Murder at the Cottage | Sky

Ultimate Gowlbag

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't think anyone's said it was Alfie on here ?

Most have just said his comment that he is 90% sure he introduced IB and Sophie is a bit sketchy but understandable so,

at least one person was saying he should be looked into and wrote out a fantasy on what he might have done!

Bannasidhe

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't think anyone's said it was Alfie on here ?

Most have just said his comment that he is 90% sure he introduced IB and Sophie is a bit sketchy but understandable so,

Read back over the tread.
There have been quite a few people who suggested Alfie as a likely suspect.

Bannasidhe

Marcusm wrote: »

Their house is up for sale now. The ad I saw (commendably) made no mention of the murder.

The ad didn't - but multiple articles about the sale have mentioned murder in their headlines.

yourdeadwright

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Read back over the tread.
There have been quite a few people who suggested Alfie as a likely suspect.

Well that kind of obvious that h would be suspect to begin with as he was a neighbour and had a on going disagreement supposedly,

Iv said that could have lead him to say he is 90% sure he introduced her an IB even sub conspicuously , As surely he realised by simply living next door people would at least contemplate could it be him ,

odyssey06

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

I could imagine Sophie seeing or hearing someone on the lane, puts on her boots to confront them. They tell Sophie they should get together, have a drink and discuss some projects. Sophie tells them 'would you ever f*** off with yourself you incoherent drunk idiot' and turns to go back inside, gets a rock on the back of the head and staggers forwards, instinctively running down the hill and fending off blows from her attacker, stumbles and falls.

Perhaps but in your scenario there are lots of noises and a chance for Sophie to scream etc
That's where we came in.

Gussie Scrotch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Honestly. For the last time.

As someone who knew and worked with Alfie Lyons to accuse him is really stretching the bounds of credibility.

He was no longer a 'stoner'. He had been in the past - smoking only grass he grew himself, a thing which is now perfectly legal in many parts of the world, but by 1995 had completely quit as his lungs were fecked from it.

But here in this thread we have people who never met the man (if they had you would know how ridiculous it is to name him as a likely suspect) who claim a man in his mid/late 60s, with lungs so damaged he had to stop helping out as a casual baker as he could no longer knead loaves of bread without becoming breathless, was capable of lifting a concrete block multiple time and bringing it down with great force.

Additionally, he - according to the likely suspect scenario - was perfectly willing to leave a dead body where his adored partner would find it.

Away with this nonsense.

Alfie and Shirley were victims too. Their dream of a quiet retirement was destroyed, they were in no financial position to move having invested everything in that house. Both were literally OAPs.
Forever trapped as the neighbours of the murder house where sightseers' believed they had the right to trespass and peer through their windows, ask intrusive questions, and suggest nonsense theories.

Alfie is hardly in the grave and here he is being called a likely suspect of committing murder. Perhaps if people are going to throw theories out there they might do some fact checking first.

Firstly, no one has accused Alfie.

This thread is, effectively, about posing resolutions to the mystery of who -killed Sophie.

There is no evidence, as far as I can see, that implicates either him or Shirley.

However, there are facts that fit the theoretical scenario.

1) Alfie and Shirley are the only people who were definitely there.

2) It is believed that there were tensions between Alfie/Shirley and the victim.

3) Alfie and Shirley saw and heard nothing, despite their proximity.

So, theoretically, we have Motive, means and opportunity and as a possible scenario...its up there to be knocked down.


Let me make it clear...I'm not accusing Alfie or Shirley. I have no reason to believe that they did or would have any involvement. And you, obviously, knew the pair so I acknowledge the superior insight you bring to this.

What I would like is a comprehensive demolition of the theory. If you have more facts or can challenge the above, I welcome it.

Henry...

Bailey got into bother in ep5 when he was pissed ,about the alibi

Henry...

I didn't believe him by the end of , I think he did it

Sheridan didn't believe him either

TheW1zard

In the podcasts there are numerous sightings of IB howling at the moon and wandering around at nightime. Would tie into into what Marie Farrell says She saw on the bridge.
I am 50/50 on the whole thing.

EdHoven

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Read back over the tread.
There have been quite a few people who suggested Alfie as a likely suspect.

If you take IB out of the equation the obvious suspects who can be named (as they are dead) are Alfie and Daniel TduP.
As an outsider my understanding is Alfie and Sophie were in dispute about the gate. She wanted it closed, he wanted it open. Maybe because he was to decrepit to get in and out of the car and open and close a heavy gate. Maybe because there were comings and goings to his house. I don't know. In 2008 a very small parcel of land was taken from the TduP folio and transferred to AL. It was where the lane runs at the back of her house. There must have been some reason for that.
The husband seemed to have very little knowledge of his wife's travelling arrangements despite talking on the phone for an hour that night. He invented a flight she was to take to show his devotion by meeting her at Toulouse Airport.
My feeling is Drew Harris should reopen the case and not start with the foregone conclusion it was IB. Look at Sophie's movements. Her reason for being there.
Her house caretaker was French, despite presumably being married to a local. That between them they couldn't get the heating fixed without Sophie being there makes no sense. If the family want to say it was a mini-break okay but Daniel and her parents insist she went to "fix the heating".

yourdeadwright

TheW1zard wrote: »

In the podcasts there are numerous sightings of IB howling at the moon and wandering around at nightime. Would tie into into what Marie Farrell says She saw on the bridge.
I am 50/50 on the whole thing.

Like the local who was convinced he say him walking through the filed with the murder weapon a staff, Turns out it was a farmer with a plank of wood :D

MF said the man on the bridge was around 5ft 8 , Is is monster of a fella ,

An article here about Tomi Ungerer the man she met the afternoon before and hoped to do a project with. Fascinating character. Famous illustrator and writer of both children's books and erotica. Died in 2019.

It's truly amazing the amount of diverse characters living in that area in 1996.

[Warning: link illustrations may be slightly NSFW]

orangerhyme

quokula wrote: »

She already kept him in her house with 3 daughters after he beat her viciously. Whether or not he actually did it, the fact that he's a violent man capable of doing it has never been in doubt so I don't think you can count the fact that Jules stuck with him as meaning anything one way or another.

Big difference between a beating and murder though

Bannasidhe

Gussie Scrotch wrote: »

Firstly, no one has accused Alfie.

This thread is, effectively, about posing resolutions to the mystery of who -killed Sophie.

There is no evidence, as far as I can see, that implicates either him or Shirley.

However, there are facts that fit the theoretical scenario.

1) Alfie and Shirley are the only people who were definitely there.

2) It is believed that there were tensions between Alfie/Shirley and the victim.

3) Alfie and Shirley saw and heard nothing, despite their proximity.

So, theoretically, we have Motive, means and opportunity and as a possible scenario...its up there to be knocked down.


Let me make it clear...I'm not accusing Alfie or Shirley. I have no reason to believe that they did or would have any involvement. And you, obviously, knew the pair so I acknowledge the superior insight you bring to this.

What I would like is a comprehensive demolition of the theory. If you have more facts or can challenge the above, I welcome it.

You mean apart from the fact that Alfie was physically incapable of lifting a concrete block above chest height once never mind multiple times?
He had to quit his casual work in 1995. How do I know? I worked with him.

He did not have the means as he lacked the physical capacity.

As for being 90% sure he introduced Bailey to Sophie - firstly ask yourself why was Bailey being employed to do some gardening by a pensioner, known for being careful with his money and on a very low fixed income, in 1995? Because the pensioner was physically incapable of doing so. Any by gardening we are talking about food items - not a pretty cottage garden with pretty bluebells all in a row.
And no - there wasn't any grass. Another neighbour's goats had broken in and eaten all the cannabis plants some time previously. Earlier in this thread the suggestion was made that Alfie was dealing. He most certainly wasn't. He was old school Californian hippy type - he would share a tobaccoless spliff but not give it away or sell it.

Why 90%? Why not 100%? - because Sophie came and went at odd times. No-one local knew for certain when she would be there with the possible exception of her house keeper. So if Sophie was there when Bailey spent a few days weeding Alfie's garden the year previously Alfie may have introduced them.

Could Alfie say for sure? No. Can you remember who you introduced people to last year with 100% accuracy? Do you expect an old ex-stoner in his mid/late 60s to remember with accuracy?

Finally, in the late summer of 1996 I was at Shirley's retirement party and spent most of the time talking - or rather listening - to Ian Bailey. I didn't learn his name until after the murder, if I was told it at the time I wasn't interested enough to pay attention - plus I'm shocking with names.
Everyone who knew him having scattered and there was much amusement at me having been 'caught'. Alfie was 90% sure Bailey was gate crashing, which by all accounts was par for the course. But couldn't rule out having invited him.

As part of that lengthy waiting for Alfie to do the BBQ conversation another not local asked who lived in the neighbouring house - all you could see from Alfie's courtyard was some of the upper floor and the roof. I can remember clearly there was 5 of us standing by the BBQ and we all turned to look. Alfie said it was a French film producer who was a bit of a pain in the hole 'always complaining about something', a sentiment shared by the Scull restauranteurs in attendance, and as far as he knew she wasn't there.
Bailey asked if that was Sophie. Someone local asked if he knew her. He replied "just to see around". Alfie did not say "I introduced you to her last year". In fact, that was the end of any conversation about the neighbour as Bailey began a lengthy, and mostly knowledgeable but with a fair amount of b.s, discourse on the topic of Le Cinéma Français.

A not smoking Alfie was a cranky man, he was also physically not strong. Shirley had the patience of a saint generally - she needed it being an art teacher in one of the roughest schools in London's East End. She didn't like either Ian Bailey or Sophie Tuscan du Plantier - for different reasons.
Alfie adored Shirley and finally their dream of her moving to West Cork permanently where she could paint in peace was being fulfilled. They were as giddy as school girls about it.

The theory that Alfie was involved would require him to perform a physical activity he was incapable of, yet leave the body where Shirley would not only find it - he would have had to let her leave the house the following morning in the full knowledge what was awaiting her. All because there had been disagreements over the closing of a gate in the past.

Not even the circumstantial evidence holds up to scrutiny.

Gussie Scrotch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You mean apart from the fact that Alfie was physically incapable of lifting a concrete block above chest height once never mind multiple times?
He had to quit his casual work in 1995. How do I know? I worked with him.

He did not have the means as he lacked the physical capacity.

As for being 90% sure he introduced Bailey to Sophie - firstly ask yourself why was Bailey being employed to do some gardening by a pensioner, known for being careful with his money and on a very low fixed income, in 1995? Because the pensioner was physically incapable of doing so. Any by gardening we are talking about food items - not a pretty cottage garden with pretty bluebells all in a row.
And no - there wasn't any grass. Another neighbour's goats had broken in and eaten all the cannabis plants some time previously. Earlier in this thread the suggestion was made that Alfie was dealing. He most certainly wasn't. He was old school Californian hippy type - he would share a tobaccoless spliff but not give it away or sell it.

Why 90%? Why not 100%? - because Sophie came and went at odd times. No-one local knew for certain when she would be there with the possible exception of her house keeper. So if Sophie was there when Bailey spent a few days weeding Alfie's garden the year previously Alfie may have introduced them.

Could Alfie say for sure? No. Can you remember who you introduced people to last year with 100% accuracy? Do you expect an old ex-stoner in his mid/late 60s to remember with accuracy?

Finally, in the late summer of 1996 I was at Shirley's retirement party and spent most of the time talking - or rather listening - to Ian Bailey. I didn't learn his name until after the murder, if I was told it at the time I wasn't interested enough to pay attention - plus I'm shocking with names.
Everyone who knew him having scattered and there was much amusement at me having been 'caught'. Alfie was 90% sure Bailey was gate crashing, which by all accounts was par for the course. But couldn't rule out having invited him.

As part of that lengthy waiting for Alfie to do the BBQ conversation another not local asked who lived in the neighbouring house - all you could see from Alfie's courtyard was some of the upper floor and the roof. I can remember clearly there was 5 of us standing by the BBQ and we all turned to look. Alfie said it was a French film producer who was a bit of a pain in the hole 'always complaining about something', a sentiment shared by the Scull restauranteurs in attendance, and as far as he knew she wasn't there.
Bailey asked if that was Sophie. Someone local asked if he knew her. He replied "just to see around". Alfie did not say "I introduced you to her last year". In fact, that was the end of any conversation about the neighbour as Bailey began a lengthy, and mostly knowledgeable but with a fair amount of b.s, discourse on the topic of Le Cinéma Français.

A not smoking Alfie was a cranky man, he was also physically not strong. Shirley had the patience of a saint generally - she needed it being an art teacher in one of the roughest schools in London's East End. She didn't like either Ian Bailey or Sophie Tuscan du Plantier - for different reasons.
Alfie adored Shirley and finally their dream of her moving to West Cork permanently where she could paint in peace was being fulfilled. They were as giddy as school girls about it.

The theory that Alfie was involved would require him to perform a physical activity he was incapable of, yet leave the body where Shirley would not only find it - he would have had to let her leave the house the following morning in the full knowledge what was awaiting her. All because there had been disagreements over the closing of a gate in the past.

Not even the circumstantial evidence holds up to scrutiny.

Firstly, thank you for taking the trouble to reply so comprehensively. You have painted a very clear picture and having read it, I can understand your position and why you are irritated by the speculation.

I am minded to accept that the various scenarios posed, suggesting any involvement of Alfie or Shirley are very unlikely, given the background you have provided and given that, unlike most posters here, you were personally acquainted with the "players"

Can I ask you just one question? The main point that troubles me is why the couple neither heard nor saw anything. Can you think of any reason why that should be the case?

Sorry, just one more question....did you ever discuss the case with either ?

Thanks again.

tibruit

Gussie Scrotch wrote: »

Can I ask you just one question? The main point that troubles me is why the couple neither heard nor saw anything. Can you think of any reason why that should be the case?

Ffs....double glazing.

brendanwalsh

Henry... wrote: »

Bailey got into bother in ep5 when he was pissed ,about the alibi

I thought we were gonna have a Jinx moment.
Start muttering and was pissed and didn’t want to all about the case. Got nervous and downed a full glass of wine.

Very obvious he did it. Courted the attention and speculation. Confessed multiple times to people when drunk and then pretended it was black humour.

He should have been singing from the heavens he didn’t do it and to search fir the real killer but instead he was happy to remain the suspect and claim persecution and conspiracy

Other fantasy alternatives are strictly non plausible.

Loafing Oaf

Gussie Scrotch wrote: »

Can I ask you just one question? The main point that troubles me is why the couple neither heard nor saw anything. Can you think of any reason why that should be the case?

Gussie Scrotch

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

:D

plastic glass

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Like the local who was convinced he say him walking through the filed with the murder weapon a staff, Turns out it was a farmer with a plank of wood :D

MF said the man on the bridge was around 5ft 8 , Is is monster of a fella ,

Do you believe MF?

EdHoven

Okay, Alfie was too weak to do it. IB is an immensely strong giant. He was engorged with lust and could swing 20 kilo blocks like Lego.
So why didn't he pick up the body of 5ft, 7 stone victim and do unspeakable things to it back at the house?
Or carry it away and chuck her in a ditch.
Instead he left her where Alfie or Shirley were bound to find her next morning.

bb12

tibruit wrote: »

Ffs....double glazing.

the house that's for sale has a ber rating of g. doubt there's any double glazing anywhere in it or much insulation in the walls or roof for that matter. pity they didn't have a pet dog which might have alerted them to something going on outside.

tibruit

bb12 wrote: »

the house that's for sale has a ber rating of g. doubt there's any double glazing anywhere in it or much insulation in the walls or roof for that matter. pity they didn't have a pet dog which might have alerted them to something going on outside.

I wasn`t actually being serious.

EmmetSpiceland

They found Doc Martin boot prints at the scene, right? Was Bailey ever known to wear these? And what size?

Curious_Case

EdHoven wrote: »

Okay, Alfie was too weak to do it. IB is an immensely strong giant. He was engorged with lust and could swing 20 kilo blocks like Lego.
So why didn't he pick up the body of 5ft, 7 stone victim and do unspeakable things to it back at the house?
Or carry it away and chuck her in a ditch.
Instead he left her where Alfie or Shirley were bound to find her next morning.

Lifting a body and walking with it would increase the risk of forensic evidence either being picked up or left behind.
How visible was her body?, perhaps it was relatively hidden from passing cars?

thecretinhop

anyone hear classic fm lad was raging about ib guilt. he was on about ib buying bleach?

Bannasidhe

Gussie Scrotch wrote: »

Firstly, thank you for taking the trouble to reply so comprehensively. You have painted a very clear picture and having read it, I can understand your position and why you are irritated by the speculation.

I am minded to accept that the various scenarios posed, suggesting any involvement of Alfie or Shirley are very unlikely, given the background you have provided and given that, unlike most posters here, you were personally acquainted with the "players"

Can I ask you just one question? The main point that troubles me is why the couple neither heard nor saw anything. Can you think of any reason why that should be the case?

Sorry, just one more question....did you ever discuss the case with either ?

Thanks again.

Knowing both Alfie and Shirley I would put money on them enjoying a very nice bottle of wine or two the night before. I know for a fact that they had been gifted a few bottles of an especially sought after Australian Shiraz by the winemaker in late Nov as a gift for Shirley's retirement (1995 Rockford Basket Press Shiraz if anyone is interested). And why not? They were finally both retired and that would be their 1st Xmas officially living together in West Cork. That would account for them not hearing anything.
Plus even in winter the hedgerows limited what could be seen and heard. The view directly out from the courtyard was amazing, but the view of Sophie's house and the laneway was partial at best. The sound was also strange due to the lay of the land/noise reduction cause by trees etc. Things far away could sound close while things physically near might not be heard at all.
The seagulls in those parts also have might lungs on them. If they had been inshore there would have been screams from dawn.

Shirley was literally popping into the village to get a few last minute things for Xmas. They did love their food and Alfie was a chef's chef. That's why I was at the party - to be invited to an Alfie cooking occasion was worth putting up with blow-hole gobdaws like Ian Bailey.

I was at work in Cork city when the call came through that Shirley had found a body and it was their neighbour. I have to admit our concern was for Shirley first. She was beyond shocked. It was an indescribably horrific experience.

No - I never discussed it with them, though I know Shirley did say a few things about how she was struggling with nightmares to mutual friends. Alfie was angry that this violence had been visited upon them and looked into selling up quietly. That brought the ghouls out of the woodwork unfortunately. The reality also was they didn't have the finances to relocate and at their ages couldn't borrow.

So no - we spoke of food, wine, art. Never Sophie - whom I had never met.

I did meet Ian Bailey in UCC about 2001, we had coffee. He was still a gobdaw. At that point in his life he was sure he could fight his own legal battle and win.

bb12

tibruit wrote: »

I wasn`t actually being serious.

that's what IB said

Bannasidhe

tibruit wrote: »

Ffs....double glazing.

No double glazing. Most of the work then had been done by Alfie over a number of years with stuff he had salvaged. One of the original upcyclers.
They did, however, have heavy duty thick curtains even in the sunroom at the front.

Gussie Scrotch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Knowing both Alfie and Shirley I would put money on them enjoying a very nice bottle of wine or two the night before. I know for a fact that they had been gifted a few bottles of an especially sought after Australian Shiraz by the winemaker in late Nov as a gift for Shirley's retirement (1995 Rockford Basket Press Shiraz if anyone is interested). And why not? They were finally both retired and that would be their 1st Xmas officially living together in West Cork. That would account for them not hearing anything.
Plus even in winter the hedgerows limited what could be seen and heard. The view directly out from the courtyard was amazing, but the view of Sophie's house and the laneway was partial at best. The sound was also strange due to the lay of the land/noise reduction cause by trees etc. Things far away could sound close while things physically near might not be heard at all.
The seagulls in those parts also have might lungs on them. If they had been inshore there would have been screams from dawn.

Shirley was literally popping into the village to get a few last minute things for Xmas. They did love their food and Alfie was a chef's chef. That's why I was at the party - to be invited to an Alfie cooking occasion was worth putting up with blow-hole gobdaws like Ian Bailey.

I was at work in Cork city when the call came through that Shirley had found a body and it was their neighbour. I have to admit our concern was for Shirley first. She was beyond shocked. It was an indescribably horrific experience.

No - I never discussed it with them, though I know Shirley did say a few things about how she was struggling with nightmares to mutual friends. Alfie was angry that this violence had been visited upon them and looked into selling up quietly. That brought the ghouls out of the woodwork unfortunately. The reality also was they didn't have the finances to relocate and at their ages couldn't borrow.

So no - we spoke of food, wine, art. Never Sophie - whom I had never met.

I did meet Ian Bailey in UCC about 2001, we had coffee. He was still a gobdaw. At that point in his life he was sure he could fight his own legal battle and win.

Thanks again Bannasidhe.