. Nothing to put him at the scene of the crime, nothing to link him to the victim, no motive.

Endless nit picking of insignificant trivia, assertion and counter assertion is a distraction and is just a game of point scoring. The overriding weakness in the case against Bailey is that there is nothing of real evidential value to implicate him.

Having, by now, read up extensively on the subject and taken on board the views, opinions and theories expressed on this and other forums, I would go further. The likelihood of Baily being guilty is very remote.

We are asked to accept that on a cold dark December night, a drunken man got out of his bed, walked three miles to the house of a person that he didn't know, battered her to death for no reason, managing, in the process to ensure that he left no evidence of his presence, and no evidence of the attack about his person, then walked back three miles, taking an inexplicable diversion en route. We are then expected to believe that he calmly brought his wife breakfast and resumed his normal daily activities as if nothing unusual had happened.

Furthermore, we are told, that he subsequently confessed his guilt to some drinking buddies and a fourteen year old boy, yet also managed to hide it, for 25 years, from his common law wife and her daughters, with whom he co-habited.

To compound the absurdity, we the learn that key witnesses against him claim manipulation, coercion and bribery by the Gardai to secure their testimony against him. Then the Gardai themselves lose, mishandle and, most tellingly, deliberately destroy evidence relating to the case.

It stinks.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766333#Comment_117766333

I personally don't accept several of the assumptions you make in this post, nor are they even necessary for IB to remain a compelling suspect.

CowgirlBoots

Mr. Blue Fiesta - Where was he racing to, or more like, racing from..?

No evidence yet provided that this man or his car ever existed, or that a statement making that claim is in the garda file. Happy to discuss it when we know its more than a convenient rumour.

Does anyone know where this story came from? Actual source? The only thing I've seen is IB bringing it up in Episode 4 of the Sky/Sheridan documentary. He says he found the statement in the Garda files during discovery in the French trial. Maybe/maybe not. There's a history there of him pointing out and/or offering up other suspects to divert attention away from himself.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766385#Comment_117766385

Of course you don't.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766400#Comment_117766400

Well you incorrectly claimed that for Bailey to be a suspect we have to believe he walked to Sophie's house, I don't think we need to assume that at all. That he left with no evidence of the attack on his person, no reason to believe this at all, in fact the bonfire and other statements suggest otherwise.

We know he did not resume his normal daily activities since the story he supposedly spent all night writing was supposed to be returned that morning yet he had to get an extension for another 24 hours. Several witnesses say he rang them that morning to cancel prior arrangements, Jules' daughter said they both left the house for an hour and two witnesses said they actually saw Jules in the area during that time. However, both of them say they were at home. Jules' daughter's partner claimed she was put under pressure to withdraw that statement that they had left but has refused.

So, no I don't accept your strawman arguments.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765332#Comment_117765332

Actually he was delivering to Alfie at 6 p.m. Sunday evening in the dark. Claims to have seen lights in upstairs and downstairs in Sophie's house. Which is odd as Yvonne Ungerer stated Sophie left theirs at 5.45 p.m. and then Sophie went to the pub.

There is no way a postman in Ireland would be delivering on a Sunday, even a Sunday before Christmas. He had Monday and Tuesday to deliver. Where would he pick the mail up from? No sorting offices would be open.

So what is the point of this self-evident lie? To place Alfie at home at that time or to place the postman there at that time? Or explain why Alfie had Monday's post delivered on Sunday getting around the problem of why the postie didn't find the body Monday morning?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766620#Comment_117766620

there is no way a postman in Ireland would be delivering on a Sunday

They always deliver on Sunday at that time of year. Check with An Post

Where would he pick the mail up from? No sorting offices would be open

You do not know much about the postal service.

mossie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766733#Comment_117766733

Correct. I was working with An Post at that time and there was always a Sunday delivery leading up to Christmas and all sorting offices would be open.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117767141#Comment_117767141

A sunday delivery at 545pm though, is that not a bit late?

mossie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117767358#Comment_117767358

Not at Christmas time. Postman on overtime and making the most of it. I remember getting post around that time back then in a rural area. Sunday deliveries don't happen anymore as far as I know, stopped in the recent past.

yaboya1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765915#Comment_117765915

Using this logic:

"Why would she put herself near the scene of the crime willingly to gardai if there was any possibility of being linked to it?"

Why would Ian Bailey willingly tell people he did it ,if there was any possibility of being linked to it?

I'm not taking either side, but you can't apply that logic for everyone else and disregard it when it comes to Ian Bailey because it doesn't suit your opinion.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117767667#Comment_117767667

This argument doesn't make much sense? MF was not incriminating herself in the murder case, if we assume for a moment she was telling the truth then she was putting her marriage and reputation at risk by coming forward saying she was with another man in the middle of the night. That's a reasonable enough reason to want to avoid being identified but feeling you have to have a clear conscience regardless. She had clearly thought a lot about it and delayed making the first call for at least a couple of weeks.

IB's alleged admissions, on the other hand, have a clear common theme running through them, he had been drinking or in emotional distress, or both. They were all very much in the heat of the moment. Just a few examples:

Helen Callanan ringing him to confront him about his continuing to report on the case for her paper without disclosing that he was the main suspect and was getting information on the garda operation through their investigation of him. It sounds like the phone call was made to cut off his relationship with the paper.

In the car driving a teenager home, according to the witness statement he was drunk, in a bad mood and was cursing and seemed upset.

The Shelleys, he was drunk and had spent the evening poring over newspaper articles and explaining his theories. When they decided to leave he came out in tears and hugged one of them saying 'I did it, I did it, I went too far'.

Bill Fuller, called to his house and he said IB was drinking and seemed to be celebrating getting paid for his news stories. Bill told IB what the rumours were about his involvement when he said IB then seemed to lose it and recited what seems like a plausible account of how the murder had actually transpired.

These disputed disclosures by MF and IB couldn't be more different.

Massive Berevement

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765332#Comment_117765332

I didn't think I was being unreasonable in asking that. Granted the post in rural Ireland by the replies appears to have been a bit all over the place but surely some people get their post early in the morning? Some area has to be first to be delivered to, why not their area? I'd have thought a Monday at that time of the year would have been busy not quiet. Whatever about Alfie and her having a row over the gate being left open/closed, what about a postman who would be going through/attempting to go through that gate on an almost daily basis. Could that not be cause for a small bit of friction and a row that got out of hand. Not saying it's likely but it's as likely as anything else.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766426#Comment_117766426

Can any of these witnesses you mentioned be relied upon though? Some or most of these witnesses had personal issues or a dislike of Bailey. Some of these witnesses dont have a reliable memory - drug and alcohol users etc. These witnesses would be tore apart in court.

Virtually all the 'witness's' in relation to this case are blow ins to west cork who have their own background problems - I dont think any native of west cork witnessed anything odd at all that week - it was just the wierd attention seeking blow ins that seen/heard all this stuff all of whom it seemed knew IB personally. At times these witness's have even contradicted each other!

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117767965#Comment_117767965

Almost all of them were cross-examined during the libel trial and their evidence was accepted as truthful by Judge Moran. If they were as flaky as people claim, they would indeed have been torn apart, none of them were during the trial that I know of.

Bailey verdict: Judge Moran's remarks (irishtimes.com)

mossie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117767937#Comment_117767937

Someone has to be first, someone last. Mostly the first deliveries would be those closest to the Post Office (Schull?) so a remote rural area like theirs would most likely have the latest delivery times. Monday would probably be quieter as the Sunday delivery was done to reduce the pressure for Monday but at that time of year would still be busier than a normal Monday.

john9876

Sometimes, if I'm peckish, I eat muesli before going to bed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117767937#Comment_117767937

Some area has to be first to be delivered to, why not their area

Common sense. the sorting office are in town and towns get delivered first. then they go outside the town an increasing distance. also towns have businesses so possibly get mail first and maybe a second delivery

flanna01

The Babe Farrell making the anonymous phone call to the Gards:

Maybe she was getting paranoid, wondering did anybody spot her car driving near the vicinity of the murder.. Maybe some curtain twitcher recognised her car, noted she was out riding again..? The call could have been her insurance if the Gards came calling?

The good Alfie growing medical herb for his aches and pains:

Erm... He wasn't. Let's keep this thread somewhat realistic. And, Sophie had made several complaints to the Gards regarding drug use in the area, maybe Alfie thought his herb crop was being threatened by the blow in?

The Blue Fiesta:

This story was born when a local provided a statement to the Gards detailing how a speeding blue Fiesta had dangerously overtaken him on a blind bend at 7.30am on the morning of the murder.

Ian Bailey confessing to the crime:

As stated numerous times throughout this thread, Bailey was probably his own worst enemy. He has an inappropriate way of using sarcasm. If anybody really thinks an inebriated Bailey committed a frenzied murder, without leaving one scrap of forensics at the scene or on his person, is smoking the stuff from Alfie's crop on the hill.

dublin49

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117767965#Comment_117767965

I dont like some people ,I would never consider incriminating these people in a serious crime because they are not to my liking .To suggest this is a motivation for one witness to lie is a stretch,to suggest its the motivation of more than one person is laughable.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117768985#Comment_117768985

Maybe she was getting paranoid, wondering did anybody spot her car driving near the vicinity of the murder.. Maybe some curtain twitcher recognised her car, noted she was out riding again..? The call could have been her insurance if the Gards came calling?

She was paranoid she might have been spotted so drew attention to it directly with the gardai? It's not a crime to be out driving, nor would she be obliged to say she saw anyone. Garda door stops her: MF, why did you not ring us to tell us you were out driving at 3am? MF: As far as I know, there was no national curfew, was there? Garda: Gosh, yes indeed. Sorry to bother you.

The Blue Fiesta:

This story was born when a local provided a statement to the Gards detailing how a speeding blue Fiesta had dangerously overtaken him on a blind bend at 7.30am on the morning of the murder.

There is nothing at all to verify this, one deleted tabloid article and one by GO'D still composting itself somewhere on the internet. No authoritative source has ever referred to this sighting to my knowledge.

Ian Bailey confessing to the crime:

As stated numerous times throughout this thread, Bailey was probably his own worst enemy. He has an inappropriate way of using sarcasm. If anybody really thinks an inebriated Bailey committed a frenzied murder, without leaving one scrap of forensics at the scene or on his person, is smoking the stuff from Alfie's crop on the hill.

Who cries into someone's shoulder sarcastically?

OwlsZat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117769123#Comment_117769123

The blue fiesta is also covered in a times.co.uk article if anyone has a subscription

Kelvinyook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117768985#Comment_117768985

"Sophie had made several complaints to the Gards regarding drug use in the area"

Searched up cocaine stranger murders and the first result was a homeowner stabbed with apparently his own kitchen knife by a farmworker on a binge (scotland), the second a guy who'd gone psychotic on stimulants and bashed a guy's head in with a nearby brick in the London street.

flanna01

• She was paranoid she might have been spotted so drew attention to it directly with the gardai? It's not a crime to be out driving, nor would she be obliged to say she saw anyone. Garda door stops her: MF, why did you not ring us to tell us you were out driving at 3am? MF: As far as I know, there was no national curfew, was there? Garda: Gosh, yes indeed. Sorry to bother you.

Missed the point completely. She made an anonymous call from a public phone box stating she'd seen a bloke by the bridge - Then hung up.

The media frenzy at the time was who was in the area? Surely this would have been playing on the Babe Farrell's mind as the media attention intensified?

What if she had been seen and didn't come forward? How would she save face and explain her reluctance to eliminate herself as a person of interest as the time of the appox murder? No curfew required here to do the right thing.

An horrific murder had been committed, the Babe Farrell was in the area with an unknown male - Do you seriously not think that puts her in the spot light? How do you know she wasn't collecting the murderer from the scene? Because she said she was down walking along the beach in the middle of winter with an unknown male....??

Her ringing the confidential line was possibly an insurance policy for when / if, the Gards came calling. She is every bit as much as a suspect as Bailey, probably even more so as she was in the area, and can't account for who she was with, nor what the were doing.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766733#Comment_117766733

Don't be ridiculous. I live in Ireland. There is no delivery on a Sunday. Saturday before Christmas yes.In the dark. You are a Garda bot.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117768125#Comment_117768125

IB was never on trial for murder. It would be a different situation if these witness's were cross examined during a murder trial - they would be torn apart and personal grievances would be bought to the fore. What judge Moran thought regarding them in the libel trial is completely irrelevent.