Ballymurphy massacre

TheValeyard

Mad to think it took 50 years just to get to this point

Marco23d

Lest we forget another massacre by the Paras less than a year later the "Springhill Massacre" where a 13 year old girl was shot dead and in a separate incident a few months later a 12 year old boy was beaten to death in his bed.

In the early days of the troubles the IRA looked like boy scouts in comparison to the British army until some bright spark realised it was making them look bad and that it would be better to use loyalist paramilitaries to carry on their reign of terror against the oppressed Catholic people.

Hamsterchops

TheValeyard wrote: »

Mad to think it took 50 years just to get to this point

Well exactly my point, half a century ago...

Justice for the families, finally.

Marco23d

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well exactly my point, half a century ago...

Justice for the families, finally.

I wouldn't exactly call it justice

dd973

The people in charge of the British state and it's armed forces have a mindset that's rooted in the 1800's where they were exceptional, could do what they liked and ruled huge swathes of the world, the playing field has changed but the mindset hasn't, in their minds these were only Irish people.

This was the U.K state murdering it's own inhabitants, some of whom would have been U.K passport holders. They exhibit the same contempt for striking 1980's miners, Hillsborough campaigners, Grenfell Tower victims.

The first colony of the Brits were the English whom they brainwashed and continue to this day that 'the U.K' is some paragon of higher virtue and values.

I hope the Scots get away, reunification happens and that scum state is consigned to history, then even the English could finally try a construct a social democracy and become a normal, mid sized European country.

Victor

Marco23d wrote: »

Many of the residents in Ballymurphy fled across the border to refugee camps set up by the Republic it remains the largest movement of refugees in Europe since WW2.

It might have been at the time, but can I refer you to the former Yugoslavia and Ukraine, where the number of refugees and internally displaced people ran into the millions.

Marco23d

Victor wrote: »

It might have been at the time, but can I refer you to the former Yugoslavia and Ukraine, where the number of refugees and internally displaced people ran into the millions.

My mistake I should have said at the time.

Marco23d

Victor wrote: »

It might have been at the time, but can I refer you to the former Yugoslavia and Ukraine, where the number of refugees and internally displaced people ran into the millions.

My mistake I should have said at the time.

Hamsterchops

Marco23d wrote: »

I wouldn't exactly call it justice

Yes agreed, closure or acknowledgement, that the victims were innocent, might be better wording.

Colum Eastwood is a fine politician.

https://twitter.com/columeastwood/status/1392191049876049921?s=20

BonnieSituation

Deleted User wrote: »

Colum Eastwood is a fine politician.

https://twitter.com/columeastwood/status/1392191049876049921?s=20

He has really come into his own the last couple of years. The stench of Séamus Mallon might finally be lifting. Though they best not add the stench of FF.

smurgen

Funny that the lads who talked of murder non stop in the South's election last year are silent on this verdict. It's almost like they only care about certain victims based upon their religion/background. Beyond vile.

downcow

Firstly I am really pleased for the families of these innocent people. I was unaware of the situation until I watched in on an extended news bulletin last night. Horrific stuff and a terrible tome for that small community.

What I am less comfortable is the posters on here who have used it in their continual attempt to rewrite history in ni to, brits are bad, Irish are good.

These killings are certainly no worse than thousands of other killings in ni and elsewhere committed by Uvf, ira, etc.
The dilema goes on - is it better to investigate a tiny few or stop the investigations. I think I am in the later position. I know people today who are pleased for the ballymurphy families but are filled with additional hurt and grief as they try to understand why no one cares about the killing of their loved one.
Very difficult circle to square
But I suggest the anti british sentiment should be parked at times like these as many many British families are grieving and have had no enquiries.

I do trust this outcome is somehow helpful to the ballymurphy families

smurgen

smurgen wrote: »

Funny that the lads who talked of murder non stop in the South's election last year are silent on this verdict. It's almost like they only care about certain victims based upon their religion/background. Beyond vile.

Quit the lying

Simon Coveney has welcomed the coroner’s verdict in the Ballymurphy Massacre deaths of August, 1971.

In a statement, Mr. Coveney said: “While we will need to examine the full detail of the Coroner’s statement, the principal findings have cast a tremendous new light on one of the darkest pages of the history of the conflict, and will come as an immense relief and vindication for the families who have maintained for decades that their loved ones were innocent and their killings unjustified.

“Today’s historic developments wouldn’t have been possible without the determined campaign by the families of those killed in Ballymurphy for the truth of what took place in those terrible days in August 1971. I have met with the families during the course of their campaign and I want to acknowledge and pay tribute to that extraordinary achievement. All of them are in our thoughts today.

linky

McMurphy

Marine Layer wrote: »

Quit the lying


linky

I would assume that when he meant by "lads who talked of murder non stop in the South's election last year", he was referring to posters on this site, those that fall into the unionist/partitionist persuasion.

Unless of course Simon Coveney was talking non stop about murder in the north during the last election campaign?

In which case you'll no doubt have a "linky" for that too

Really shines a different light on the lying accusations now, doesn't it?

OscarMIlde

downcow wrote: »

Firstly I am really pleased for the families of these innocent people. I was unaware of the situation until I watched in on an extended news bulletin last night. Horrific stuff and a terrible tome for that small community.

What I am less comfortable is the posters on here who have used it in their continual attempt to rewrite history in ni to, brits are bad, Irish are good.

These killings are certainly no worse than thousands of other killings in ni and elsewhere committed by Uvf, ira, etc.
The dilema goes on - is it better to investigate a tiny few or stop the investigations. I think I am in the later position. I know people today who are pleased for the ballymurphy families but are filled with additional hurt and grief as they try to understand why no one cares about the killing of their loved one.
Very difficult circle to square
But I suggest the anti british sentiment should be parked at times like these as many many British families are grieving and have had no enquiries.

I do trust this outcome is somehow helpful to the ballymurphy families

I'm sorry, but calling for no anti-British sentiment on this thread is a disgrace. An elite group of paratroopers essentially besieged a working class estate in Belfast for three days, treating the residents as enemy combatants and target practice. They shot dead nine people, some of whom were left to bleed out and die slowly in agony with no assistance. Their families and loved ones would have been cowering in terror and unable to help lest they be shot themselves.

The dead were smeared as terrorists engaged in gunfire and legitimate targets. The paratroop regiment repeated these actions six months later in Derry showing that these were deliberate actions against a Nationalist population who dared to seek equality and fair play.

The head of the unit in Ballymurphy later became head of the British army, showing establishment approval of their actions.

It has taken half a century for the British establishment to admit what was known since day one. These people were ordinary, INNOCENT civilians, deemed fair game due to their Irish background. They have yet to enact true reparations by punishing those who commited those grevious acts and by admitting the truth about the full scale of collusion and provacation by the British state in Northern Ireland.

To choose yesterday of all days as the day to propose an amnesty for these and other horrific acts by the British state shows that we are not dealing with a government who values equality and the rule of law when it comes to Irish people.

downcow

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I'm sorry, but calling for no anti-British sentiment on this thread is a disgrace. An elite group of paratroopers essentially besieged a working class estate in Belfast for three days, treating the residents as enemy combatants and target practice. They shot dead nine people, some of whom were left to bleed out and die slowly in agony with no assistance. Their families and loved ones would have been cowering in terror and unable to help lest they be shot themselves.

The dead were smeared as terrorists engaged in gunfire and legitimate targets. The paratroop regiment repeated these actions six months later in Derry showing that these were deliberate actions against a Nationalist population who dared to seek equality and fair play.

The head of the unit in Ballymurphy later became head of the British army, showing establishment approval of their actions.

It has taken half a century for the British establishment to admit what was known since day one. These people were ordinary, INNOCENT civilians, deemed fair game due to their Irish background. They have yet to enact true reparations by punishing those who commited those grevious acts and by admitting the truth about the full scale of collusion and provacation by the British state in Northern Ireland.

To choose yesterday of all days as the day to propose an amnesty for these and other horrific acts by the British state shows that we are not dealing with a government who values equality and the rule of law when it comes to Irish people.

I don’t disagree with much of your description of that day but quite different from bloody Sunday imho.
I could of course use much more horrific descriptions of killings by Uvf and Ira than you have described here, but out of respect for the ballymurphy families, I will not.
I repeat that many grieving british families will be pleased at the comfort ballymurphy families have received but will wonder was their loved one less important.
This is the question about how we go forward- I don’t begrudge these families their answers. It’s very hard for british families to see the killers of their innocent loved ones sitting in eg the ni executive and the Dail

lulublue22

downcow wrote: »

I don’t disagree with much of your description of that day but quite different from bloody Sunday imho.
I could of course use much more horrific descriptions of killings by Uvf and Ira than you have described here, but out of respect for the ballymurphy families, I will not.
I repeat that many grieving british families will be pleased at the comfort ballymurphy families have received but will wonder was their loved one less important.
This is the question about how we go forward- I don’t begrudge these families their answers. It’s very hard for british families to see the killers of their innocent loved ones sitting in eg the ni executive and the Dail

This isn’t a thread about UVF / IRA killings - it’s a thread about agents representing the state killing innocent victims and the subsequent cover up. While all loss of life in NI during the troubles is tragic killings by state representatives who were charged with protecting all citizens are particularly insidious and should be persecuted in full.

downcow

lulublue22 wrote: »

This isn’t a thread about UVF / IRA killings - it’s a thread about agents representing the state killing innocent victims and the subsequent cover up. While all loss of life in NI during the troubles is tragic killings by state representatives who were charged with protecting all citizens are particularly insidious and should be persecuted in full.

So you see a hierarchy of victims in ni? We’ve been trying to tell the shinners that for years. It’s what has held up ni, the inability of people to recognise that all victims are not the same.

Here we go. Start off mild and talking like a politician, then starting ramping up the jack waving, and before you know it he’ll be saying all victims of the crown deserved it. Could set your watch by it.

lulublue22

downcow wrote: »

So you see a hierarchy of victims in ni? We’ve been trying to tell the shinners that for years. It’s what has held up ni, the inability of people to recognise that all victims are not the same.

No one other than yourself see a hierarchy of victims and if you can’t or won’t understand as to why the state needs to be held accountable for it’s actions that’s on you.

Haven’t a notion in getting into a back and forth with you re the shinners etc etc.

Hamsterchops

I can only presume Seamus Mallon suffered with a medical condition which caused the odours? Great man, sad loss.

lawred2

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Here we go. Start off mild and talking like a politician, then starting ramping up the jack waving, and before you know it he’ll be saying all victims of the crown deserved it. Could set your watch by it.

People just need not to bite.

lurleen lumpkin

downcow wrote: »

Firstly I am really pleased for the families of these innocent people. I was unaware of the situation until I watched in on an extended news bulletin last night. Horrific stuff and a terrible tome for that small community.

What I am less comfortable is the posters on here who have used it in their continual attempt to rewrite history in ni to, brits are bad, Irish are good.

These killings are certainly no worse than thousands of other killings in ni and elsewhere committed by Uvf, ira, etc.
The dilema goes on - is it better to investigate a tiny few or stop the investigations. I think I am in the later position. I know people today who are pleased for the ballymurphy families but are filled with additional hurt and grief as they try to understand why no one cares about the killing of their loved one.
Very difficult circle to square
But I suggest the anti british sentiment should be parked at times like these as many many British families are grieving and have had no enquiries.

I do trust this outcome is somehow helpful to the ballymurphy families

Seriously? Couldn't you have read the room and held your tongue just once.

TheValeyard

TheValeyard wrote: »

Mad to think it took 50 years just to get to this point

Not mad at all, amazed it wasn't buried for a hundred years, or at least until everyone involved was deceased or too old to put on trial.

Then get a paltry apology from the government of the day, they just don't care.

anplaya27

Another murder they perpetrated was the shooting of Eamon McDavitt, a Deaf Irish Sign Language user from Strabane in 1972 I think it was.

The British Army admitted 40 years later they covered up his murder.

They fabricated lies that he was waving a gun, when in fact witnesses testified that he was trying to tell them that he was Deaf and couldnt understand their instructions.

Says it all really.

volchitsa

anplaya27 wrote: »

Another murder they perpetrated was the shooting of Eamon McDavitt, a Deaf Irish Sign Language user from Strabane in 1972 I think it was.

The British Army admitted 40 years later they covered up his murder.

They fabricated lies that he was waving a gun, when in fact witnesses testified that he was trying to tell them that he was Deaf and couldnt understand their instructions.

Says it all really.

There are so many: the 16 year old in Dunloy who found an arms cache in a graveyard, and who, after his father had told the police about it, returned the following day to see if they were still there and was murdered by SAS men who had set up a watch on the arms - that they only knew about because his family had told the cops.

But of course the army then claimed that he was waving a rifle at them - complete lies, when he was shot in the back and his fingerprints were not on any gun - and IIRC, the package only had a corner torn open, where he and his father had checked what was inside.

It's not just the killings, it's the deliberate smearing of the victims afterwards that makes it so hard to put up with the way the British and their supporters like Harris (and Downcow) still feel they have a claim to occupy the high moral ground.

head82

I was unaware of this incident until seeing a fantastic documentary from 2018.. Massacre at Ballymurphy (aka The Ballymurphy Precedent).
It was screened on CH4 and RTE in September 2018. Well worth seeking out.
Although I'm not sure where you'd go to find it. Doesn't appear to be on YouTube.
Truly shocking stuff!

In light of recent events, it may get a repeat. Keep an eye out for it.

overshoot

downcow wrote: »

These killings are certainly no worse than thousands of other killings in ni and elsewhere committed by Uvf, ira, etc.

I'm actually deeply troubled by thoughts such as this. A state is supposed to protect its citizens, not murder in cold blood and then blacken their name to get away with it. In this case it even included one of their own in John McKerr, who lost a hand in WW2 fighting for the British army.

If you think the British army should be held to the same standard as terrorists I'd actually have to say shame on you

OscarMIlde

head82 wrote: »

I was unaware of this incident until seeing a fantastic documentary from 2018.. Massacre at Ballymurphy (aka The Ballymurphy Precedent).
It was screened on CH4 and RTE in September 2018. Well worth seeking out.
Although I'm not sure where you'd go to find it. Doesn't appear to be on YouTube.
Truly shocking stuff!

In light of recent events, it may get a repeat. Keep an eye out for it.

Channel 4 are showing it again tonight.