Murder at the Cottage | Sky

MrMischief

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952955#Comment_117952955

Yes I find that also quite strange but maybe they were quizzed/investigated further but who is to know. The Lyons had a birdseye view looking down on Sophie's house and even with the windows closed and going to bed early I find it hard to believe they didn't hear anything at all. It's so quiet around there and it's not as if their house was soundproofed. Lastly, if that's the rental car in her 'driveaway' does it not look like a hubcap on the backwheel at least (too hard to determine though).

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953040#Comment_117953040

Whoever confronted her would most likely have come from in from the Eastern side of her house whether it was the front or back.

If indeed she was confronted at the house .

This caused her to flee towards the western side, towards Alfie's house .

The lane up to Alfie's rises sharply and there is a 5 or 6 ft bank up to the lane at her back door.

There was no way she could get up to Alfie's house from her back door without having to go along the back of her house to where her car was parked.

So the only place for her to go was down across the lawn,

or around the house, which she chose not to do.

It's odd all right nothing was heard, especially if it was a after dawn attack, when people would be in that half awake state, if not fully awake.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950019#Comment_117950019

A PI sent from France (or indeed hired locally by the husband) gone awry had occurred to me as a possibility before actually. Entirely conspiratorial, but one should note a solid majority of PIs in Ireland would be former / retired Gardai. Such a scenario could go a long way to explaining the Guards behaviour around this case, perhaps covering tracks of a former colleague. Again, entirely conspiratorial.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953281#Comment_117953281

Can divorces get messy in France... would who was 'at fault' affect the settlement? Or would it just be no fault go separate ways financially?

mamboozle

Alfie Lyons passed away earlier this year and Shirley has sold the house where they lived. I can understand that as she must have been living in fear of the killer returning for the last 25 years. Just imagine how terrifying it must have been had she ever been left alone in the house or if she had to drive that lonely boreen in the dark on her own. Possibly her recollections of meeting Ian Bailey that day were so clear due to adrenaline with trauma not having yet set in. One can only surmise.

facebeard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953214#Comment_117953214

The back door had no damage to it, You would think if someone was trying to break in, the door would have damage to it. Whoever was out there gave Sophie enough fear to think it was best to try and flee the house rather than ring the guards or try to make it to her car or stand your ground. Make you wonder who was out there ?.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953340#Comment_117953340

A quick google would suggest it's a hybrid system. There are 'no-fault' divorces but also contested divorces where the use of a PI to reveal infidelity would likely serve as an advantage in the division of assets. Not even going to pretend to be an amateur expert in divorce law in France, but that's my initial reading.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953040#Comment_117953040

That's a very good point. I always thought that there was something wrong with Alfie and Shirley, especially as they stated that they didn't hear anything during the night of the murder. It's beyond imagination that this murder would have been totally silent, if Sophie was really running for her life. That is, if the murder site is really also the murder site, as we have gotten to know it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953281#Comment_117953281

thats interesting, I didn’t know about the overlap between PIs and the guards in this country.

the details emerging about Sarah Everard today having being ‘arrested’ prior to her murder are further proof about characteristics of many members of law enforcement across the world.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951081#Comment_117951081

...to confront, on her own, some (likely) male stranger? She would have been incredibly brave or foolhardy in that case. Anyway, had the intrusions not ceased long before after the locks were changed? She was just in the habit of spending periods alone in the house.The fact that this was Christmastime might seem odd to some but to me it is insignificant, especially when she was experiencing domestic difficulties. Maybe she just wanted to clear her head. It seems unlikely, also, that she was expecting somebody to call or had a meeting pre-arranged. She was dressed in night attire so was probably preparing to go to bed unless waiting for a lover but that seems implausible. So the killer arrived out of the blue, uninvited, I think it's fair to assume. The question is, was it somebody she already knew?

saabsaab

The concrete block used seems to be strangely excessive. Unless it was to hide something perhaps? Sophie could have bitten the person (an arm?) who had held her (by the hair? ) and their DNA could have been in her mouth throat and by obliterating the skull it would be very hard to find unmixed DNA present especially if it wasn't being looked for.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953871#Comment_117953871

If the door was on the latch or not the evidence really points to her making her way down to the gate for whatever reason. The scenario you consider was planted in our imagination by the investigation along with a supposed sighting at Kealfadda bridge. The little blood around the back door, near the handle and in the paddock can be accounted for by the movement of Alfie and Shirley and doesn't imply guilt.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953923#Comment_117953923

Neither Alfie nor Shirley went close to the body. Alfie saw the blood on the door. He didn`t put it there.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953995#Comment_117953995

You know that how?

I just wonder about Shirley's reaction. Maybe you don't go near the body to see if you can do anything, after all there could be a killer still around. Running up a field, and then a steep enough lane, screaming is hard to understand when you could jump in your car, lock the doors, start blaring the horn and turn around. You could run into the killer

facebeard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953923#Comment_117953923

I think she ran down towards the gate to get away from her attacker and this is where he caught up with her and the small rock done the damage but that person finished the job with the block. It seems very excessive force.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952816#Comment_117952816

I think in the sky documentary a visitor that was staying at cottage around the date of murder mentioned a coat steeped in water in a bucket in the bathroom. She now lives in Canada or USA and thought at the time it's unusual to wash such a heavy coat in winter steeped in a bucket. He may have had multiple coats, but shortly after the murder a coat was washed in a bucket, which may have removed possible evidence.

I suggest the evidence is so vague for all theories a procecution is impossible and there is really nothing linking anyone to the scene. That said I think it was ...

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117947469#Comment_117947469

He mentioned in the very recent TV3 big interview he was trying to source a cottage to rent for the winter months. He said tourism in the summer of 2021 meant little availability. I assume his income is the dole, rent allowance , and selling chickens and other stuff at the market. He has had no real income for 20 years. He is also publishing books of poetry etc.

Polly701

That visitor to the Thomas household saw some sort of clothing being soaked in a bucket.. She couldn't have known it was a coat as such - she didn't look too closely at it. Even if it was a blood soaked coat the blood dna would still be found if it was examined.

I do not believe that Jules or her daughters would have covered for Ian if he was trying to dispose of blood soaked clothing.

It is surprising that Shirley has hardly ever received any attention at all really as a witness.. I assume the Guards interviewed her at length about Sophie and yet I don't know of any quotes or information that has come from Shirley. I am amazed that they would continue living in that house.. Surely they would be terrified knowing how vulnerable their neighbour had been?

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954064#Comment_117954064

Shirley blew the horn repeatedly, but it went un-noticed so she had to run back to the house to alert Alfie.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954064#Comment_117954064

Shirley saw the body from her car and beeped her horn and screamed and ran back up to her house. Alfie rang the guards. They told him not to touch the body. He then went down but only saw the body from a distance of 20 meters. He says he then went back up and knocked on Sophie`s kitchen window to warn her. Then he went to her back door to knock and saw the blood. At first they weren`t sure it was Sophie.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953518#Comment_117953518

There was no evidence of any attempted break in as far as I reacall

Coopcrow

There is nothing to suspect Alfie and Shirley, other than they lived next door. The Gardai investigated over 50 suspects, Alfie & Shirley would have been looked at also. Living next door to someone does not make you a murder. The member who mentioned showing up to Alfie's with a search warrant... you need evidence to search someone's home. There was none.

As for the noise, they said they had gone to bed around 9:30pm. Sophie spoke to her husband until midnight approximately. Her bed was rumpled so someone disturbed her. If you are asleep for two to three hours it's probably a fairly deep sleep at that moment. In addition, they live in a remote area, up high, and are not far from the sea. Any wind whatsoever would carry through the air.

One question that was worth asking was why didn't she run to Alfie's and raise the alarm? When you look at the house, it seems that she'd have to run back towards the car to get to Alfie's house. The killer was likely blocking that path as she ran through the field. Alfie's house was not an option.

Sophie was disturbed, that is clear. She was alone and someone called to her home. When thinking of this case we get caught up on whether she knew the person personally or not. I think that is a mistake, she didn't know loads of people in West Cork. It may have been someone she knew however, if someone came to her back door, knocked, and when she came down and asked who is it mentioned they knew Alfie or Shirley, why would she not open the door? It was 1996 and murders were incredibly rare in that part of Ireland or any part of Ireland really. There was no reason to be so alarmed. She came to Ireland alone and her home was often unlocked. Sophie seemed to feel safe there.

The location of the house is very remote. Whoever killed Sophie and called to her would have known of Alfie and Shirley. They knew this area and had local knowledge.

On the PI: I can't believe people still suspect that. The crime was full of explosive rage, the man who did this exploded in anger. He didn't take rejection or confrontation well. We know that from her injuries. It wasn't a PI. The person who killed Sophie showed up and killed her with the weapons at the scene. Which PI would do that?

odyssey06

Attaching a PDF of the original DPP report to the thread in case it disappears from online sources...

DPP report.pdf

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954500#Comment_117954500

A PI who doesn't take confrontation well? If Sophie spotted someone lurking outside by moonlight, may have thought it was a peeping tom who would flee in shame, went out to challenge... and the guy lost it. Sophie's ex-husband mentioned she was the sort to jump in first and think later, although that doesn't tally with fears of her being a bit 'spooked' on this particular visit.

Just because Person X is a PI / Guard / whetever ... doesn't mean they can't lose the head in an incident if they 'feel' they have been provoked, and aren't used to being challenged... thinking 'who does this person think they are challenging me, showing no respect'.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954410#Comment_117954410

It was mentioned the clothes Ian was wearing when killing the turkeys for christmas were stained in blood and could have been in a bucket being soaked.

Coopcrow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954603#Comment_117954603

Why would a PI decide to race across a field after her and beat her to death with rocks and a cement block? Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

This was a crime of rage and passion. Her face was unrecognisable, which could be a clue that it was a crime of passion. No one loses their head and beats someone to death in this way, the violence was astonishing. The killer had a personal interest in her. It definitely wasn't a PI.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954438#Comment_117954438

If we are allowed to speculate about Ian and Jules, the same goes for others.

If Alfie and Shirley had murdered Sophie down by the gate they'd have had to concoct a story. What would that story have been like?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954662#Comment_117954662

Why would anyone? Why would anyone normal?

People who 'feel' they have been 'provoked' can respond with vindictive violence.

Someone capable of inflicting this level of violence, well once they lose the head, the level of violence inflicted is a factor of what weapons they can lay their hands on and their strength \ stamina.

You don't have to have a personal interest.

Why do people get brutally beaten to death in road rage incidents by strangers?

Serial killers inflict horrible injuries to 'depersonalise' a victim who they do not know.

I'm not saying it wasn't someone with a personal interest, I'm just challenging the point it has to be.

Coopcrow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954710#Comment_117954710

The person who killed her wasn't normal. It wasn't a normal person who happened upon her or was spying on her.

Yes, people respond with violence. But the level of violence here is extreme. It wasn't a random person. Someone bashed her face in to the extent her own brother couldn't recognise her.

For a death of this severity, you do have to have a personal interest. Her face was battered beyond recognition. Almost everyone involved or had an interest (gardai, journalists, etc) said it was the worst scene they ever came across. Also, the scene itself was untouched. That indicates it was someone with very low knowledge of crime scenes. That rules out a PI as well.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954792#Comment_117954792

How many serial killer victims have these gardai or journalists come across? How many murder victims full stop?

To state that the severity of the violence indicates a personal interest is simply wrong and is disproven both by e.g. road rage incidents and serial killer de-personalisation attempts.

And for someone with a very low knowledge of crime scenes, they have done a remarkable job of not leaving any identifiable forensics.