Murder at the Cottage | Sky

Gamb!t

Watched the JS and Netflix versions of this case which were both good.

I saw some different versions of Ian Bailey in those documentaries.
The sophisticated, intellectual one where he talks about the arts.
The ramblings of a mad man version.
The tired version of a man either drained from the whole thing or a man with a secret that has been eating away at him.

If we didnt have the proof of those pictures we saw where he had hospitalized JT you probably wouldnt believe it.Maybe the Guards were right when they said he would make a good poker player.

monkeybutter

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who says you cant get away with murder?:eek::eek:

Thanks for posting

That article was of the usual standard of guff you'd expect from the info

He has no idea nothing to add other than his predjudice

dublin49

Woody79 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/in-depth-tea-and-scones-at-the-table-of-sophie-toscan-du-plantiers-suspected-murderer-40608188.html


This lad certainly thinks he did it.

His argument is well framed.

Yeah ,I would imagine alot subcribe to the suspicions this article raises while acknowledging there is no golden bullet to prove Baileys Guilt.

monkeybutter

monkeybutter wrote: »

Thanks for posting

That article was of the usual standard of guff you'd expect from the info

He has no idea nothing to add other than his predjudice

Tiny finger of land, maybe 200 houses. Half of them summer homes, unoccupied, leaves 100. Four-fifths of those remaining occupied by retirees and seniors, not enough strength to lift and wield a cavity block. So that’s 20 houses left. You’re looking for a well-built man in his prime, aged 25 to 40, living locally. How many of those are around here

When you know, you just know.

A hitman from France with adept skills in cavity block killing.

I get it, hes not going to jail for it, ever. But he did it.

Just like OJ.

odyssey06

Woody79 wrote: »

Tiny finger of land, maybe 200 houses. Half of them summer homes, unoccupied, leaves 100. Four-fifths of those remaining occupied by retirees and seniors, not enough strength to lift and wield a cavity block. So that’s 20 houses left. You’re looking for a well-built man in his prime, aged 25 to 40, living locally. How many of those are around here

When you know, you just know.

A hitman from France with adept skills in cavity block killing.

I get it, hes not going to jail for it, ever. But he did it.

Just like OJ.

Remind me again why the murderer had to come from one of those 20 houses???
Why does the murderer have to be aged between 25 and 40???

The article is complete and utter guff.
Seasoned hacks are they?
Just comes across as arrogant.

"What about the scratches" you say Senan.
Well explain to me seasoned hack how someone could get scratches and leave zero forensics at the scene.
Zero.
No hair, no DNA, no blood, no fingerprints.
In a supposed frenzied attack.

You need to upgrade your baloney detector.

Loafing Oaf

Woody79 wrote: »

Who says you cant get away with murder?:eek::eek:

Yeah I thought we weren't allowed to copy and paste whole articles on the forum:p

Loafing Oaf

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Yeah I thought we weren't allowed to copy and paste whole articles on the forum:p

snitchs get stitchs :pac::pac::pac:

Mackwiss

odyssey06 wrote: »

Remind me again why the murderer had to come from one of those 20 houses???
Why does the murderer have to be aged between 25 and 40???

The article is complete and utter guff.
Seasoned hacks are they?
Just comes across as arrogant.

"What about the scratches" you say Senan.
Well explain to me seasoned hack how someone could get scratches and leave zero forensics at the scene.
Zero.
No hair, no DNA, no blood, no fingerprints.
In a supposed frenzied attack.

You need to upgrade your baloney detector.

the small town mentality that comes across in the Netflix documentary is just insane...

oh... look a fire... he's burning the clothes... oh look scratches... that people report to the Gardai months, or years later.

oh yeah I remember Bailey on that morning 2, 3, 4, 5 months ago for sure he's the killer...

One thing the documentary helped is to give a complete image of the mentality...

like the guy in the pub stating "oh yes I was his friend and he confessed to me" it all sounds so non-sensically like a re-enactment of the Witch Trial in The Holy Graal by Monthy Python...

All we need now is put IB in a scales and see if weights the same as a duck and also accuse him of being a witch...

I am afraid now though since he is convicted that trying to prove his innocence comparing his DNA with the one found on Sophie that the French would try to stop the investigation...

If I knew him I would tell him to go to France face the justice show his information though I'm pretty sure he didn't do this for lack of funds...

Lastly and IB aside, yes Sophie still deserves justice, her families pain is still unbearable and again... convicting the wrong man just on his character but without actual evidence that places him at the crime scene, is not blind justice...

If I'm ever proven wrong and yes IB killed her, fine, thanks to the gods it's over this whole theater around a dead woman with her head violently bashed!

But until some concrete evidence comes out... it should be innocent until proven guilty and popular justice, so comedical shown in Monty Pythons movie is wrong and should not have a place in our world of today...

Gussie Scrotch

Woody79 wrote: »

Tiny finger of land, maybe 200 houses. Half of them summer homes, unoccupied, leaves 100. Four-fifths of those remaining occupied by retirees and seniors, not enough strength to lift and wield a cavity block. So that’s 20 houses left. You’re looking for a well-built man in his prime, aged 25 to 40, living locally. How many of those are around here

When you know, you just know.

A hitman from France with adept skills in cavity block killing.

I get it, hes not going to jail for it, ever. But he did it.

Just like OJ.

I am reminded, again and again, of the Colin Stagg case in London. There are so many parallels it is spooky.

a) The evidence against him consisted of of mistaken sightings of him ( times wrong especially)

b)questions about his personality and character - he was interested in Wicca etc,

c) some previous misbehaviour ( he had been done for indecent exposure, for sunbathing nude in a secluded spot on Wimbledon common )

d) a relentless campaign by the police, through the media, to paint him as the culprit.

e) Total lack of a link between him and the victim ( Rachel Nikel - who was also French!)

f) Complete lack of any concrete evidence to link him to the crime

g) Huge swathes of the public utterly, utterly convinced he was guilty ( I was too)

h) The parents of the victim believing totally the police story and saying, publicly, that his acquittal was a travesty of justice.

i) when they couldn't find any hard evidence against him the police resorted to unsafe and unethical methods to try to trap him.

j) Although, unlike Bailey he was charged, the judge threw the case out in short order, publicly castigating the police for their handling of the case. The police, however, made it absolutely plain, again through the media, that they still thought he was guilty and would not be pursuing the case further.

k) He was ostracised and demonised by the local population. His life was made a misery.......


Until, years later, proper methodical and forensic police work identified that he could not have been the killer and another man, in jail for a similar offence was matched through DNA analysis and convicted of the murder.

Colin Stagg was given a public apology and a huge chunk of compensation.


Bailey may be the killer, I don't believe he is, but I acknowledge the possibility.

But the evidence pointing his his direction is no stronger that that which implicated Stagg.

Treppen

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Yeah I thought we weren't allowed to copy and paste whole articles on the forum:p

Hey.... You saw nothing... right?
I'll have to tell everyone about your weird diary if you don't keep a lid on it.

odyssey06

odyssey06 wrote: »

Remind me again why the murderer had to come from one of those 20 houses???
Why does the murderer have to be aged between 25 and 40???

The article is complete and utter guff.
Seasoned hacks are they?
Just comes across as arrogant.

"What about the scratches" you say Senan.
Well explain to me seasoned hack how someone could get scratches and leave zero forensics at the scene.
Zero.
No hair, no DNA, no blood, no fingerprints.
In a supposed frenzied attack.

You need to upgrade your baloney detector.

I told you he's never going to jail.

Gardai did a perfect job.

Oh we happened to lose a galvanised gate with blood all over it from the scene.

Many gardai incompetences.

This is a who donit forum.

Who did it then?

Treppen

I keep hearing that "oh the French assassin sorry is rubbish because a proper assassin would use a silencer" or whatever.

That's like saying "ok I'm paying you good money for this hit, make sure you make it look like an assassination ok?".

When you pick apart that info journo's sorry there is nothing of substance in it except a hunch.

Gussie Scrotch

Gussie Scrotch wrote: »

I am reminded, again and again, of the Colin Stagg case in London. There are so many parallels it is spooky.

a) The evidence against him consisted of of mistaken sightings of him ( times wrong especially)

b)questions about his personality and character - he was interested in Wicca etc,

c) some previous misbehaviour ( he had been done for indecent exposure, for sunbathing nude in a secluded spot on Wimbledon common )

d) a relentless campaign by the police, through the media, to paint him as the culprit.

e) Total lack of a link between him and the victim ( Rachel Nikel - who was also French!)

f) Complete lack of any concrete evidence to link him to the crime

g) Huge swathes of the public utterly, utterly convinced he was guilty ( I was too)

h) The parents of the victim believing totally the police story and saying, publicly, that his acquittal was a travesty of justice.

i) when they couldn't find any hard evidence against him the police resorted to unsafe and unethical methods to try to trap him.

j) Although, unlike Bailey he was charged, the judge threw the case out in short order, publicly castigating the police for their handling of the case. The police, however, made it absolutely plain, again through the media, that they still thought he was guilty and would not be pursuing the case further.

k) He was ostracised and demonised by the local population. His life was made a misery.......


Until, years later, proper methodical and forensic police work identified that he could not have been the killer and another man, in jail for a similar offence was matched through DNA analysis and convicted of the murder.

Colin Stagg was given a public apology and a huge chunk of compensation.


Bailey may be the killer, I don't believe he is, but I acknowledge the possibility.

But the evidence pointing his his direction is no stronger that that which implicated Stagg.

Thats enough for me.

Hes not going to jail so who cares.

Hes a bad article into the bargain, so forgive me if my heart does not bleed for him.

Woody79

Woody79 wrote: »

Senan Molony

<snip - text of article>

That's the guy who was upset when IB wouldn't hold his hand and introduce him to the gardai, IB gave him background and said "you're on your own now"

john123470

Weddings ahoy wrote: »

Sophie said she thought someone was using her house when she wasn't there, is it a stretch to think someone could also have been squatting in the Richardson's house behind her house at the time, and perhaps she saw them returning or leaving the property that night and went to confront them ?

This is definitely a runner. If folk are squatting those houses when the owners are away .. Sophie confronts and threatens to report them ...

I used think Schull was a nice refined idyll ..
Croquet, scones and tea in the afternoon ..

Scratch the underbelly and you get an episode from Fair City

odyssey06

Woody79 wrote: »

I told you he's never going to jail.
Gardai did a perfect job.
Oh we happened to lose a galvanised gate with blood all over it from the scene.
Many gardai incompetences.
This is a who donit forum.
Who did it then?

I hope you are right re: never going to jail.

Even with the garda incompetences, I think they would not have lost anything that they thought would pin it on Bailey.

So whodunit...
French hitman angle: I think a hitman is capable of staging a scene to make it look like a robbery \ assault 'gone wrong', or a 'frenzied' crime of passion. Their Plan A could be to utilise whatever is available on the scene or Plan B use the untraceable weapon they brought. But leaving a body out in the open where it could be discovered at any time seems a bit off to me.

It's not my theory, but I'm inclining towards whoever Marie Farrell is\was really protecting OR whoever was using the holiday home when Sophie wasn't there. This may be the same people.

The Black Oil

Folks, please stop quoting massive posts - it's hard to read on mobiles, thanks.

Loafing Oaf

odyssey06 wrote: »

But leaving a body out in the open where it could be discovered at any time seems a bit off to me.

To me this is virtually a slam dunk against the hired gun theory (or anyone thinking even semi-rationally really). The hitman's number one priority (even beyond getting the job done) is always to get in and out without incriminating themselves or their client. Even dragging the body behind a ditch could easily have given the killer a few days grace before the alarm was raised.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Tiny finger of land, maybe 200 houses. Half of them summer homes, unoccupied, leaves 100. Four-fifths of those remaining occupied by retirees and seniors, not enough strength to lift and wield a cavity block. So that’s 20 houses left. You’re looking for a well-built man in his prime, aged 25 to 40, living locally. How many of those are around here

When you know, you just know.

A hitman from France with adept skills in cavity block killing.

I get it, hes not going to jail for it, ever. But he did it.

Just like OJ.

Oh man, if you are convinced by that article you won't believe how exciting those famous five books are.
'.. but we were seasoned hacks, used to this parlour game'. I really hate when a reporter tries to be a novelist, blurring facts for his own craving to write fiction.
He even has some facts wrong, who ever said the gate was swung to finish her off, so did he genuinely believe that or just add it for dramatic value.
Senan comes across as a crass journo, trying to revive a flagging career on the back of the revival of this case.

john123470

odyssey06 wrote: »

I hope you are right re: never going to jail.

Even with the garda incompetences, I think they would not have lost anything that they thought would pin it on Bailey.

It's not my theory, but I'm inclining towards whoever Marie Farrell is\was really protecting OR whoever was using the holiday home when Sophie wasn't there. This may be the same people.

MF was having a fling with one of the Gardai. They were using one / both of the holiday homes for their trysts.

Sophie got in the way somehow

Case closed.

Book em, Danno .. starting with Inspector Clouseau-Colombo-Dwyer

Gussie Scrotch

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

To me this is virtually a slam dunk against the hired gun theory (or anyone thinking even semi-rationally really). The hitman's number one priority (even beyond getting the job done) is always to get in and out without incriminating themselves or their client. Even dragging the body behind a ditch could easily have given the killer a few days grace before the alarm was raised.

Yes, I can see a hitman trying to make it look like "non hit" killing.

But you're right....he would be acutely aware of the advantage a day or so would give him in making his escape so he would try to conceal her body in some way.

Wompa1

Moloney didn't notice the scratch or cut on his forehead but Jules did and it was mentioned in her statement. He didn't have it when they last saw each other around 1am and did have it when she saw him again around 9am. He said he was killing Turkeys. She corroborated that despite not seeing him do it because she didn't see him again until he brought her the coffee at which time he had the scar.

In the Netflix documentary, they had locals stating they saw her with scars on multiple occasions. The retelling of her poor daughter seeking help was heartbreaking. Jules has said, she couldn't see her daughters or grandkids because they didn't want Ian around. Jim's documentary made it seem like it was a once off drunken rage when he hit Jules. She suggested it herself, as people in abusive relationships often do.

Bailey is manipulative, violent and abusive. I'd love to hear what Jules' kids have to say considering they were in the house at the time too.

Gussie Scrotch

john123470 wrote: »

MF was having a fling with one of the Gardai. They were using one / both of the holiday homes for their trysts.

Sophie got in the way somehow

Case closed.

Book em, Danno .. starting with Inspector Clouseau-Colombo-Dwyer

I think Alfie role should be considered. He's the only one who was definitely there at the time of the death.

The actual site of the killing is interesting also - at the gate - the gate over which Sophie and her neighbours had been in dispute.


He had a possible motive and, i think, it is very strange that neither he nor Shirley saw or heard anything.

odyssey06

Wompa1 wrote: »

Moloney didn't notice the scratch or cut on his forehead but Jules did and it was mentioned in her statement. He didn't have it when they last saw each other around 1am and did have it when she saw him again around 9am. He said he was killing Turkeys. She corroborated that despite not seeing him do it because she didn't see him again until he brought her the coffee at which time he had the scar.

How did he get the scratches at the murder scene and leave no trace of forensics?
Even by the standards of 1996 forensics that's a slam dunk.

In the Netflix documentary, they had locals stating they saw her with scars on multiple occasions. The retelling of her poor daughter seeking help was heartbreaking. Jules has said, she couldn't see her daughters or grandkids because they didn't want Ian around. Jim's documentary made it seem like it was a once off drunken rage when he hit Jules. She suggested it herself, as people in abusive relationships often do. Bailey is manipulative, violent and abusive. I'd love to hear what Jules' kids have to say considering they were in the house at the time too.

It's a bit of a jump from that kind of abuse, in the emotions of close domestic contact... to walking for hours in December in the dark to someone you barely knew and kill them with a concrete block?

john123470

Gussie Scrotch wrote: »

I think Alfie role should be considered. He's the only one who was definitely there at the time of the death.

The actual site of the killing is interesting also - at the gate - the gate over which Sophie and her neighbours had been in dispute.


He had a possible motive and, i think, it is very strange that neither he nor Shirley saw or heard anything.

That is definitely an angle.
That gate was becoming a real source of friction

How did they go and lose a gate ? It's so Irish

It hurts thinking about this puzzle but on balance, it looks like there were a lot more players involved than the man in the long black coat ..

listermint

john123470 wrote: »

That is definitely an angle.
That gate was becoming a real source of friction

How did they go and lose a gate ? It's so Irish

It hurts thinking about this puzzle but on balance, it looks like there were a lot more players involved than the man iin the long black coat ..

If it was left at the back of a local station in cork it's probably hanging in some locals field or swiped by the local crafty fingers for quick sale.

MoonUnit75

john123470 wrote: »

That is definitely an angle.
That gate was becoming a real source of friction

How did they go and lose a gate ? It's so Irish

It hurts thinking about this puzzle but on balance, it looks like there were a lot more players involved than the man in the long black coat ..

I don’t get the thinking here.

Could it be the husband? Despite being divorced a couple of times he decided hiring a hitman and a possible conspiracy to murder charge was his best option on this occasion.

Could it be Alfie? They had a dispute about a gate being left open.

Could it be Bailey? Nah, he’s only been known to hospitalise a woman a few times after extremely violent and unpredictable outbursts, lived close to the victim and knew her to see, gave a false alibi and then a ridiculous reason for leaving in the middle of the night after a fill of pints, told several people he had done it, knew a concerning amount of detail very quickly and wrote some articles anonymously even though he was trying to resurrect his career, had scratches on his arms and one on his face which his partner said wasn’t there when he was going to bed, stopped to ‘admire the view’ on his way home from the pub on a hill from which you can see the murder scene and told his partner there appeared to be a light on in her neighbours house, suggested he might go over to Alfie, cancelled a couple of appointments the next morning before he should have known, appears to have been watching who the gardai were talking to and visiting them afterwards to ask what the gardai wanted to know about him, told journalists he had photos of the murder scene before he was supposed to have known about it, had a statement made that he had wanted photos developed while he watched and the person developing them claimed to have seen the body of a woman in the photos etc. etc.

Options 1 and 2 obviously are far more persuasive!

MoonUnit75

odyssey06 wrote: »

Wompa1 wrote: »

Moloney didn't notice the scratch or cut on his forehead but Jules did and it was mentioned in her statement. He didn't have it when they last saw each other around 1am and did have it when she saw him again around 9am. He said he was killing Turkeys. She corroborated that despite not seeing him do it because she didn't see him again until he brought her the coffee at which time he had the scar./

How did he get the scratches at the murder scene and leave no trace of forensics?
Even by the standards of 1996 forensics that's a slam dunk.



It's a bit of a jump from that kind of abuse, in the emotions of close domestic contact... to walking for hours in December in the dark to someone you barely knew and kill them with a concrete block?

I’m sure the walk to the house was supposed to have been far less, 30-40 minutes across the open country? He could have driven all or part of the way, he admitted to driving while drunk on several occasions and has been caught at least once.

john123470

listermint wrote: »

If it was left at the back of a local station in cork it's probably hanging in some locals field or swiped by the local crafty fingers for quick sale.

Might be .. but missing pages from evidence notes also .. indicate something more

A few things I don't understand.

Sophie "complained about drug use"
- was this referring to Alfie's being a pothouse and because of their rowing, she was trying to make some trouble for him ?

I mean what happened in Alfie's house should not have really bothered her.

Also, the bloodstained door handle. The murder took place at the gate. Did the killer/s have to return to Sophie's house to retrieve something ?

odyssey06

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

I’m sure the walk to the house was supposed to have been far less, 30-40 minutes across the open country? He could have driven all or part of the way, he admitted to driving while drunk on several occasions and has been caught at least once.

Not if he went by the less direct route where he would have allgedly been seen by Marie Farrell.
As for the direct route - 30-40 minutes across open country, is that in daylight and good conditions?
Or by moonlight in December with drink taken?

If he was that drunk and 'in passion', why would he drive some of the way?
Why not drive all the way?
And if he drove all the way, why was there no evidence of his car at the scene?

The whole story doesn't add up.