Murder at the Cottage | Sky

The post above about a tradesman coming to the house to fix the heating is interesting, she needed to get the work done asap and he would arrive early in the morning. Any other case you would say, 'come on, do you really think this possibility wasn't thoroughly investigated'. Not this case though.
Also, the light is an interesting factor. As someone said it would be dark until about 9am there at that time of year. I know many people from the towns and cities have no idea just how dark a country lane can be at night without a bright moon. Unless there was a good bit of moonlight I can't imagine how the attack was carried out without car headlights, or perhaps it was close to 9am.

monkeybutter

Deleted User wrote: »

The post above about a tradesman coming to the house to fix the heating is interesting, she needed to get the work done asap and he would arrive early in the morning. Any other case you would say, 'come on, do you really think this possibility wasn't thoroughly investigated'. Not this case though.
Also, the light is an interesting factor. As someone said it would be dark until about 9am there at that time of year. I know many people from the towns and cities have no idea just how dark a country lane can be at night without a bright moon. Unless there was a good bit of moonlight I can't imagine how the attack was carried out without car headlights, or perhaps it was close to 9am.

near full moon that night horse

thecretinhop

Deleted User wrote: »

The post above about a tradesman coming to the house to fix the heating is interesting, she needed to get the work done asap and he would arrive early in the morning. Any other case you would say, 'come on, do you really think this possibility wasn't thoroughly investigated'. Not this case though.
Also, the light is an interesting factor. As someone said it would be dark until about 9am there at that time of year. I know many people from the towns and cities have no idea just how dark a country lane can be at night without a bright moon. Unless there was a good bit of moonlight I can't imagine how the attack was carried out without car headlights, or perhaps it was close to 9am.

im sure old met.ie stats would know if there was moon that night weather etc

JKerova1

Deleted User wrote: »

Bashing someone over the head 50 times with a cement block would take serious hate/rage. Not sure heat of the moment or someone just snapping would have gone that far.

Could have been someone with psychosis, which is a common enough condition.

I think she had 50 different injuries to her body in total, including deep scratches from briars etc. Not sure how many times she was hit with the block.

Fr Tod Umptious

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Well a murder like this is a highly unlikely situation & stranger things have happened haven't they.

I don't believe the foreign hitman with a beret and long black jacket story for a minute who was able to find his away to that extremely remote location back and forth without a hitch. All the while leaving behind an extremely messy bloody scene close to a neighbours house where the body would be found shortly. All because he wanted to stage it as a crime of passion:D

I dont buy the Ian Bailey story. As stupid & attention seeking as he is, I dont believe he would be still claiming his innocence to this day, asking drew harris to re open the investigation & still hanging around west cork if he did this. Dont think he would have started writing extensively about the case in the papers shortly afterwards if he was involved either. And there wasnt one bit of hard evidence linking him to the crime either.

So it doesnt leave many other options does it. What we do know is that there was gross incompetence and a cover up by the gardai, we know that so called witnesses were bribed, threatened, co-oerced to implicate Bailey. We know there was little to no evidence retained despite there being plenty of it especially on the gate that went missing.We know that several vital leads such as a blue fiesta were not followed up on.

Sounds like the most likely scenario to me

I'm late to this and I'm not reading the whole thread, but how do we know the blue fiesta was never followed up on ?

I just finished the West Cork podcast and as far as I recall there was no mention of the blue fiesta in it.

So I googled it and from a 2013 article in the Daily Star it seems that a petrol station worker in Skibbereen swears 110% that Sophie got petrol on the 20th and there was a tall man in the car, a blue\green Fiesta rental car.

How do we know that AGS did not just contact the car rental companies from Cork airport and identify the people who rented a blue or green Fiestas and find out that it was not in fact a lead at all?

Just because someone reports something to the Gardaí and nothing more comes of it does not mean that the Gardaí did not follow it up.

monkeybutter

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'm late to this and I'm not reading the whole thread, but how do we know the blue fiesta was never followed up on ?

I just finished the West Cork podcast and as far as I recall there was no mention of the blue fiesta in it.

So I googled it and from a 2013 article in the Daily Star it seems that a petrol station worker in Skibbereen swears 110% that Sophie got petrol on the 20th and there was a tall man in the car, a blue\green Fiesta rental car.

How do we know that AGS did not just contact the car rental companies from Cork airport and identify the people who rented a blue or green Fiestas and find out that it was not in fact a lead at all?

Just because someone reports something to the Gardaí and nothing more comes of it does not mean that the Gardaí did not follow it up.

you need to read the full thread, she had a rental fiesta also


there is a long and particularly boring bit of the thread discussing seat positions in rental cars, its great reading

Bannasidhe

fryup wrote: »

nice house not a bad price either, but don't think i'd fancy living so close to a murder scene..might attract too much macabre interest from wannabe columbo's

* just did a google streetview meander down the local boreen, and there's no way on this earth you'd find that house without having local knowledge...and back in 96 before satnav not a chance...it had to be local who did it or someone who was there on a previous occasion

In '96 Alfie had painted his house sky blue with clouds. It was impossible to find even when you knew where it was as from the road it was against the skyline. Sophie's house could be seen from the road.

jimwallace197

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'm late to this and I'm not reading the whole thread, but how do we know the blue fiesta was never followed up on ?

I just finished the West Cork podcast and as far as I recall there was no mention of the blue fiesta in it.

So I googled it and from a 2013 article in the Daily Star it seems that a petrol station worker in Skibbereen swears 110% that Sophie got petrol on the 20th and there was a tall man in the car, a blue\green Fiesta rental car.

How do we know that AGS did not just contact the car rental companies from Cork airport and identify the people who rented a blue or green Fiestas and find out that it was not in fact a lead at all?

Just because someone reports something to the Gardaí and nothing more comes of it does not mean that the Gardaí did not follow it up.

If they did, come out & say it so the search can be narrowed down. Also, just because they called car rental companies in Cork, doesnt mean they followed up all the blue fiesta leads in Cork.

Their conduct in the investigation would give the strong impression that they didnt because they honed in on bailey so quickly and refused to budge from that standpoint. They tried to paint a picture that fitted their narrative early on which is what poor investigators/detectives too. Their motivations for doing could be for many reasons.

Bannasidhe

monkeybutter wrote: »

Don't even need a map, but there were maps back then I believe



Just simple directions will get you there



1. Take the road west out of schull

2. turn right at Kealfadda bridge, before the OSKA store

3. second left road



easy peasy


it was harder to find stuff in a city than out in the country

It was in it's hole easy peasy and I say that as someone who was following the driver of a jeep, who had been at Alfie's house many many times yet couldn't find it, for hours up and down that blasted road.

Hard to find a camouflaged against the sky house which Alfie's was - and the confusion caused by looking for two houses in a particular relation to each other but seeing only one made it very un easy peasy. The landmarks used for navigation couldn't be seen.
As for a map - you'd need a hell of a detailed OS map.

Fr Tod Umptious

monkeybutter wrote: »

you need to read the full thread, she had a rental fiesta also


there is a long and particularly boring bit of the thread discussing seat positions in rental cars, its great reading

Yea, I'll see when I get the time for 48 pages,

But back to the car, maybe the Gardaí did chase up with the rental companies and found a couple, a petit woman that was not Sophie and a tall man (as described by the petrol station worker) that did rent a car and did get petrol at that station, thus it's not a lead.

chooseusername

I told ya wrote: »

I know I've posted this before and a reply was posted quoting State Pathologist's website, statinh he was appointed in 1974.

I clearly remember reading at the time, and before it, that back then there was no official SP.

John Harbison was a Prof of Pathology in TCD. He was retained by the state to carry out post mortems, as and when requested by the Gardai. He carried out the PM, prepared his report, gave evidence, was cross examined, etc. and, I'm sure there was a fee scale and expenses.

A cynic would say, typical state penny pinching. Maybe the murder rate didn't justify it.

A wag would say, whoever said you can't put a price on a human life never considered the deceased.

IIRC it was after this case that an official position of SP was created, with staff, laboratory, etc.

Prof Harbison was retained back in 1974, per the website. Could well have been in the aftermath of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. The hospitals would have been overwhelmed and sufficient medical expertise might not have been available.

Prior to that I don't know. It was probably a very loose arrangement. Who's the local doctor, that we can rely on.

His non attendance on the day should be looked at in the first instance, what was the terms of the engagement? Notification? Response times? He can't be expected to be sitting by the phone 24/7. It has been reported that he was having a birthday lunch, or after it when notified. Chances are he had a couple of glasses, given the day and time of year. Would he be in a position to drive and/or be perform his duties? He probably make the assumption that the Gardai could be trusted to do their job.

FWIW, my view is if the scene was properly preserved things may have worked out better.

I have no connection to the man or his family.

The state pathologist had been looking for a deputy who was eventually appointed on a temporary basis in 1995 who concentrated on Munster.
To make the position permanent the deputy was required to be based in Dublin
and commute to Munster, which did not suit ,so resigned in 1996 before
Sophie's murder. He eventually got his deputy in 1998.
Quote:
"By then, he had gone public on the neglect of the office and the failure of any government department to take responsibility for its planning and resources, saying:
“It appears at the moment to be just an awkward file.”"
So it took the murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier and the subsequent
fiasco of an investigation for the Government to do something.

jimwallace197

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It was in it's hole easy peasy and I say that as someone who was following the driver of a jeep, who had been at Alfie's house many many times yet couldn't find it, for hours up and down that blasted road.

Hard to find a camouflaged against the sky house which Alfie's was - and the confusion caused by looking for two houses in a particular relation to each other but seeing only one made it very un easy peasy. The landmarks used for navigation couldn't be seen.
As for a map - you'd need a hell of a detailed OS map.

Just as a matter of interest, who do you think did it? You seem to have a more detailed/intimate knowledge of this case than many other posters on here.

Did you hear any rumors in the locality etc?

Fr Tod Umptious

jimwallace197 wrote: »

If they did, come out & say it so the search can be narrowed down. Also, just because they called car rental companies in Cork, doesnt mean they followed up all the blue fiesta leads in Cork.

Their conduct in the investigation would give the strong impression that they didnt because they honed in on bailey so quickly and refused to budge from that standpoint. They tried to paint a picture that fitted their narrative early on which is what poor investigators/detectives too. Their motivations for doing could be for many reasons.

You serious.

How many blue Fiestas do you think there were in Cork in 1996 ?

Did every one of them warrant an investigation ?

This is not CSI or FBI or some other TV show, this is reality.

Mackinac

Deeec wrote: »

There has never been much said about Alfie Lyons. I would assume he was a suspect at the start ( but then again the gardai investigation into the murder was pathetic ). Why did Alfie and Sophie not get on - I havent seen any reference to this in what I have read and listened to.

There was quite a lengthy article in The Observer magazine in 2000 which refers to Sophie having feuded with her neighbours over a shared gate being left open which Sophie felt should have been shut. It did not mention the names of the neighbours. Would this have been this same gate close to where Sophie was found?

listermint

JKerova1 wrote: »

Could have been someone with psychosis, which is a common enough condition.

I think she had 50 different injuries to her body in total, including deep scratches from briars etc. Not sure how many times she was hit with the block.

Ya i think that's where people are getting the injury count from. Hair pulling etc will count in that total. Pulled hair major struggle into briars and out , lots of injuries to be be had. And the weapons used to finalise the murder they may have just been a few blows .

monkeybutter

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It was in it's hole easy peasy and I say that as someone who was following the driver of a jeep, who had been at Alfie's house many many times yet couldn't find it, for hours up and down that blasted road.

Hard to find a camouflaged against the sky house which Alfie's was - and the confusion caused by looking for two houses in a particular relation to each other but seeing only one made it very un easy peasy. The landmarks used for navigation couldn't be seen.
As for a map - you'd need a hell of a detailed OS map.

i would have to question your ability to follow a map or directions


i mean you would find it on any road atlas of of ireland from the time


I gave concise directions there


would you have gotten lost going to barleycove also?

retro:electro

It just goes to show the power of how information is presented. When I listened to West Cork I was leaning on the side of him having done it, and now I feel the complete opposite. I think he is a very strange man, very dark, very flawed and almost relishes in the attention the case has brought him and has the potential to be very dangerous but I don’t think he did this. But at the same time if it was ever (sincerely) revealed by him that he did do it then I wouldn’t be that surprised, you know?

I also feel deep pity for him. Like how could you not? Seeing him sitting there in the chicken coop drunk as shlt relentlessly recanting and being tortured by the last 25 years is a sorry sight. It’s ironic that the state who brought all of this shlt to his doorstep is now the same state that is protecting him from being imprisoned in France. I feel for Jules too, she deserved a better life and in the end just seemed to have relented and given up on anything ever changing. I hope she can find some peace now she is somewhat away from it all. A very strange case, and it’s just unbelievable that no other lines were ever considered. As Jim Sheridan said at the end, whatever way you look at it, the killer is walking free.

chooseusername

Mackinac wrote: »

There was quite a lengthy article in The Observer magazine in 2000 which refers to Sophie having feuded with her neighbours over a shared gate being left open which Sophie felt should have been shut. It did not mention the names of the neighbours. Would this have been this same gate close to where Sophie was found?

It would be ironic then if it was the closed gate was her undoing and prevented
her from fleeing her attacker.

I told ya

chooseusername wrote: »

The state pathologist had been looking for a deputy who was eventually appointed on a temporary basis in 1995 who concentrated on Munster.
To make the position permanent the deputy was required to be based in Dublin
and commute to Munster, which did not suit ,so resigned in 1996 before
Sophie's murder. He eventually got his deputy in 1998.
Quote:
"By then, he had gone public on the neglect of the office and the failure of any government department to take responsibility for its planning and resources, saying:
“It appears at the moment to be just an awkward file.”"
So it took the murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier and the subsequent
fiasco of an investigation for the Government to do something.

Interesting. Thanks.

IIRC the Gaurd from the Technical Bureau said on the Sky programme that Harbison wanted the body moved that day to Cork. The Super said no, he wanted Harbison to go to the site. The Guard said, it's a 'regulated force' so the body was left there.

Maybe if the body was moved on the day..... Who knows.

Maybe some evidence may have been recovered. The hospital may have been able to store the body at a certain temperature and in certain conditions. Maybe Harbison could have given instructions for the prelims to be carried out. Who knows....

monkeybutter

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You serious.

How many blue Fiestas do you think there were in Cork in 1996 ?

Did every one of them warrant an investigation ?

This is not CSI or FBI or some other TV show, this is reality.

you see there is another blue fiesta in the picture, I think this is causing confusion



it was surely her at the petrol station

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

In '96 Alfie had painted his house sky blue with clouds. It was impossible to find even when you knew where it was as from the road it was against the skyline. Sophie's house could be seen from the road.

Why did he go to such lengths to camouflage it? Anything to do with his drug habits?

Bannasidhe

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, who do you think did it? You seem to have a more detailed/intimate knowledge of this case than many other posters on here.

Did you hear any rumors in the locality etc?

My only knowledge is that I was at Shirley's retirement party in the Summer of 1996 at their house.

While there I got landed with talking to.. or rather listening to...Ian Bailey stoned blow holing for bloody hours. Alfie was a great but very slow cook.

I didn't actually know he was Ian Bailey until after Sophie's death when someone told me I had been talking to him. As far as I was concerned I had been amusing myself winding up a pompous tall English bloke with a beard who was full of his own self importance. And to be fair to him, he took it with good humour.

I was involved in the conversation where there was a reference made to who lived at the neighbour's house. As part of that conversation my impression from what was said was Bailey knew Sophie to see but not that she lived there.

So in short, I knew and worked with Alfie for many years. My then in-laws were very close friends of both Alfie and Shirley. I was at the location in late August 1996. I met Ian Bailey there.

Sophie was not in residence. Her house was unoccupied.

I did later meet him on campus at UCC about 2001 and we had coffee. He was not the same man. By then all that was keeping him going was anger and frustration. The arrogance was gone.

And no. I don't think he did it.

I do think he was planning on spinning being the accused into an eventual book once he was cleared. A tell all 'I fought the Law and I won' exposé.
He was a bit of a grifter, living casual job to casual job. This probably looked like his big break. Chat shows, interviews, book sales beckoned.

Fr Tod Umptious

monkeybutter wrote: »

you see there is another blue fiesta in the picture, I think this is causing confusion



it was surely her at the petrol station

Based on what ?

An eye witness ?

You see my thing is this assumption that the Gardaí did not follow up on certain things.

In the West Cork podcast there is the assertion by her son that the Gardaí never contacted him and how bad can the Gardaí be if they never even contacted her son the person who had spent the most time in the holiday home with her over the years

However it transpires in the podcast that the Gardaí did actually try and contact the son very early on, but bureaucracy and rules meant that they had to do it via the French police and in reality the French police failed to do their duty and did not contact the son.

jimwallace197

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My only knowledge is that I was at Shirley's retirement party in the Summer of 1996 at their house.

While there I got landed with talking to.. or rather listening to...Ian Bailey stoned blow holing for bloody hours. Alfie was a great but very slow cook.

I didn't actually know he was Ian Bailey until after Sophie's death when someone told me I had been talking to him. As far as I was concerned I had been amusing myself winding up a pompous tall English bloke with a beard who was full of his own self importance. And to be fair to him, he took it with good humour.

I was involved in the conversation where there was a reference made to who lived at the neighbour's house. As part of that conversation my impression from what was said was Bailey knew Sophie to see but not that she lived there.

So in short, I knew and worked with Alfie for many years. My then in-laws were very close friends of both Alfie and Shirley. I was at the location in late August 1996. I met Ian Bailey there.

Sophie was not in residence. Her house was unoccupied.

I did later meet him on campus at UCC about 2001 and we had coffee. He was not the same man. By then all that was keeping him going was anger and frustration. The arrogance was gone.

And no. I don't think he did it.

I do think he was planning on spinning being the accused into an eventual book once he was cleared. A tell all 'I fought the Law and I won' exposé.
He was a bit of a grifter, living casual job to casual job. This probably looked like his big break. Chat shows, interviews, book sales beckoned.

Thanks, I agree, I dont think he did it either. He has been entirely consistent in everything that he is said about knowing her/the case/issues surrounding the case from an early stage. Also, Jules who seems like a genuine person completely believes he wasnt involved either. Would be pretty hard to hide something like that from your partner for that many years without giving something away.

monkeybutter

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Based on what ?

An eye witness ?

You see my thing is this assumption that the Gardaí did not follow up on certain things.

In the West Cork podcast there is the assertion by her son that the Gardaí never contacted him and how bad can the Gardaí be if they never even contacted her son the person who had spent the most time in the holiday home with her over the years

However it transpires in the podcast that the Gardaí did actually try and contact the son very early on, but bureaucracy and rules meant that they had to do it via the French police and in reality the French police failed to do their duty and did not contact the son.

yes a witness

JimmyVik

monkeybutter wrote: »

i would have to question your ability to follow a map or directions


i mean you would find it on any road atlas of of ireland from the time


I gave concise directions there


would you have gotten lost going to barleycove also?

There is the proof that it was a man who done it then.
Obviously it was someone who could read a map.


I'll get my coat

Bannasidhe

monkeybutter wrote: »

i would have to question your ability to follow a map or directions


i mean you would find it on any road atlas of of ireland from the time


I gave concise directions there


would you have gotten lost going to barleycove also?

Did I say I got lost?
No.

I said a close friend of Alfie and Shirley's - who I was driving behind - got lost as Alfie had managed to camouflage his house by painting it sky blue.

But sure Mr Snarky Pants - you know best because you can read a map. I'm sure in pre- sat nav days whenever you were going to a house you had been at many times before you brought a map and never ever relied on being able to see the house where you expected to see the house. And when you couldn't see the house you certainly wouldn't have gotten confused. Because you can 'read a map'.

I am saying If you were looking for a specific number of houses in a particular arrangement - as people in rural area frequently do - in 1996 Alfie Lyon's house was not easy peasy to see/find which threw people out. I am saying that from personal experience. And you can mark that on any map in biro.

JimmyVik

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Did I say I got lost?
No.

I said a close friend of Alfie and Shirley's - who I was driving behind - got lost as Alfie had managed to camouflage his house by painting it sky blue.

But sure Mr Snarky Pants - you know best because you can read a map. I'm sure in pre- sat nav days whenever you were going to a house you had been at many times before you brought a map and never ever relied on being able to see the house where you expected to see the house. And when you couldn't see the house you certainly wouldn't have gotten confused. Because you can 'read a map'.

I am saying If you were looking for a specific number of houses in a particular arrangement - as people in rural area frequently do - in 1996 Alfie Lyon's house was not easy peasy to see/find which threw people out. I am saying that from personal experience. And you can mark that on any map in biro.

The house wasnt on the map though. The road would have been.
You have to trust the map Unless you ask someone directions and you decide to do it without a map. But a killer is probably not going to ask for directions to the house of his victim tbf.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Why did he go to such lengths to camouflage it? Anything to do with his drug habits?

No.
And by 'drug habits' you mean he was a long time stoner?
He had quit smoking the grass he used to grow himself for himself for health reasons.

He painted it to look like the sky as a gift to Shirley who was an art teacher in a tough area of Hackney and loved the 'big sky' in West Cork.

Everyone's reaction was "FFS Alfie.. how are we supposed to find you?"
He admitted he hadn't thought of that. It was a spur of the moment thing.

SAMTALK

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My only knowledge is that I was at Shirley's retirement party in the Summer of 1996 at their house.

While there I got landed with talking to.. or rather listening to...Ian Bailey stoned blow holing for bloody hours. Alfie was a great but very slow cook.

I didn't actually know he was Ian Bailey until after Sophie's death when someone told me I had been talking to him. As far as I was concerned I had been amusing myself winding up a pompous tall English bloke with a beard who was full of his own self importance. And to be fair to him, he took it with good humour.

I was involved in the conversation where there was a reference made to who lived at the neighbour's house. As part of that conversation my impression from what was said was Bailey knew Sophie to see but not that she lived there.

So in short, I knew and worked with Alfie for many years. My then in-laws were very close friends of both Alfie and Shirley. I was at the location in late August 1996. I met Ian Bailey there.

Sophie was not in residence. Her house was unoccupied.

I did later meet him on campus at UCC about 2001 and we had coffee. He was not the same man. By then all that was keeping him going was anger and frustration. The arrogance was gone.

And no. I don't think he did it.

I do think he was planning on spinning being the accused into an eventual book once he was cleared. A tell all 'I fought the Law and I won' exposé.
He was a bit of a grifter, living casual job to casual job. This probably looked like his big break. Chat shows, interviews, book sales beckoned.

From listening to the podcasts I have to agree with this

He comes across are arrogant, dark, dangerous , unlikeable etc but I actually think he got a kick out of being in the limelight safe in the knowledge that he was innocent.

This backfired when they didnt discover the real killer and has ruined a big chunk of his life.

I also think he enjoys the light being shone on him once again, and still expects to have his day in the sun.