Murder at the Cottage | Sky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117670127#Comment_117670127

Obviously taken and stored.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671009#Comment_117671009

At least three of them may have been Bailey.

marieholmfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117670421#Comment_117670421

You're quite right. Though it isn't a cottage.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671318#Comment_117671318

According to the Garda ombudsman report “an extensive list of significant documents including witness statements and 22 exhibits that had gone missing and could no longer be located by the Garda Síochána”.

That included five files, 139 witness statements and pages from the Garda job books for the case.

The report mentioned the missing exhibits and torn-out Jobs Book pages as being of serious concern but attributed them to “a lack of administration and management of the incident room (even when viewed through the lens of the time) as opposed to clear evidence of malpractice or corruption”.

silver2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671979#Comment_117671979

you're about 1/2km out on the location of Sophie's house, its almost at the very end of the narrow road.

3km as the crow flies from Ian Bailey's house and about 5km by road. And I can't see how Bailey's house could be visible unless you climbed to the top of the hill that is next to sophie's house. But impossible to see from anywhere around the house itself. Similarly seems only the family say that she was meeting a poet / writer and no-one else can corroborate this and somehow I doubt the truth of it

Anyone who knows the terrain down there (you can see it on google streetview too) will know that it would be very difficult to walk over the hills in a direct line on a fine summer's day let alone 3am in the morning in the midst of winter, even if there was good moonlight.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671441#Comment_117671441

I said I worked with Alfie and had met Shirley on a number of occasions including being at Shirley's retirement party in Aug '96. IB was present but no one was sure if he had been invited or gatecrashed. The Gardai contacted those they had been informed were at the party for statements - however, whoever informed them gave them the wrong names. Those who had been at the party only found out because one of the not at the party people called in to make a statement told the AGS they had the wrong brother, then told his at the party brother who in turn contacted AGS and gave a statement. As part of that statement he gave my name. Despite contacting Gardai several times as the person who spent hours talking to Bailey in Alfie's garden but they never got back to me.

My then in-laws were very close friends of both Alfie and Shirley and were due to travel to West Cork from Cork City that day. Alfie rang them in the morning to tell them what had happened - it would have been shortly before noon when I was told. I got the impression the phone call had just happened.

Not a go at you - but what you posted I wrote and what I actually wrote are very different versions which just demonstrates how information gets mangled in the retelling. This whole case against Bailey is a masterclass in mangled re-telling.

The whole mess around the attendance at Shirley's retirement being a prime example. It was a small gathering of mainly people involved in the restaurant business. Someone supplied the local guards with a list of name of those in attendance. An incorrect list. Gardai seek a statement from someone on the list. He tells them he knows nothing about it but his brother is friends of A & S so quite possibly was at this party. He tells his brother about this. Brother contacts AGS and gives a statement. AGS are very interested in whether IB made any reference to Sophie. They are told he has no idea as he wasn't talking to Bailey but that I was so they should ask me as I was talking to Bailey for hours. Tells me to expect a call. No call came. I contacted AGS several times. Call never came.

Meanwhile a member of AGS hears my own brother speaking French on the phone in Douglas Cork late Dec 96 and call him in to question him. He tells them he knows nothing at all about any of it, doesn't know the people involved in any way (meaning Bailey, Sophie, Alfie and Shirley) and could prove he wasn't even in the country at the time. But does say that by co-incidence afaik his sister was at a Shirley's retirement party. They ask for my name.

I have never been called to give a statement.

Deeec

Bannasidhe Im just curious what you would have told the Gardai if you had been called to give a statement. Do you feel the info you would have given is important?

Also Im not sure speaking to every guest who attended Shirleys retirement party months before the murder would have been the best use of Garda resources.

Treppen

IF the murderer wasn't IB and someone is trying to cover things up and frame someone. Then the best outcome has been achieved.

If Ian Bailey had been brought to trial then any type of obfuscation would be scuppered if Baily was found to be outright not guilty.

The fact that there hangs a suspicion over 1 person for nearly 25 years would suit any other assailant down to the ground, way better than any trial that may have had a good chance of falling through.

Although if the killer had known that Bailey would have been no. 1 suspect then they should/would have made a very good attempt to plant some evidence on him.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672989#Comment_117672989

I know where Sophie's house is on the map.

The line on the map represents the sight-line and starts at the high point on the road to her house and may have been visible from the studio or the prairie cottage.

That was the point of that line, not to suggest he walked as the crow flies.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/51.529839,-9.676447/51.5386329,-9.6340414/@51.5325148,-9.6684448,2963m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2

silver2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673219#Comment_117673219

Its others and some of the gutter press that suggested he walked over the terrain and used the "moonlight" as a reason that he could and that a fit person could do it in less than an hour.

I doubt that an Olympic walker could do it in an hour and a half on a fine day, let alone someone witha few drinks at 2am in the middle of winter :D

I know that local say that you simply cannot see between the two houses. The media are feed so much mis-information by the gardai and the du plantier family, that they really should do checks on much of the rubbish they print

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673182#Comment_117673182

Bannasidhe is the only poster here who has added to the sum of my knowledge about the murder (e.g. by ruling out Alfie Lyons). The Gardai should have been intensely interested in her account of this retirement party because a key weakness in their case against IB is that he claims he did not know Sophie personally. A witness says Alfie Lyons introduced IB to her one summer when IB was working there but IB denies this. If IB had talked to Bannasidhe about Sophie it could have corroborated this vital piece of evidence. Instead, Bannasidhe says IB did not mention Sophie during their very lengthy conversation although Sophie's house was right in front of them. That tends to show he didn't know Sophie. If IB had a story to tell about his acquaintence with the glamorous French lady next door, would a compulsive baggart like IB pass up the opportunity to impress Bannasidhe?

A good detective is always interested in evidence that runs counter to their theory but not, it seems, the Gardai on this case. How long would it take them to contact each person at the party and ask one question - did IB mention Sophie that night? If anyone says yes, they may have hit gold. If not, they should go back to their drawing board.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672347#Comment_117672347

or not. Unless identified, they could have been absolutely anybody.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673379#Comment_117673379

Didn't the French investigators do it in 45 mins or so?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673182#Comment_117673182

Well, it was the AGS who felt speaking to people who witnessed IB being physically near Sophie's house in the months prior to her murder was a good use of resources. There appears to have been a question over whether IB ever met Sophie, apparently, Alfie wasn't 100% sure if he had introduced them in '95 when IB was doing some gardening work for him. Which would be fairly typical of Alfie. He also couldn't remember if he had invited Bailey, whom Shirley obviously disliked.

The AGS line of questioning of those in attendance (the few they spoke to...) was whether or not IB indicated he a) knew Sophie, b)knew she lived there, c) made any reference to her at all. Everyone told them I was the one who was talking to him all afternoon so I would be the one to ask.

I should point out I never met Sophie and didn't actually know who the self-opiniated tall bearded man blow-holing all day was. I kinda got trapped with him as everyone else was avoiding him. Many locals in attendance thanking me for occupying him. He was that person we have all encountered at a party. I was just enjoying bursting his self-important bubble. Only afterwards did I find out who he was.

My answer to the was Sophie mentioned question would have been : The roof and some the upper floor was visible from Alfie's yard. I was standing near the BBQ with IB, Alfie was cooking. Another guest (not a local) came over and by way of making conversation asked who lived in that fine house. Alfie said it was a pain in the hole French film producer who was rarely there, and as far as he knew wasn't there now. IB asked if that was where Sophie lived. He was asked by a local if he knew her (I should point out it was a small area, and all focus was on the BBQ as we were starving, and Alfie was a bit zen when it came to producing cooked food so it was easy to overhear conversations).

IB replied only to see around. There then followed a brief conversation where Alfie expounded on the ways Sophie was a pain in the hole, others joined in with what a waste it was that a grand house like that was empty most of the time, a bitch fest started about people coming from the Continent with cars full of food and not spending a penny locally - this was a general conversation and apparently the Germans were the worst offenders, and then IB began a monologue on French film making. Which was pretty much an example of his blow-holing.

So a) Only to see b) Seemed to find out then c)yes, but didn't seem interested in talking about her at all.

Up to the AGS/DPP if they felt that was relevant but it doesn't seem to fit the narrative the AGS were later pushing.

briany

The fact that the French legal system and Irish legal system are so at odds with each other, at least in cases such as these, has been a generator of some considerable tension throughout the whole saga. Listening to the West Cork podcast, they brought up the case of Dieter Krombach who was accused of killing his (I presume French) stepdaughter in Germany, and having the subsequent case in Germany dropped against him as the death was ruled accidental, but was tried and convicted in absentia in France. He was then assaulted and kidnapped by the girl's father, brought back to France and dropped outside a courthouse, taken into custody and then put in jail. Ian Bailey now says that he has a paranoia in the background that the same thing could be tried upon him one day.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673409#Comment_117673409

IB genuinely did not seem interested in discussing Sophie at all, in fact no one did. Alfie had his wee rant about her small scale constant irritations and complaints, and Shirley, while agreeing with him, told him to sushhh and get on with cooking. Alfie was generally a cranky man.

IB was far more interested in painting himself as an expert in French cinema (and food/art/rugby/history....). A braggard. Someone did ask what films Sophie had been involved in and no one had a clue. Including Mr Expert.

My impression of him was that if he was familiar with her he would have been boasting. There were other people there who did know her from her visits to the town - restaurateurs mainly. But no-one seemed to know her well. Or particularly like her, I got the impression she could be difficult. She was apparently "not as bad as the Germans, at least she bought stuff locally". The truth is no one there was interested in talking about the neighbour beyond the basic who lives in that house casual party conversation.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673578#Comment_117673578

This is very impressive evidence and I’m not surprised the Gardai weren’t interested. If IB had any relationship with Sophie, he could not have resisted sharing it when her name was being bandied about at this party. Even more telling - he bloviated about French film without mentioning her husband’s role as the foremost French film producer of that era. In fact, this is convincing evidence that IB had no relationship with Sophie just four months before her murder.

Some might wonder if Bannasidhe’s memory is reliable. Twenty five years is a very long time but I’m sure she is telling us now what she would have told the Gardai if they had bothered to ask her immediately after the murder. It is also a good example of evidence that appears very tenuous but is actually very germane. If IB did not have any relationship with Sophie, why would he trek over to her house that fateful morning?

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673578#Comment_117673578

Do you think it possible that Alfie might have been supplier of cannabis to Bailey? The Gardaí seem to think that "garlic" was a code word for cannabis. I seem to remember that Bailey was trying to acquire some "garlic" the day after the murder. It would be a another reason why Bailey might have went over there the night of the murder (apart from a possible party).

TheW1zard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671785#Comment_117671785

Caroline Leftwick, James Camier and Geraldine Camier

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673379#Comment_117673379

The houses can't be seen from each other,

but activity on the road to Sophie's house might have been visible,

especially when you take into account police traffic from Bantry along the R591 would be passing pass within 300 mtrs of the studio

or 450 mtrs of the prairie cottage.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673851#Comment_117673851

I wrote it down in late '96 to keep it fresh in my memory in anticipation of giving a statement. I dug it out again when the French started their investigation and tbh half expected a call. I am now a historian by profession so used to keeping written records, and remembering what they say in good detail. A vital skill in lecturing, nothing more boring then a lecturer who has to keep referring to their notes.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673911#Comment_117673911

Alfie never made a secret of his enjoyment of a relaxing spliff in the comfort of his own home. He didn't supply to anyone. Selling it would have been anathema to him. He might, IF he liked you, give you seeds so you could DIY.

However, by at least '95 Alfie was moaning he couldn't smoke anymore and had to get rid of his beloved Californian sensimilla plants. Apparently he had gotten the seeds off Bob Mitchum when he was over filming Ryan's Daughter. He was adamant he was going to destroy them.

At the party there was much hilarity when it emerged that some goats had gotten in and ate all the plants while Alfie was visiting his adult kids in the States. Alfie was joking he had considered asking for the milk to make a very special West Cork cheese, but had decided the plants had met a fitting end.

West Cork was crawling with both grass and hash. IB certainly wouldn't have had to get it off a cranky man with a rep for not sharing.

What possible party?

Alfie and Shirley were in their mid/late 60s and I can tell you, IB would have left with a flea in his ear if he had turned up uninvited on a Dec night to Alfie's gaff looking to score a spliff - even if the goats hadn't eaten it all. Which he knew they had.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673924#Comment_117673924

Here's what the DPP had to say about the Camier statements (bolding by me):

The evidence of James Camier and his wife is highly suspect. Their statements were taken some two years after the murder.

On 1 October 1998 Garda Kevin Kelleher having been contacted by this Office stated that Geraldine Camier had informed him that she could not recall her husband having a conversation with Jules Thomas on the morning of 23 December 1996.

However, on 7 January 1999 a copy statement from Geraldine Camier was received in this Office wherein she states she can now recall Jules Thomas telling her husband about the murder and she thinks the conversation took place on Monday 23 December 1996.

This statement is in direct contradiction to the information that she had previously conveyed to Garda Kelleher but is in support of evidential arguments advanced by the Gardaí.

On 11 January 1999 at the request of this Office Garda Kelleher made a statement in which he confirms that Geraldine Camier could not recollect the events recorded in the statement made by her husband.

James Camier in his first statement taken on 21 September 1998 states that between 11 am and 11:30 am on 23 December 1996 (date of the murder) Jules Thomas told him that a French woman had been murdered in the locality. He states that he was shocked by the news.

On 1 October 1998 Garda Kelleher told this Office that James Camier did not mention the alleged conversation with Jules Thomas to any other person that morning. It was indicated that such reticence was bizarre, particularly as Camier was working with his wife at the vegetable stall and serving the public, many of whom he must have known.

Garda Kelleher agreed that the behaviour was at the very least strange. Subsequently, on 17 October 1998 James Camier made a further statement in which he states that when his stall became quiet on 23 December 1996 he discussed the murder with his wife. This contradicts the information which he had previously given to Garda Kelleher.

And here's what they say about the Leftwick statement (bolding by me):

Caroline Leftwick’s statement was taken nearly five months after the murder. One wonders how she could recall precise times after such a lapse of time. In any event the times she mentions do not make sense.

Leftwick states that between 11.30 a.m. and 12.30 p.m. on 23 December 1996 Ian rang her and told her that there had been a murder at Toormore. He was excited. She states that he said it was a French woman and he was going to cover the story. He then said that he would not be coming over to collect the garlic. D/Gda. W.H. Leahy took the statement.

This statement is remarkable in that Bailey is alleged to have been aware of the murder before 12.30 p.m., was excited about its investigation and yet did nothing whatsoever to further its coverage until he received an unexpected phone call from Eddie Cassidy at 13.40 hours asking him to go to the scene in Toormore.

It is far more likely that Bailey made the call to Caroline Leftwick after he had received the call from Eddie Cassidy at 13.40 hours. The Gardaí were at the scene at 10.38 a.m. and Bailey was not seen there until about 2.20 p.m.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674177#Comment_117674177

The possible party.....I think Jules Thomas signed a statement which she later denied making, that on the the night of the murder she and Bailey stopped at a viewing point on their way home and looked across at Alfies house. Bailey wondered aloud if there was a party.

MoonUnit75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674639#Comment_117674639

This is one of the main problems with the DPP report. When another witness can, even tangentially, corroborate any statement of Ian's, its taken as read. However, the DPP failed to triangulate the four witness statements on JT's movements that morning:

James Camier: Says he spoke to JT at his stall while she bought vegetables.

Fenella Thomas: Says JT and IB left the house that morning for around two hours and that JT came back with vegetables.

Bill Fuller: Said he saw JT driving down the road from Sophie's to Kealfadda Bridge that morning (consistent with driving to Goleen where veg stall was).

Jules Thomas: Garda statement made after arrest, read out in court: "I drove past the scene at about 11am, and on to the causeway". JT denies she made this statement but GSOC found no evidence that any statements were tampered with or added to later.

We also have the Ungerer(?) statement that JT told her Sophie's body was 'an awful sight' and the photographer who says IB came to him for film to be developed privately and that he saw a womans body in the photographs, with the person who took the photographs' shoes showing beside it.

They can't all be lying??

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674639#Comment_117674639

The DPP makes a big mistake undermining the Camiers making their statement two years after the murder. Firstly, their encounter with Jules Thomas became memorable as soon as the word was out that Bailey was a suspect, which was in the days following the murder. Secondly, they may not have understood the significance of the timeline of their meeting with JT for a long time afterwards.

Also, I think the DPP erred in questioning the Leftwick testimony. Bailey couldn`t really turn up at the scene until he had an official reason (provided by Cassidy) to be there. Otherwise he was drawing attention to himself. Furthermore, on his was way to the scene he met Shirley Foster on the road and she thought it was weird that he didn`t ask her any questions about what was going on. The Garda at the scene also said the same thing. Bailey didn`t quiz him either.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674995#Comment_117674995

The two year delay in the Camier statement is inexplicable when the whole of West Cork was terrified by stories (assiduously spread by the Gardai) that IB was a woman killer who was bound to strike again. Not only are we asked to believe that the Camiers sat stumm for two years about what they were told by JT regarding IB reporting on the murder, but Geraldine Camier said she could not remember this conversation until the DPP Office questioned the Gardai about her and - hey presto! - she had a sudden bout of recollection.

It’s true that the DPP treated the witnesses against IB very differently to those who were helpful to him. That’s because, as the DPP report makes clear, the Garda investigation turned into a campaign against IB and they used every ruse to concoct a case against him. If Bannasidhe had said IB knew Sophie in August 1996, not only would she have been asked to give a statement, she would have received Rolls-Royce treatment from the Gardai. But the Gardai never took a statement from her because it would have to go in the file to the DPP and ruin their case - what motive did IB have if he didn’t have any relationship with Sophie?

Well-meaning people with vague recollections, and some very dodgy characters with no real evidence, came forward to bolster the Garda case against IB. If you thought he was about to strike again at any moment, wouldn’t you rack your brains to put him behind bars? . Many people resisted Garda pressure to give evidence against IB e.g. Alfie Lyons who could have corroborated the story about introducing IB to Sophie.

The recent documentaries add nothing to our understanding of the case. The Netflix documentary was unfair because it presented various allegations without testing them. The Audible podcast is far better, but in the end, it is impossible to convict or acquit anyone because the investigation was botched from start to finish.

TheW1zard

Lots of circumstatial evidence against him that's one thing we can all agree on

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674995#Comment_117674995

"Bailey couldn`t really turn up at the scene until he had an official reason (provided by Cassidy) to be there. Otherwise he was drawing attention to himself."

So he was smart enough not to show up at the scene before the murder was public knowledge but he wasn't smart enough to keep his mouth shut for a few hours?????

Bannasidhe

A thought occurred to me tonight that IB may have been the one who gave AGS the incorrect list of guests at the August party.

25 years later I realised that when we arrived (late) there were introductions all round, and as most people there were involved in the restaurant trade we knew each other by reputation.

Bailey arrived a while later, which was why I didn't know his name. Presumably he didn't know mine either. He would have known the locals but not the city crowd.

For reasons I won't go into to protect people's identity naming the wrong brother as being there also makes sense.

Pure conjecture on my part.