Murder at the Cottage | Sky

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088067#Comment_118088067

thanks for your (by your standards) short post. The bottle is vexatious

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088067#Comment_118088067

It seems from the google maps and from my interpretation of the description given that the bottle was found within 500-800M from her house. I agree we can't say how it got there but it is so odd that it should have been followed up if only to rule it out in connection with the murder. It was stated that the wine wasn't available for sale in Ireland at the time. Why would someone steal a bottke of wine to throw it away? If worried about being linked to the crime then why dump it so near the scene. If it was whoever was using her bath they are certainly a person of interest.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088107#Comment_118088107

Why does anyone throw away anything they've stolen? Honest like. Spell it out.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088107#Comment_118088107

I don't want to give the wrong impression. Yes, it's odd to find an expensive bottle of French wine, which apparently is really unavailable in Ireland. On the latter one I wouldn't be certain. Yes I agree the bottle should have been followed up on, however even if you had the one individual who bought the wine with certainty, it would not have proven in a court of law that he was the killer, even if there were fingerprints on it. The bottle was not used as a murder weapon to kill Sophie. It probably would only have been an indication, maybe an invited or un-invited guest, who brought a present? Something like that? We can only speculate.

Do we know if Bruno visited the cottage earlier in the year, or later, after the murder? Do we know if the Guard from Bantry was in the habit of travelling to France on occasion, bringing back wine? Did Alfie and Shirley ever travel to France? All good questions.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087649#Comment_118087649

This is the first lane I can find off the right hand side of that road from 2000

osi2000.jpg

Today there is a house up that lane;

googlemap.jpg

I don't know who that land belonged to at that time but the house that's there now is owned by an M.H,

The Hs shared several boundaries with Sophie's property

including the right of way for the first 20 yards or so from the gate up to the first bend

and a boundary with her front lawn on the western side, where a landlocked 1/3 acre plot

could only be accessed through other properties, one of which was Sophies.

Also the shed to the west of Sophie's house that was contentious is not on what was Alfies

property but on Sophie's or rather her son's.

Polly701

I think the wine was thrown into the ditch by someone in a rage, not thinking straight.

Would the Guards have searched such a wide area around a murder scene? Perhaps not.. If there was any sort of an innocent explanation for the wine being left in a ditch then surely the person involved would have come forward to rule themselves out?

I don't believe it was stolen by a randomer as why do that and then throw it away? And I don't believe the wine is no way connected to the murder. Just too coincidental.

It could have been the Bantry Guard.. Thrown from his car while driving away from the scene in a panic.

It could have been the German musician.. He had hoped to hook up with her but she rejected him..

It could have been her ex Bruce who had turned up unexpectedly but had been told in no uncertain terms by her to leave.

I don't believe for a second that IB would have thrown away an expensive bottle of red wine!

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088130#Comment_118088130

no worries, I'd say most of us are right with our impressions

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088142#Comment_118088142

"I think the wine was thrown into the ditch by someone in a rage, not thinking straight." Had they been thinking straight what would they have done?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088157#Comment_118088157

It's not impossible to think that the bottle of wine could have delivered the first blow to Sophie's head. She lost consciousness and went down, collapsed. The murderer then picked up the cavity brick and bashed her head in, before that, he wiped the bottle clean of fingerprints and threw it far away.......

it's all speculation, of course.

Anybody with taste would have enjoyed the bottle of wine slowly and in good company. Any possible sexual willingness would have followed easier.......speculating again......

dmc17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088157#Comment_118088157

Not leave a bottle near the scene with fingerprints on it?

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088492#Comment_118088492

Those can easily be wiped off. Of course the wine could have been nabbed by some investigating Guard at the scene who later thought better of it and flung it away

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077905#Comment_118077905

"A neighbourhood dispute. We would have learned about that one by now. Questions raised to a solicitor, a planning permission not granted, other letters exchanged, or things being approved after Sophie's death, as she was no longer in the way? Nothing of that sort happened. "

Ownership of the disputed shed was confirmed as Sophie's or her son's in 2008 and not Alfie's as he had claimed.

Polly701

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088157#Comment_118088157

If the person was thinking straight they would have taken the bottle home with them.. Emptied it and disposed of the bottle. Or, at the very least, take it far away from the crime scene.

If it was an empty bottle I wouldn't pay too much attention to it... But a full bottle is odd. Someone bought it with the intention of drinking it or gifting it... So how did it get into a ditch? It was thrown there presumably.. Why? Who throws a full bottle of wine into the ditch?! It's not a logical action.. It has the hallmarks of someone who was angry/upset/ worked up about something /not thinking straight..

The bottle of wine could have been placed by a relative or other mourner at the spot of her death, as memorial items sometimes are. People don't always just lay flowers.

Someone passing might by have picked it up, then realised it was a scummy thing to do so threw it away. Or maybe it was taken by kids who couldn't open it and discarded it.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089788#Comment_118089788

I can think of a few plausible, innocent enough, scenarios where two or more people in a car might decide to get rid of it. A simple one where Garda A says look at this, a nice present for someone and Garda B realises that it's not a common one and begins to roll down the window. Or a couple on their way to visit some friends when A asks "do we need to get a bottle of wine?" B replies "No, I put one from the cabinet in my bag" which causes A to plead "not that f**ken French one?" as he begins to roll down the window.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089757#Comment_118089757

So how did the dispute end? 25 years on, there must be some kind of agreement, or are the current owners still having a dispute?

marieholmfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090234#Comment_118090234

Absurd so people just fling bottles of wine around? Where would the policeman have got this locally unavailable wine?

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090298#Comment_118090298

It was red wine, best at room temperature but in both cases the wine was hot

Polly701

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090234#Comment_118090234

Not sure if you're joking?! Ridiculous scenarios..

saabsaab

Cork teens unable to open a bottle of wine! Most far out suggestion on the thread so far and there have been some.

chicorytip

Where did Shirley Foster move to after leaving Toormore?

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088067#Comment_118088067

It would be impulsive behaviour on Bailey's part if the scenario you describe did in fact play out. A tendency to act impulsively would be more common in those consume large quantities of alcohol on a regular basis. I think it is widely accepted this was not a planned killing .

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090249#Comment_118090249

I don't know what happened after the murder,

what agreement was reached or if there is any ongoing dispute, which I doubt.

but in 2008 it transferred over from Alfie's folio to Sophie's son, Pierre Louis Baudey.

It was dealt with by solicitor Gerard Moylan of Loughrea, co Galway.

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090652#Comment_118090652

Almost all speculation around the bottle of wine, as with the reason for the murder, has been ridiculous. The lost opportunity in this case was how Alfie Lyons wasn't put under anything like the scrutiny that Ian Bailey was. Where were all the investigative writers with such an obvious source of information? He might have said something about what had been happening in the area in the days and weeks leading up to the murder but there was nothing. He wasn't asked about the suggestion that Sophie changed the locks and was suspicious of him. He wasn't asked about his reason for considering that a shed between their houses was his.

In an interesting twist, Ian just shared Nick fosters phone number on twitter...

*grabs popcorn*

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091412#Comment_118091412

Agreed on the bottle of wine issue. However regarding Alfie Lyons what should also be taken into consideration is his age and health. Was he agile enough to chase after her? That is, if Sophie was chased down the road. Or strong enough to do the killing? There have been numerous posts about his health. Also didn't Alfie and Shirley host a party or having guests over that night? Do we know who was at their place that night? In the end, it would suggest Sophie was killed afterwards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091026#Comment_118091026

That's what I'd be interested in as well? Maybe back to the UK? or somewhere else in Ireland?

saabsaab

It certainly doesn't look like a planned killing. However, no evidence was found at the scene (except the blood on the shoelaces recently. It was done without attracting any attention (it appears). She felt uneasy at the visit, was she expecting trouble. She was only there a few days so very unlucky? Items useful to the case have vanished (axe/poker, diaries, bottle)

mamboozle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091470#Comment_118091470

There have been things said about his health but when avoiding cameras at the libel trial six or seven years later he looked agile enough. Shirley ran up the field in front of Sophie's house and the lane to her own on discovering the body. Either one of them would have been able to carry out the murder if Sophie had come down to confront one of them at the gate. I'm not saying they did it, just that the idea they couldn't is extreme.

While the investigation was messed up it could be that within days of the murder the Guards realised they had very little to work with. Some of them would also have realised that it would reflect very badly on the local community if they didn't come up with someone quickly. Then when Bailey started to annoy them with his reporting, the fact that he lived nearby and had a record of domestic abuse meant he looked like a great fit. Even better he was an English bol*ox.

jimwallace197

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091588#Comment_118091588

None of that is grounds enough to paint an innocent man as a murderer though. Whatever the rationale the gards had for stitching him up, their meant to be better than that. One of the reasons why their given a position of authority & privilege in our society in the first place.

I dont think Alfie did it but I think he knew alot more about the murder that night than he let on either through what he might have heard & seen that night or what he knew might have known through the local community. The differences in the investigation between him & Shirley & what Bailey/Jules Thomas went through speaks volumes. Either there was an element of coverup with the gards or there was severe anglophobia in the locality & I doubt the latter because there was so many English people living in the community already.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091829#Comment_118091829

Same goes for the Ungerers. Many inconsistencies in their statements and they knew Sophie personally, not to mention things in Daniels statements about them that weren't released publicly.

They weren't terrorised by the Gards tho.

The whole thing stinks. How people continue to defend the gardai in this is beyond me.