Murder at the Cottage | Sky

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960071#Comment_117960071

Hinting at? I'm saying that there was a higher probability that Alfie and Shirley were the perpetrators than someone like Ian Bailey. The Guards failed to investigate them for whatever reason.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960152#Comment_117960152

But you have zero evidence against them.

How is it ok for you to cast aspersions on Shirley with no evidence, yet you feel it unfair if someone does the very same to Jules?

OwlsZat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960186#Comment_117960186

That's how any investigation should take place. Keep an open mind and investigate all suspects and leads. It's as if you've forgotten too.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960109#Comment_117960109

If the coffee was a regular event, well then it isn`t any indication of guilt. But it wouldn`t indicate innocence either because if he was covering up, then he would need to keep to his routine. But if he rarely or never brought her coffee in bed, then I would question what came over him to do it on the morning of the murder. If someone does something unexpected for me I am immediately thinking "Well what have you done or what do you want?"

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960097#Comment_117960097

Bailey was around Sophie`s age (two years older). He also looked to be in good physical shape at the time. Apparently he used to do quite a bit of walking.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960186#Comment_117960186

She and Alfie were the only people within a fairly wide radius of the crime scene. Of course they should have been the subject of serious investigation.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960324#Comment_117960324

By serious investigation, do you mean pulled in separately like Bailey and Jules with no evidence against them?

Just a note about the wine bottle... something I haven’t seen mentioned is the possibility that it wasn’t a romantic gesture, but a Christmas present from a neighbour?

In the rural area where I live the neighbours dropped a bottle of wine into us in the days leading up to Christmas.

I also don’t really know how the claim that ‘not everyone is completely shook by a murder happening on their doorstep’ re Shirley going about her business that day ties in with the fact she was said to be a completely broken women later in life.

anyway being an accomplice to a murder has every possibility of leaving you a broken women for the rest of your days.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960390#Comment_117960390

I read it cost about 70 punts and wasnt available in Ireland but was sold in France including aairport.

Seems more likely it was bought to impress or as a thank you than a neighbourly present.

Of course it might not have anything to do with the case, but ties in with reports of holiday homes being broken into and their drinks cabinets raided.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960419#Comment_117960419

Well perhaps Alfie or Shirley liked wine, and had bought it at an off duty previously?

seeing as there was tension between the neighbours, perhaps one of them brought it to Sophie as a peace offering/Christmas present that morning. Maybe she rejected it and became cutting or even said I’m not going to let this drug thing go ...maybe that’s when one of them grabbed her and the altercation ensued.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960388#Comment_117960388

Why would I want that? There are perfectly legal means of carrying out questioning and applying for search warrants as I've only recently pointed out.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960450#Comment_117960450

Its possible but a bit of a stretch ... 70 punts was a lot of money in the 1990s and the Lyons didnt seem that flush with cash even considering Alfies side business.

I like a glass of wine too but have never spent more than 50 euros on a bottle!

If the killing is connected to the drugs they could be implicated but my gut feel is indirectly rather than the actual assailants. More of a tell us when she is there alone and look the other way, and whoever did go went there with the view to threaten rather than kill and things got out of hand.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960490#Comment_117960490

I didn't ask what you wanted, just what you meant by serious investigation.

How do you know they were not seriously investigated and a search carried out legally?

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960097#Comment_117960097

I'm more inclined to believe that there was no chase, that Sophie confronted someone or people down by the gate. There is some idea out there that Alfie was at death's door when he died almost twenty five years later. Shirley is still alive so the idea that either or both of them together weren't capable of this murder is unreasonable. That isn't saying they did it, but that they were capable.

While the killing was horrific, once Sophie had been rendered unconscious or at least seriously injured with blows from some heavy ironbar like object, the final blows with the block could have been carried out calmly. People say that whoever wielded that block must have been driven by rage and hatred but it's more likely that it was to ensure she wouldn't live to tell the tale. That is why I think the block was not near her head when she was found. The killer(s) checked that she was dead.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960531#Comment_117960531

Because the Guards would have been at pains to tell us that they did.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960546#Comment_117960546

Sounds also like a plausible story. And yes, there is no reason, not to think that Alfie and Shirley could have been involved. What also could have been is if there were two killers no matter who it was, they could have gagged her or shut her up easier, thus no noise was heard with Alfie and Shirley. They could both then carried her to the gate and bashed her head in even more.

What I don't think is that a man the size and attitude of Bailey could have carried out this murder in total silence. Bailey would have frightened Sophie especially after a night in the pub. The murder and the whole encounter would have been loud.

For the murder to be quiet and leaving no evidence, it would have taken either two, or if one, it was carefully thought through on how.

thecretinhop

the wine bottle is interesting

a few questions

surely wine and label wud be tracable ie. batch number in airport.

was till recipt checked in airport to match time and date of purchase.

any witness i.e sales staff interviewed

just some thoughts

jimwallace197

Whether people think Alfie or Shirley were involved or not is irrelevant, they should have been properly questioned to say the least & it doesn't look like they were.

I personally don't think they were involved but I find it incredulous that they didnt hear one thing despite being neighbors in an isolated area like that to STDP, also that Alfie had a bandaged hand the next day and that there was a least one dispute that we know of, the gate. Possibly more considering Alfies proven drug involvement & Sophie's reputation for liking to complain a lot. As well as this, the fact that she didn't run to her neighbors instead of running to a gate in the middle of nowhere. They would have also been well placed to know that she was on her own that night, I doubt many other people in the locality would have known that.

The Alfie Lyons issue points to a lack of effort by the gards to follow up all possible angles in relation to this case & raises another question as to why they didn't. They had as much reason to question him as they did Bailey in hindsight. Was it because they knew Alfie better than Bailey and doubted his involvement or because they were being bribed to look the other way in relation to his and Alfie Bolgers drug operations. Or because one of their own was involved and they knew Alfie wouldnt go against them out of fear.

It's a direction the investigation should have gone in but unfortunately didnt & I'm sure with specific reason.

saabsaab

What if there were two separate altercations? One at her door where she drove her visitor(s) away towards the gate. Then after a minute the visitor is chased with the axe and a fight starts at the gate etc.

I guess a scenario needs to explain the gate and door stains the block, the missing axe and the French wine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960546#Comment_117960546

Fair points. So how about this for a bit of speculation. After all, that's all we are doing here isn't it, speculating on possible scenarios for the murder.

Ian and Jules did go up there after the pub, looking for a party at Alfies. They got there and discovered the light was actually in Sophie's house. Bailey says, let's knock and see if she's up for a friendly drink. Sophie opens up but is far from friendly, Bailey tries to flirt by speaking in French, Jules gets jealous. An argument escalates and Jules picks up a poker and attacks Sophie with it, striking her on the head. Sophie runs out, Bailey gives chase, initially trying to calm her but by the time he catches up with her at the gate she is hysterical, torn with briars, tangled on barbed wire and bleeding badly from the wound on her head. Bailey decides the only thing he can do is finish the job and then get the hell out of there. He goes back to the house, finds Jules there holding the bottle of wine, they go home, on the way Bailey takes the wine off Jules and flings it out the window. At home Jules goes to sleep, Bailey goes to clean up.

So all this time, Bailey was actually covering for Jules.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960595#Comment_117960595

Interesting angle.

On the one hand I wouldnt expect a lot of bottles of it were sold at that price.

But in 1996 may have been largely paper records could be hard to cross reference sales of specific bottles with flights to Ireland.

I havent read anything to suggest that was looked into.

And now the bottle is lost... havent even seen it named.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960677#Comment_117960677

Hmm...

Would you really knock at the door after midnight - even if merry - of a single woman at home alone you barely knew... just to try to continue the party?

But why not just stick to a scripted alibi that Jules and Ian that they were at home all night?

If they were going about together I assume they drove.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960677#Comment_117960677

Well it's no less credible than the one that they had about Bailey

thecretinhop

anyone have pic of bottle

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960109#Comment_117960109

Obvious. Tie him to a dunking stool. If he drowns, he's innocent. If he survives he's guilty. 😏

dmc17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960546#Comment_117960546

This is the feeling I get too. I find it hard to imagine that she would have run down to the gate in the dark of night, albeit a moonlit one after being attacked at the door. I get the feeling she may have went to the gate early morning after getting up and putting on boots to go outside. Maybe it was to close the gate or confront someone. I wonder was there much traffic in and out through the lane way? Maybe the gate was left open and secured with a concrete block to accommodate the comings and goings of couriers etc....

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960419#Comment_117960419

ties in with reports of holiday homes being broken into and their drinks cabinets raided.

Must have been a real connoiseur that housebreaker, turning up his nose at bogstandard airport plonk...

chooseusername

Ok while we're speculating,

The last person in through the gate on Sunday evening was probably Sophie, sometime after 5 pm,

she would have closed the gate, as was her wont.

The postman delivered around 6pm, but there appeared to be a post-box by the gate so he would have no reason

to go beyond the gate.

(Unless of course, it being Christmas he might have ventured up to the house for his gratuity, a glass of whiskey was the norm I think.)

Anyway, dawn breaks on that fateful Monday morning and Sophie having had her breakfast and washed up the dishes and glasses,

was sitting at her kitchen table reading.

She glances down the front of her house and notices the gate is open.

Or maybe she sees someone actually leaving the gate open as she was looking.

The only people who had a right to pass through that gate were the 3 households or their visitors.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960816#Comment_117960816

Or maybe they didnt have a corkscrew, grabbed stuff in a hurry and when they had a proper look at it dumped it. Could be a local hobo or teenagers.

Im not clear on the specific location it was found in though. If it was found close to the cottage would have to assume connected to Sophie somehow.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960677#Comment_117960677

This is less plausible than most other scenarios posted here. Didn't Jules daughter come home at 2:30am and notice that Ian was out? Guessing that infers that Jules was in bed asleep. Also it's highly unlikely that 2 assailants would leave no forensic evidence behind them in a brutal murder. Twice as unlikely in fact that a single assailant would leave no trace. Thirdly, if they were both culpable for her murder they surely would have provided each other a watertight alibi and Jules would never have admitted to Ian leaving their bedroom in the middle of the night.

It's not even a remotely plausible theory.

I do find it strange that neither Alfies or Shirley were ever questioned in any probing manner by the Gardai. Honestly, I don't think either of them did it or had anything to do with it. But, they were the only people confirmed in the vicinity of the murder, Alfie had an injured hand from a dog bite and doesn't even own a dog and there had been some tension between Alfie and Sofie in the past about closing the entrance gate. At a very minimum that should have been grounds for deeper investigation by the Gardai, even if just to rule them out. Why that wasn't done is anyone's guess. It's something Dermot Dwyer should be challenged hard on next time he is interviewed by any journalist or documentarian.