Why is safe electric necesssary ?

Bruthal.

maxamillius wrote: »

Apologies yes I stand corrected on that, I suppose it goes for anyone doing minor works. Not much difference in All reality changing a socket and changing an MCB (domestic single phase), both require correct terminations and safe isolation before working on,so i don’t really see why “minor” works can be undertaken by anyone.

The difference with working on the DB is, by restricting it, you ensure only RECs can do most installation work. Its a sort of border which only RECs can cross legally. It is no safer for a REC to work on one than a non rec qualified person.

Most working on them are probably not RECs themselves, but their employees.

As others said, it is great for now avoiding all things electrical in houses when asked.

I think it's safer install a new radial than running spurs.

2011

aido79 wrote: »

Sorry I phrased that wrong. So in terms of minor works is an unregistered electrician allowed to connect anything to a spur as long as they're not touching the board?

Essentially yes and not just an unregistered electrician, anyone at all can and it can be any number of points too. See link.

aido79

2011 wrote: »

Essentially yes and not just an unregistered electrician, anyone at all can and it can be any number of points too. See link.

Thanks for that. It's a bit of an eye opener and doesn't make a lot of sense why anyone can connect whatever they want to a spur but a qualified electrician can still only do minor works. My biggest problem with it would be the fact that they are under no obligation to test their wiring.

alan4cult

I think minor works needs a cleanup. A spur can covers a lot of ground and like for like replacement covers practically every light switch, ceiling light and socket.

Junglejoe

alan4cult wrote: »

I think minor works needs a cleanup. A spur can covers a lot of ground and like for like replacement covers practically every light switch, ceiling light and socket.

The spur always seeme an issue alright because of the amount of wiring and equipment that can be connected load side

And of course adding fixed wiring without testing(extra socket)

How much work is being driven into the black market now with increasing regulation ?

Black Market?!¿

Right to Repair!



I support darwinism more than the HSA.

Besides, it'll never work what's the difference between a spur and a plugboard other than a fuse and the terminations being on a different side of a socket plate?

You can make anything compliant with a PAT test sticker and a 13A plug.

Junglejoe

The wiring on the load side of a spur can be extensive

Junglejoe

That type of setup is probably outside the scope of the wiring rules

K.Flyer

aido79 wrote: »

[...]
I have no idea about the plumber installing wiring for a heating system but maybe someone else can provide information on whether or not they have to supply a certificate for the work they do.

The straight answer is no.

We are only allowed to go back as far as the fused spur. If there is no spur or it needs moving then legally we are not allowed to do that work.
My understanding is that we are expected to be able to competently understand and carry out heating control system wiring if we work on heating systems. I remember having to demonstrate that on some exam years ago, but I don't remember it coming up in my last 5 year review.
I know a lot of plumbers are not comfortable with wiring and won't touch it and leave it to electricians, but conversely I knew a few electricians who did not fully understand gas boiler heating controls either and phoned me for advice.
So, yes RGIs are allowed do it, but some do and some don't, but we don't certify it, why I don't know, but it is covered under our insurance.

aido79

K.Flyer wrote: »

The straight answer is no.

We are only allowed to go back as far as the fused spur. If there is no spur or it needs moving then legally we are not allowed to do that work.
My understanding is that we are expected to be able to competently understand and carry out heating control system wiring if we work on heating systems. I remember having to demonstrate that on some exam years ago, but I don't remember it coming up in my last 5 year review.
I know a lot of plumbers are not comfortable with wiring and won't touch it and leave it to electricians, but conversely I knew a few electricians who did not fully understand gas boiler heating controls either and phoned me for advice.
So, yes RGIs are allowed do it, but some do and some don't, but we don't certify it, why I don't know, but it is covered under our insurance.

Do plumbers get any training on electrical connections in fas/solas?
To me it would make sense for a plumber to have to do a bridging course of some sort before they could do any electrical work.

2011

aido79 wrote: »

Do plumbers get any training on electrical connections in fas/solas?
To me it would make sense for a plumber to have to do a bridging course of some sort before they could do any electrical work.

Minor electrical works are not restricted to plumbers.

2011

K.Flyer wrote: »

The straight answer is no.

We are only allowed to go back as far as the fused spur. If there is no spur or it needs moving then legally we are not allowed to do that work.
My understanding is that we are expected to be able to competently understand and carry out heating control system wiring if we work on heating systems. I remember having to demonstrate that on some exam years ago, but I don't remember it coming up in my last 5 year review.
I know a lot of plumbers are not comfortable with wiring and won't touch it and leave it to electricians, but conversely I knew a few electricians who did not fully understand gas boiler heating controls either and phoned me for advice.
So, yes RGIs are allowed do it, but some do and some don't, but we don't certify it, why I don't know, but it is covered under our insurance.

This is all correct.

However in addition to being able to install any number of items (for heating controls or whatever) downstream of a spur outlet it is permitted to install an additional an additional point on an existing circuit. This could be an additional socket or light. So in theory a DIY enthusiast could install a additional socket on a given circuit and then at a later date another DIYer could install another point on the same circuit.

I find that in general plumbers tend to know what they are doing, but painters not so much.

knipex

maxamillius wrote: »

Two years (year 3 and 4) wiring motor control panels in FAS is too much in my opinion. Why focus on it when the electrical industry is so diverse? Yes domestic is only a small part, but testing and verification spans the entire industry so why put so much effort into motor control, which to be fair is only another small part.

ESB linesmen are a completely different kettle of fish and again would have no particular use for motor control.

Anyway my point is there should be more of a focus on testing and verification, there may be now but there wasn’t when I served my time.

When I was serving my time (nor now for that matter) I couldn't care less about domestic installations. The testing of same is completely irrelevant to anything I did during my apprenticeship or since. 95% of what I touch is less that 24v most of that less that 12v.

My apprenticeship is devalued enough without dumbing it down more and narrowing down to domestic installation and testing.

Back in the day I got into trouble with unions for suggesting a core training with specialist modules.

If you wanted to train and work purely on domestic installation then fine. You do the core modules, and then the necessary modules focused on that. Wouldn't take 4 years and you get excellent sparks at wiring houses.

Want to do something different then pick different modules and if later in your career you wanted you could do additional modules, 3 phase, voltage correction, DC Systems, Battery and off grid systems, motor control, PLC and Scada systems, Panel building, linesmen, high voltage, Intruder Alarm, structured cabling, Fire alarms, Atex, etc etc etc.

Currently we all do the same apprenticeship, get the same qualification and yet have very different jobs and careers.

The new apprenticeship was initially aimed to give a much broader training, at the time the FAS instructors unions refused to do the phase 2 theory so outside lecturers were brought in to do it. I know that of the first cohort of electrical apprentices to go through the new apprenticeship in Limerick over 90% failed phase 2 and had to repeat one or multiple modules. Largely, but not soley because of how apprentices were chosen. It was the first time apprentices were not chosen by FAS and hadn't gone through a central application process with aptitude testing and multiple round interviews.

Very quickly the unions, and industry pressure due to the building boom gutted what had the making of a truly world class training program.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with anyone who wants to wire houses, its a skilled role, pays well but its only one branch of the trade.

Many employers in my industry used to hire apprentices and put them through FAS but they stopped as the training now has little relevance. Now they hire graduates and people like me spend a few years bringing them up to speed. The IT's (or RTC's back in the day) used to be great for filling roles like these, good mix of practical and theory that but now they all want to be universities It kills me to see the career path turned into another "degree required" role that drives kids into the University treadmill..

2011

Interesting post.

Personally I think that the 4 year apprenticeship model is highly valued and watering it down in anyway to would reduce its worth, attract people less suited and would seriously reduce the earning potential. This would lead to a general drop in standards. It would be far better to offer electricians more opportunities to upskill.

The problem I see is that very few school leavers are considering apprenticeships of any type. This is having a massive impact as the housing programme ramps up as does the more lucrative industrial sector.

maxamillius

knipex wrote: »

When I was serving my time (nor now for that matter) I couldn't care less about domestic installations. The testing of same is completely irrelevant to anything I did during my apprenticeship or since. 95% of what I touch is less that 24v most of that less that 12v.

My apprenticeship is devalued enough without dumbing it down more and narrowing down to domestic installation and testing.

Back in the day I got into trouble with unions for suggesting a core training with specialist modules.

If you wanted to train and work purely on domestic installation then fine. You do the core modules, and then the necessary modules focused on that. Wouldn't take 4 years and you get excellent sparks at wiring houses.

Want to do something different then pick different modules and if later in your career you wanted you could do additional modules, 3 phase, voltage correction, DC Systems, Battery and off grid systems, motor control, PLC and Scada systems, Panel building, linesmen, high voltage, Intruder Alarm, structured cabling, Fire alarms, Atex, etc etc etc.

Currently we all do the same apprenticeship, get the same qualification and yet have very different jobs and careers.

The new apprenticeship was initially aimed to give a much broader training, at the time the FAS instructors unions refused to do the phase 2 theory so outside lecturers were brought in to do it. I know that of the first cohort of electrical apprentices to go through the new apprenticeship in Limerick over 90% failed phase 2 and had to repeat one or multiple modules. Largely, but not soley because of how apprentices were chosen. It was the first time apprentices were not chosen by FAS and hadn't gone through a central application process with aptitude testing and multiple round interviews.

Very quickly the unions, and industry pressure due to the building boom gutted what had the making of a truly world class training program.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with anyone who wants to wire houses, its a skilled role, pays well but its only one branch of the trade.

Many employers in my industry used to hire apprentices and put them through FAS but they stopped as the training now has little relevance. Now they hire graduates and people like me spend a few years bringing them up to speed. The IT's (or RTC's back in the day) used to be great for filling roles like these, good mix of practical and theory that but now they all want to be universities It kills me to see the career path turned into another "degree required" role that drives kids into the University treadmill..

That’s a fair point, a module based apprenticeship where you get to choose your speciality might be the way forward.

Chavez.

The standards of apprentice and training was never great imo

Maybe it's improved but you had had lads qualifying who weren't safe to let near a job

2011

maxamillius wrote: »

That’s a fair point, a module based apprenticeship where you get to choose your speciality might be the way forward.

Maybe but I don’t see this happening, we simply don’t have sufficient numbers of apprentices. Most kids are conditioned to believe that they must obtain a degree to get anywhere in life. This is lead to an abundance of arts degree graduates who seem only to be able to get work if they obtain some other qualification.

In reality the best electricians tend to learn most skills on the job, not by formal training.

knipex

2011 wrote:

Maybe but I don’t see this happening, we simply don’t have sufficient numbers of apprentices. Most kids are conditioned to believe that they must obtain a degree to get anywhere in life. This is lead to an abundance of arts degree graduates who seem only to be able to get work if they obtain some other qualification.

2011 wrote:

In reality the best electricians tend to learn most skills on the job, not by formal training.

And by narrowing the apprenticeship to "domestic installation" are you are only driving that on.

There was an attempt to split the apprenticeship before the new system was introduced but the unions killed the idea..

If all you want is to qualify guys to wire and test houses then fine create a trade of domestic electrican. No offence to anyone but it doesn't take 4 years to train do that.

But there is much much more to the trade than that. As you narrow the training, make it less relevant you devalue the qualification to those who want to explore other areas and drive them down the university route.

I know a number of companies who used to take on electrical apprentices and trained them in machine building, maintenance and repair, panel building, automation, robotics, structured cabling etc..

I contacted them last year when the son of a friend wanted to get into the trade. Like ourselves all bar 1 now hire graduates and train them. The feedback is the apprenticeship is less relevant now, they have no influence or power to direct the training. It's dominated by construction and unions.

Sending guys on phase 2, 4 and 6 was a waste of time, the learnt nothing useful and it was generating work to ensure that got the exposure needed to sign off their on the job phase logbooks.

Its depressing.

knipex

Chavez. wrote:

The standards of apprentice and training was never great imo

That was more to do with the empowers and how they trained / utilised apprentices. Many spent 4 years bending conduit or first fixing semi-d's. I remember interviewing one newly qualified guy around 2006 / 2007 who had never in his entire apprenticeship outside of his block releases terminated a cable. I don't mean a SWA or pyro, I'm talking copper cable..

He spent his entire 4 years chasing walls, running cables or on tray, trunking and conduit..

Yet the employer signed off each and every one of this on the job training skills.

knipex

2011 wrote:

In reality the best electricians tend to learn most skills on the job, not by formal training.

100%. But the purpose of the apprenticeship is to give a good foundation training on the craft of electrical.

Not domestic installation.. which is what it is becoming. (If not what ot has become allready)

2011

knipex wrote: »

And by narrowing the apprenticeship to "domestic installation" are you are only driving that on.

I see nothing to suggest that the electrical apprenticeship has ever focused on domestic. It is a long time since I was an apprentice but when I served my time training in college I received a lot of training that applied only to industrial installations. This included 3 phase motor control, power factor correction, some basic stuff on transformers and some other 3 phase theory.

2011

knipex wrote: »

100%. But the purpose of the apprenticeship is to give a good foundation training on the craft of electrical.

Not domestic installation.. which is what it is becoming. (If not what ot has become allready)

As above, maybe things are different now, why do you think the focus is on domestic installations?

During the 4 years an industrial apprentice will spend most of their time on site learning their trade in an industrial environment. That is where most of the learning will occur. This is what makes the apprenticeship relevant to the environment that the electrician will end up working in.

Either way I can’t see what is to be gained by reducing the duration of an apprenticeship even if it is just applied to “domestic electricians”. I have witnessed posters on this forum arguing that industrial electricians do far less technical work as they primarily install metal cable containment:) The truth is that it depends on the company, the project and the individual. My view is that industrial work is where the real technical work is at.

Chavez.

One thing I think we can all agree the electrical industry is vast

The Mulk

2011 wrote: »

As above, maybe things are different now, why do you think the focus is on domestic installations?

During the 4 years an industrial apprentice will spend most of their time on site learning their trade in an industrial environment. That is where most of the learning will occur. This is what makes the apprenticeship relevant to the environment that the electrician will end up working in.

Either way I can’t see what is to be gained by reducing the duration of an apprenticeship even if it is just applied to “domestic electricians”. I have witnessed posters on this forum arguing that industrial electricians do far less technical work as they primarily install metal cable containment:) The truth is that it depends on the company, the project and the individual. My view is that industrial work is where the real technical work is at.

I'd agree 100% with you. The domestic element is completed to an extent within the first three months of Phase 2.
It then focuses on industrial for the remainder of Phase 2.
The more technical aspects come as they attend an institute/RTC.
There are a lot of factors determining how well an apprentice is trained and the variety of work and the quality of the people they work with is a big part of it.
Ireland has a good reputation across Europe and further afield for electrical tradespeople. Other places do it different to us and it isn't always better.

2011

The Mulk wrote: »

I'd agree 100% with you. The domestic element is completed to an extent within the first three months of Phase 2.
It then focuses on industrial for the remainder of Phase 2.
The more technical aspects come as they attend an institute/RTC.
There are a lot of factors determining how well an apprentice is trained and the variety of work and the quality of the people they work with is a big part of it.

I will take your word for it as I am so far out of the loop now (another way of saying that I am getting old). What you are saying aligns with what I expected.

I think that we can all agree that an electrical apprenticeship is a very general qualification, it is up to the individual where they take this and what they get out of it. Some drift through it and manage to learn very little, others become highly skilled in a number of areas but everyone comes out of it with so much more to learn.

Ireland has a good reputation across Europe and further afield for electrical tradespeople. Other places do it different to us and it isn't always better.

Yes, that is why I think that any reduction in the four year apprenticeship system that we have in place would be a retrograde step.