Murder at the Cottage | Sky

jimwallace197

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021354#Comment_118021354

And rightly so, many reasons to call them out especially in relation to the case but one of the reasons why I've defended Bailey is because he's had his reputation destroyed without proper proof and plenty or rumor. I haven't destroyed anyone's reputation & don't intend to either unless there is very good reason to. And the gards investigation deserves to be torn apart in this investigation, they destroyed key pieces of evidence, bribed witnesses to give false statements, fabricated statements, & engaged in a local campaign to ruin a mans life without a shred of hard evidence.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020452#Comment_118020452

how? can you link? i don't think you can search archives without a sub.The southern star archive goes to irish news archives which need sub Southern Star (irishnewsarchive.com)

whiterebel

Could it have been a case of mistaken identity? Drug smugglers figure that Alfie may be a drug agency plant due to his American background. Send someone around to the house to send a message, a really messy one. Get the wrong house?

nc6000

The Prime Time special this week on organised crime gangs and the lengths they go to to get drugs into Europe was quite an eye-opener, who knows what was going on in the area or what was being smuggled into the country that night. Someone could have been meeting a boat in the area for a collection then takes a wrong turn or two on the way out and ends up at the house and things take a turn for the worst.

I'm not trying to introduce some crazy conspiracy theory into the discussion but the complete lack of evidence makes it hard to rule anything out really.

dmc17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027883#Comment_118027883

Go to the homepage of the news archive and there is a search box where you can choose the newspaper, the year range and the keywords you want to search for. You can then see the headlines but can't click into the articles though

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118028925#Comment_118028925

The thing is, that the drug business is highly profitable and the methods of business are ruthless. It's not impossible what you're describing here but it sure is one of the top motives.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118028860#Comment_118028860

The only thing is that they stayed put. Would they not have run if that was the case? The killer would have known soon enough afterwards that it was the wrong house and might try again.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118028860#Comment_118028860

I don't think so. First of all, the killer would not have been paid if he killed the wrong person, and would later on have tried to kill the intended target in order to get paid for the job. He would also not have been so dumb to mistake a woman for a man and vice versa. If the killer was only at the wrong house, than the real victim could only have been Shirley, and that one I don't find plausible at all.

The killer wanted to kill Sophie not anybody else. The killer also knew that he wasn't at the wrong house.

mamboozle

While some drug angle isn't unreasonable in this murder, leaving a dead body, attracting police scrutiny and national attention to a critical point in the smuggling chain wouldn't seem to be in keeping with the way business is done.

That might indicate a more mundane motive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118028972#Comment_118028972

you're correct my apologies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018811#Comment_118018811

One of the claims made here for example is that John O' Donnell died on 9/09/01 so we should be able to substantiate that claim

as dmc17 said you cannot click into the articles

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030554#Comment_118030554

The body was left to be found and that leads to the consideration it was done to send a message, same goes for the brutality. I'd say the murderer could have hidden the body with ease behind the briars and brambles or behind the pump house. He had time and it was most likely dark at the time, and there was little risk that Alfie or Shirley would have seen him at this night time. Yes, the body would have been discovered if hidden behind the briars, but not that soon, and certainly not by Alfie and Shirley. Maybe one or two days, maybe if she didn't show up for the flight, not return the phone calls to France or to the housekeeper or whomever she was expecting the next day to fix something around the house, and then somebody would have started looking for her.....

Does anyone know the weather the night after Sophie was killed, the night she had to be left in place for Harbison.? I have seen people, not on this thread, say rain washed away DNA. Did it rain the night after? The night of the killing itself was cold frost almost zero.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030814#Comment_118030814

As far as I know, it didn't rain that night and the next couple of nights. At the night of the murder there was a slight wind. At least that's what I read here.

Darc19

Christ, some of the theories have gone off the Richter scale now. So funny.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030741#Comment_118030741

Somehow the message thing is very far fetched.Why would anyone with premeditation go to all that trouble? I see it as a spur of the moment act.

Horrific yes but the brutality appears to me to be a desperate act of ensuring the victim didn't live to tell the tale.

In the Irish Times today there are some revelations about Garda conduct we haven't heard before. Could there be something in this;

"While the initial wave of reviews would involve checking that live investigations were being progressed professionally and quickly, and that full files were being sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions, Mr Harris said once that work was completed, older cases were also likely to be checked."

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030896#Comment_118030896

The thing is, we don't know. We're all just guessing and speculating. I would be inclined to think it was a premeditated murder for several reasons:

The killer must have planned for Sophie to be there, he must have known that the time frame for the murder was limited as it was just a short trip and the the killer must also have known that she was alone. The killer must also have known of the benefit that the other house was unoccupied and in the worst case scenario he only had Alfie and Shirley who would have gotten in the way. If she was killed where she was found Alfie and Shirley could not have seen the murder from their house, but I believe this spot could be seen from the other then unoccupied house. However that's only my speculative theory.

Would the killer have hidden the body behind the briars and not seen from the road, it would have bought the killer some time to get away. Just 24 hours would have been good, or even if the body was discovered in the late afternoon, it would have helped the killer. However the killer wasn't interested in gaining time, the killer must have felt save in terms of timeframe, he made sure the body was where it could never have been overlooked.

He would have guessed that either Alfie or Shirley would take the car to go shopping for at least basic food items and this road was the only road in and out and anybody could have gotten that guess right. Suppose the body would have been parallel to the road, and passing by car was easy, and anybody driving in a hurry would not immediately have stopped, not even guessed that a human being would have been lying there, (how many times have we driven down a country road in Ireland, and things were beside the road...) maybe only a careful driver would have noticed something in the rear view mirror, or at best spotted Sophie on the way back from the shopping trip.....

However that was all not the case, the body was put in a position to be discovered quickly.

But again, it's not that I am right or you are wrong, it's just my personal speculative deduction of the situation.

TalleyRand83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118028860#Comment_118028860

Jaysus, the totally over the top Hollywood theories I’ve seen on here! Anything but point the finger at the clear and obvious prime suspect……so many of you are 100% certain Bailey didn’t do it but you all throw these madcap far fetched scenarios like they are more probabe

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030936#Comment_118030936

It's because of daft speculation around Bailey that we are where we are. It has been pointed out by others that a hitman would most likely have murdered Sophie in her house. What benefit could it possibly be to anyone if a body is found sooner rather than later?

It isn't all guesswork. Quite a few people have made it their business to dig around in Bailey's past. Why wasn't there anything remotely like this for Alfie Lyons or Shirley Foster, if only to justify arguments that they were beyond suspicion?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031019#Comment_118031019

It's not beyond reason that Alfie was running drugs or part of a drug ring, and was possibly coerced or even blackmailed to do it, but I don't think this is what happened. I'd say, if Alfie and Shirley were involved in the murder or actually did it themselves they would have sold their house sooner and moved away. I don't think they could have lived with the guilt for so long as neighbours. However that was not the case, Shirley only sold recently and moved away, just after Alfie passed away, so it's probably more memories with Alfie and wishing for a change that motivated the sale, rather than anything else we're speculating here..... The only thing that still bugs me about Alfie and Shirley is that they didn't hear anything at all that night.

What people are forgetting here is the motive: At this point, where we can only speculate and have no new evidence coming up, I'd say the focus needs to be on motive only. Who had cause and interest enough to get Sophie out of the way?

For whom was it important enough to kill Sophie, and risk being seen, being caught and ending up with 25 to possibly 30 years behind bars?

Unless you're a complete madman out of a lunatic asylum, which we would now exclude in our theories, the killer had to make sure that the chances of not getting caught was totally on his side and the reason to run any risks no matter how low or how secure he felt of ending nor not ending up in jail for 25 to 30 years would have to be justifiable for this murder.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031063#Comment_118031063

Because it happens in so many murder/manslaughter cases, it doesn't have to be any different in this one; An argument that goes too far. There is a lot of madcap speculation about how it was planned when it looks anything but.

If there was probability for Bailey and so arrest and questioning of himself and Jules, there was far more for Alfie and Shirley. I'm not saying anything about guilt. Curious they were not definitively ruled out

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031401#Comment_118031401

Suppose the murder was unplanned: The murderer would have to have driven or walked to Sophie's house, just on the off chance, to see whether she was home or not. However he still must have had a reason to go there and visit her, - whatever that was. To discuss something important, to have sex, we don't know. They had an argument about whatever subject ( loud, noise, etc.. ) and one thing lead to another. She ran away, down that lane, and the killer then caught up with her, and finished her off with a cavity block he found in the spur of the moment on the side of the road. Also in such a case, she would hardly have been silent, most likely screamed on top of her lungs. The killer would also have built up so much hate for Sophie in that argument to bash her head in so many times. The killer would not have known what Alfie's and Shirley's habits where, when they went to bed etc.... Also the killer would not have had the feeling of certainty and safety of not being seen, heard, or discovered, not have known that the other house in view of the murder site was sitting empty. He would most likely have made sure, that the body wasn't discovered immediately the next morning, maybe later on that day, if not the next day. The killer would then have returned home, washed up, cleaned up, possibly also his car, rested, and was calm and composed once his wife gotten curious or the police knocked on this door to ask routine questions.....

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031593#Comment_118031593

Hmm.

If something 'got out of hand', so unplanned, hiding the body would create so much uncertainty with time of death, your lack of alibi wouldnt matter. The killer seems to have had the frame of mind to remove some of the weapons used.

Sophie had a meeting at noon I think with the housekeeper. But they would be unlikely to know that.

Someone premeditated either already had alibi lined up or confident wouldnt need one. But then if planned... did they bring weapons with them? Or could it have been an attempt at intimidatiom that ended up with Sophie dead?

Deeec

Sophies location of murder and the murderer choosing to leave the body where it would definitely be found within few hours later could have been tactical.

The body being found just before christmas no doubt contributed to the botched Gardai investigation. Had the body been found any other time of year more resources and time would have been put in. I doubt the detectives or gardai involved sacrificed their Christmas day for the murder investigation - thus vital time was lost. Possibly the murderer knew this.

If Sophies body had been bought back and left in the house she wouldnt have been found until after Christmas. I dont think Alfie and Shirley would have checked on her. The alarm would only have been raised by family after christmas when she didnt return for christmas and couldnt be contacted.

tdf7187

Talk of Sophie having an unscheduled encounter with a psychotic drugs gang is pie-in-the-sky stuff.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118032316#Comment_118032316

This sounds all very plausible. The care taker she had in her service, would probably only thought she was rude, not answering the phone or the door. However apart from her family, I'd say also the rental car company would have started investigating, if she didn't return the car at the expected time. Usually one can prolong a car rental, but I'd say after a couple of days, they would have gotten curious and involved the police at a certain stage, To the airline, she would just have been a no show passenger.

All this in mind, I'd say the killer knew that he could not have prolonged the discovery of Sophie's body for too long. 24 hours for her family in France and 48 hours for the rental company to get active.

Alfie and Shirley, maybe have noticed something odd after one week? Car not moved and still parked in the same spot for one week must have caught their attention at some point. A knock on the door not answered and a phone call to the police.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031593#Comment_118031593

With the body left so exposed and likely to be found in daylight it opens the question if the setting was staged somehow. Especially since no external DNA was recovered.

Thespoofer

Anyone hear the story about IB sorting out a couple of lads from the north side ( Cork city ) who were staying at a guest house/hotel causing problems there ?

I've heard through work ( don't know how true it is ) but it goes that Bailey was approached by a local in Schull complaining about a couple of city lads causing hassle in their guest room, Bailey took it upon himself to go sort them out and off he goes.

Following morning guys are gone, received an unmerciful beating from Bailey, blood all over the room.

All before STDP murder I'd imagine.

If this story was posted in this thread earlier apologies.

If true its just an insight to the guys capabilities I suppose.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118032774#Comment_118032774

There was plenty of DNA recovered. It was largely Sophies, but then the gate could have contained more... Perhaps why it was discarded before the other items were re-tested at various times.

There is the DNA on her boot tho, that belonged to a mystery male. Never been attempted to be matched, which I think is criminal in itself.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118032823#Comment_118032823

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118032316#Comment_118032316

Bailey strikes me as a coward who would run a mile rather than confront two hard nuts from Farranree. He chooses victims weaker than himself who won't fight back. Like Jules.

There was nothing tactical or planned about the killing of Sophie but the killer, at the very least, knew the chances of him being seen or heard either committing the act or in it's immediate aftermath would be slim to none. He already knew Alfie and Sophie would be asleep in bed and that the other house was unoccupied. But these matters would barely have crossed his mind either before or after because this was a spur of the moment crime of passion sparked by rejection, humiliation??? Who knows. Logic, rationale and planning never entered into it.