Murder at the Cottage | Sky

jill_valentine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118376643#Comment_118376643

I don't know if it's still considered legit and pop psychology is always dangerous, but this kind of convoluted sentence structure and useless "verbal styrofoam" around a simple denial is or was considered a hallmark of liars. The classic example is somebody saying "I can say I didn't do it" instead of just "I didn't do it". Nixon was particularly famous for it.

Andrea B.

Cannabis was viewed in France and many parts of mainland Europe as an acceptable social drug long before here.

An artist such as STDP moving into a locality with a community of numerous bohemian types, being put out by and then snitching on the grass trade?

Highly unlikely imho.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118376918#Comment_118376918

If Garda Prenderville is still alive it would be an easy matter for him to clear up. Who was the informant. It is one thing to grow a few plants for oneself but a bunker with two rooms. I wonder if the block Sophie was struck with was part of the construction of it? Maybe she decided to have a look around at night thinking nobody was around and encountered the builders of the bunker.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118376890#Comment_118376890

What is the evidence for saying convoluted sentence structure was considered a hallmark of liars? Considered by who? Is it part of so called statement analysis which is pseudo science

Anyone have the full interview it is paywalled

MonkieSocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118376918#Comment_118376918

Agree with the above.

Garda have said Sophie didn't make a compliant to them about anyone

In this article https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-assessing-toscan-du-plantier-murder-file-to-see-if-cold-case-review-needed-1.4756240

However, the Garda has said that Ms Toscan du Plantier never made a complaint about anyone.

Sources close to her said that while she had an issue with a neighbour in the Toormore area, she took advice locally and decided against making any complaint to gardaí.

I wonder who was giving legal advice to her about the neighbour?

Is this the person she had arranged to meet the morning she was killed?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377094#Comment_118377094

It says local, not legal.

I think people here are missing the point; she may not have made an official complaint, ie a statement. That doesn't mean she didn't give an *informal one*

Remember, the case against Alfie fell apart for that very reason: the warrant wasnt properly executed, because the garda did not reveal his source and judge Wallace agreed that "this type of evidence was not sufficient to secure a search warrant"

MonkieSocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377058#Comment_118377058

Anyone have the full interview it is paywalled

The article is paywalled here https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ian-bailey-i-dont-need-to-know-who-murdered-sophie-41183228.html

Anyone have access to it

EdHoven

Some more info about Alfie and Shirley. They were running "Basil Bush" from 1976. So the G. Lyons female child there in 1981 is a mystery. Maybe Alfie had a family in the US and he brought a daughter back. I can find no record of him in the US. He says he was in Greenwich Village NYC and Vermont.

I think Alfie was born in 1931.

Also Shirley was an art teacher. Jules her nearish neighbour is an artist. Ian and Alfie were pals. It seems odd Jules and Shirley weren't friends. At least not friendly enough for Shirley to telephone them and say what had occurred at Dreenane on the 23rd.

silver2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118376643#Comment_118376643

After 25 years of being asked the same question 100 different ways, you might you give a slightly different form of the same answer.

If someone bludgeoned mrs chicorytip and it wasn't you, you may give a very direct answer for a while, but if they never found the person who did it and you had been asked that same question literally thousands of times over 25 years, you might change it just a little.

Andrea B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377094#Comment_118377094

"Sources close to her said that while she had an issue with a neighbour in the Toormore area, she took advice locally and decided against making any complaint to gardaí."

This would be such a credible lead. Who are those "sources close to her" and why would they not agree to be named?

Because, imo, they don't exist.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377196#Comment_118377196

He answered the question that same way 25 years ago in a tv interview.

MonkieSocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377117#Comment_118377117

It says local, not legal.

I think people here are missing the point; she may not have made an official complaint, ie a statement. That doesn't mean she didn't give an *informal one*

Garda said She didn't make any complaint to them, I would take that as neither official or informal.

I think she put on her boots because she had arranged to talk to someone about some problem outside her house on the morning she was killed.

If she wasn't going to go outside, she would probably have just worn her slippers which she had left in the bathroom.

Remember, the case against Alfie fell apart for that very reason: the warrant wasn't properly executed, because the Garda did not reveal his source and judge Wallace agreed that "this type of evidence was not sufficient to secure a search warrant"

Doesn't mean the informant was Sophie, it could have been anybody.

A local source Gardaí wanted to protect.

If it had have been Sophie, I don't think the Guards would have had an issue with naming her.

after all she was deceased at the time of the trial

I don't remember Alfie's trial, do you mean Leo Bolger's trial.

Who was the informant who gave up Leo?

If it had have been Sophie, I don't think the Guards would have had an issue with naming her.

after all she was deceased at the time of the trial of Leo

In 2010, Leo Bolger came before Judge Patrick J Moran in Cork Circuit Court charged with running a massive drug production plant near du Plantier’s home. During the hearing, a garda described his cannabis operation as the “most sophisticated” ever witnessed in West Cork. Bolger (45) had built a large bunker in an overgrown part of his land where he cultivated cannabis plants using advanced hydroponics, heating, watering and lighting systems that revolved around the plants to enhance cultivation. At the time, the street value of the plants was at least €150,000.

Bolger pleaded guilty to the offence, which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years and up to life imprisonment. However, the prosecuting garda informed the judge that the defendant had been assisting them with another case. To the consternation of the court and the defence team, Bolger was given a suspended sentence as the sympathetic judge stated he was “perhaps trying to survive in the magnificent peninsula of Dunmanus Bay”.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377094#Comment_118377094

A tip off isnt a complaint though. AGS didnt say we have no record of any contact - playing devils advocate on the wording.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377281#Comment_118377281

Have you never listened to politicians on different channels, different interviews? Everyone does it, they tell a narrative the same way each time A bit like the way you lot repeat the "Bailey did it narrative" each time.

Speaking of which something occurred to me. Alfie was busted in 1994. If he and his buddies decided to literally go underground and build a grow bunker, 1996 could be when it was being built. Everyone says age was catching up with Alfie so maybe the local handymen were building it at night. So when Ian saw the light from Alfie's it wasn't a party but the building activity. Hypothetically maybe Ian was involved in the building and went to his writing cottage each night but then went over to Dreenane.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377345#Comment_118377345

Alfies case went to court in June 1994. Its been linked here more than once.

We don't know for sure wether sophie made a complaint or not, but i certainly wouldn't discount it just because "gardai said so" in an article that doesn't even verify its sources, written by a journo who hates Bailey and thinks he's guilty.

This is not an objective source.

Leos case was years later and seperate from Alfies.

MonkieSocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377382#Comment_118377382

Alfies case went to court in June 1994. Its been linked here more than once.

Have you got that link, I must have missed it.

MonkieSocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377349#Comment_118377349

Agree with this

AGS didnt say we have no record of any contact

No tip off, it would have had to been by phone or she would have to had gone to a Garda station to make a complant or tip off.

No record that Sophie had any contact with the Gardaí about anything

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377364#Comment_118377364

Ah yeah...I listen to the old politicians...it`s gas what you can pick up from them when you read between the lines. Albert Reynolds lost the plot back in the day after he ousted Charlie and became Taoiseach. The ego ran away with him and he kept referring to himself in the third person. Bailey`s "I know I didn`t do it" is a pretty classic indicator of deception. Another possibility is that he actually isn`t sure himself whether he did it or not.

MonkieSocks

I think she put on her boots because she had arranged to talk to someone about some problem outside her house on the morning she was killed.

If she wasn't going to go outside, she would probably have just worn her slippers which she had left in the bathroom.

The killers hands Or gloved hands would have been probably blood stained from the brick and block used to kill Sophie.

These items where probably handled more than once in the attack on Sophie.

He/she probably walked back towards Sophie's house and tried to open the back door and maybe that is how the blood stain got on the back door.

Or he/she was forensically aware and put that blood stain there deliberately.

Either the killer lived very close to her OR the killers car was parked at Sophie's house.

Then took off the blood stainrd gloves and got back into car and left the scene or walked back to their house which was maybe close by.

Wasn't there a fresh skid mark from a car at the scene.

Anyone know where this skid mark was located?

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377535#Comment_118377535

Or maybe he was there but didn't actually do it.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377542#Comment_118377542

skidmarks.png

The blanked out circle is the body.

The skid marks appear to have been done by a car skidding to a halt rather than taking off at speed.

They look more like they were caused by Shirley stopping when she saw the body.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377429#Comment_118377429

Who on Earth do you think would be up that boreen? Alfie wouldn't inform on himself. Doubtful if Shirley would. Leo - I don't think so. Really that only leaves Sophie or Ian Bailey.

I was surprised a Garda of the lowest rank would even seek and get a search warrant. For readers abroad a Peace Commissioner can be more or less anybody. My neighbour is one. If you want something witnessed they have a rubber stamp. I didn't even know they could issue search warrants. It seems yet another oddity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377400#Comment_118377400

It's been posted here at least twice, you'd have to scroll back for the article

Andrea B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377749#Comment_118377749

"Who on Earth do you think would be up that boreen? Alfie wouldn't inform on himself. Doubtful if Shirley would. Leo - I don't think so. Really that only leaves Sophie or Ian Bailey."

Someone (even out of towners) looking to rob a weed harvest? Parked at gate and Sophie comes down and conflict ensues? She was known to be headstrong.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118375512#Comment_118375512

Dwyer is convinced of Bailey's guilt so that comment refers to Ian and Jules Thomas, what they both know about the events of the night in question and whether or not they will ever tell the truth. I don't see how Alfie's little dope growing enterprise could be in any way linked to the death of Sophie. She was probably not even aware it existed given that she spent so little time in the area overall.

mamboozle

The first time I read that Alfie had got off on a technicality I thought it was obvious that this was in exchange for 'assistance'. It looked like there was more than plants, he seemed to have some for sale which meant he was in serious doodoo. I've no idea what was the story but there would have been very few Guards that wouldn't understand that the sale of hash/weed was widespread in west Cork.

In most cases like this the informant is very likely to be someone who is dealing in the area, informing for selfish reasons or, more than likely, is compromised and gives up a friend/rival's name.

Alfie might have been an 'insider' all along, got too big for his boots and got busted to teach him a lesson. In any case, anything Alfie did afterwards, like making statements, was very likely 'under supervision'. Not a reliable witness😉

MonkieSocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377712#Comment_118377712

Thanks.

They look more like they were caused by Shirley stopping when she saw the body.

I wonder how the killer left and arrived at the scene.

The killer either arrived by car or lived close near by to leave the scene on foot

Sophie put on her boots to go outside and talk to her killer about something she maybe was seeking advice on.

This was more probably an arranged meeting.

He probably thought her attire was inviting enough to make advances towards her.

They were rebuffed and he flew into a rage and attacked her.

The initial attack probably happened away from the house BUT a bloodstain was left on the back door.

Did the killer try to open the back door or did he purposely put that bloodstain there to confuse the investigation.

MonkieSocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377749#Comment_118377749

Who on Earth do you think would be up that boreen? Alfie wouldn't inform on himself. Doubtful if Shirley would. Leo - I don't think so. Really that only leaves Sophie or Ian Bailey.

Anyone who bought of Alfie could have been an informant.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377749#Comment_118377749

A peace commissioners warrant does not speak for itself. the PC should question the garda as to why he wants the warrant and should be satisfied there is a genuine case made by the garda. it is not just a rubber stamp exercise. A PC can be summoned to court by the defence to explain why he granted the warrant, If he is dead or not available the warrant can be invalidated

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118378041#Comment_118378041

I did not say a PC granting a search warrant was a rubber stamp. I was explaining to non-Irish readers what they normally do. Which is witness things for people - and their stamp.

As the Citizens Advice website states it is unusual for a PC to grant a search warrant.

I like the way you all ignore the two drugs raids on Alfie's land as if it was Camden. As I understand it Leo's bunker was on Alfie's land too. Do you think the bunker was built after the murder? With the extra police activity and notoriety of the area? In my opinion the bunker was there before the murder. There was industrial growing and the associated comings and goings and Sophie was fed up, went to a guard who then went through the motions. It didn't stop the operation though but made her a pain in the neck to the growers.