Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

wes

wes wrote: »

I take your point, but what happened in the past doesn't mean the exact same thing would happen in the future. If that was the case, then we would be due Europe starting another world war any day now.

Yes. But you, being concerned with oppression and equality as you are, must surely see that, given the sociopolitical landscape, there is significant risk of that, right? And presumably to want to avoid simply "switching the sides" of the ongoing immiseration?

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. But you, being concerned with oppression and equality as you are, must surely see that, given the sociopolitical landscape, there is significant risk of that, right? And presumably to want to avoid simply "switching the sides" of the ongoing immiseration?

The attitude that Palestinians will inevitably turn around and just oppress Israeli's, ignores that the fact that this is not inevitable or even likely.

Opposing equality on the grounds that in a hypothetical future situation, that those oppressed would just immediately turn around and become oppressors strikes me at best fatalism, and at worse an excuse to justify ongoing oppression.

Of course any solution will have to provide protection to both sides of the equation. Far to often in this conflict, Palestinians actual ongoing oppression is ignored in favour of potential future situations that result in the other side getting the short end of the stick.

Look at Europe, sure its far from perfect, but Europe isn't about to launch another world war anytime soon.

Steps can be taken to protect the rights of both sides. It is not inevitable that their will be conflict or oppression.

SafeSurfer

markodaly wrote: »

I'm not sure about that. From reports, they have killed lots of Hamas militants, including Bassem Issa.

Put it this way, what has Hamas achieved apart from more death and destruction in the Gaza strip?
The status quo suits Israel fine, it is up to the PLO and Hamas to change the game and get to a long-lasting solution to the issue.

Or, will we see Hamas just regroup and do the same thing again in 5 years with the same predictable outcomes?

I don’t think that it can be reasonably argued that the ceasefire represents a victory for Israel. Quite the opposite in fact. An IDF spokesperson claimed 2 days ago that to stop the attack on Gaza prematurely would be a victory for Hamas. Netanyahu claimed the attack would not cease until they had silenced Hamas’ rockets.

The IDF’s military objectives have not been achieved but they have been forced to agree to a ceasefire.

Hamas has achieved their aim of putting their plight front and centre of the agenda. Shining the international spotlight on Israel’s behavior in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza. US politicians are openly questioning the validity of arms sales and military aid to Israel.

All this as the US pivots it’s foreign policy to meet a more confident and assertive China and the whole Middle East region seems less and less strategically important as we transition from an oil based economy.

With all this in mind I think the belief that the ceasefire somehow represents a victory for Israel is very much a minority opinion.

wes

wes wrote: »

...Opposing equality...

Could you indicate who has opposed equality, and how?

If you're looking for a fight we'll just leave it here. I'm not your entertainment today, I'm afraid.

Fandymo

Odhinn wrote: »

its wrong to fire unguided rockets at civilians

The 80% of Israelis who do IDF training shouldn’t be living in civilian areas. Causes collateral damage.

SafeSurfer

SafeSurfer wrote: »

With all this in mind I think the belief that the ceasefire somehow represents a victory for Israel is very much a minority opinion.

Ultimately, it depends on personal opinion.

Those who are anti-Israel no matter what, will consider this a victory for Hamas or, if Hamas is not their thing, "not a victory for Israel".

Whilst those who support democratic Israel will justify the defensive measures taken to uphold the security of the nation.

Fandymo

Fandymo wrote: »

The 80% of Israelis who do IDF training shouldn’t be living in civilian areas. Causes collateral damage.

I don't think you've fully thought this through.

wes

SafeSurfer wrote: »

With all this in mind I think the belief that the ceasefire somehow represents a victory for Israel is very much a minority opinion.

Its a victory for Netanyahu rather than Israel. He managed to avoid losing power, and hasn't ended up in jail for corruption.

He has come out more popular than ever, and its amazing that so few people in Israel see that the recent conflict was due to Netanyahu, wanting to avoid jail.

SafeSurfer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ultimately, it depends on personal opinion.

Those who are anti-Israel no matter what, will consider this a victory for Hamas or, if Hamas is not their thing, "not a victory for Israel".

Whilst those who support democratic Israel will justify the defensive measures taken to uphold the security of the nation.

One can support Israel and justify the defensive measures whilst acknowledging that the IDF’s objectives were not met and therefore by their own criteria the operation was ultimately unsuccessful.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you indicate who has opposed equality, and how?

The government of Israel (nation state law for example).......... and supporters of of said governments belligerence.

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're looking for a fight we'll just leave it here. I'm not your entertainment today, I'm afraid.

??????

Fandymo

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

I don't think you've fully thought this through.

It’s the excuse Israel uses.

SafeSurfer

wes wrote: »

Its a victory for Netanyahu rather than Israel. He managed to avoid losing power, and hasn't ended up in jail for corruption.

He has come out more popular than ever, and its amazing that so few people in Israel see that the recent conflict was due to Netanyahu, wanting to avoid jail.

He was retained power and avoided jail. So far.

Any increase in his popularity can be explained by the galvanising effect of war on a population.
As the dust settles questions will be asked about his handling of the conflict.

Even if he has retained power within Israel in the medium term, his political capital international has been seriously devalued so in effect he emerges from the conflict less powerful than when it commenced.

wes

SafeSurfer wrote: »

He was retained power and avoided jail. So far.

Any increase in his popularity can be explained by the galvanising effect of war on a population.
As the dust settles questions will be asked about his handling of the conflict.

It will be interesting to see if that happens. IMO, Netanyahu shares the most responsibility for the recent conflict than any other group or individual and is a poor leader as he acted in his personal self interest.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Even if he has retained power within Israel in the medium term, his political capital international has been seriously devalued so in effect he emerges from the conflict less powerful than when it commenced.

We will have to see if this actual has any actual practical consequences. Perhaps the BDS campaign will be seen a reasonable response, as opposed to how it is characterized in some quarters, as being anti-semitic.

cnocbui

Deleted User wrote: »

If the roles were reversed and the Palestinians had the firepower instead of the Israelis, do you really think they would exercise the same restraint?

I think they would send in the tanks to crush every Jewish man, woman and child if they could.

I'm all for tetsing your hypothesis.

cnocbui

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

It's illegal, morally repugnant, and wrong.
They should stop. Peace is unlikely if they persist.

Whats your opinion on Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians, are they legitimate targets, or is it wrong to fire unguided rockets at civilians?

Let me know when Israel provides the Palestinians with guidance systems or lets them import some.

Fandymo

Fandymo wrote: »

The 80% of Israelis who do IDF training shouldn’t be living in civilian areas. Causes collateral damage.

It's compulsory.
FFS

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

Let me know when Israel provides the Palestinians with guidance systems or lets them import some.

The blockade is there for a reason, to ensure that Hamas does not smuggle items through that can be used for military purposes. And Hamas can do that across many channels, even if the blockade is for items that appear to have no connection to weaponry.

We all know how sneaky and inventive criminals can be to try and smuggle goods through airports. They've tried every trick in the book. In fact, they write a whole new book of methods each year. Hamas would no doubt do the same.

You simply cannot trust a terrorist jihadi organization.

Timberrrrrrrr

bubblypop wrote: »

It's compulsory.
FFS

And yet there are exemptions.

namloc1980

Israeli forces have moved into the Al Aqsa Mosque grounds in Jerusalem firing rubber bullets. Somebody high up doesn't want this ceasefire to last and is trying to goad a response.

wes

namloc1980 wrote: »

Israeli forces have moved into the Al Aqsa Mosque grounds in Jerusalem firing rubber bullets. Somebody high up doesn't want this ceasefire to last and is trying to goad a response.

FFS, Israel has already broken the ceasefire.

I do hope Hamas isn't stupid enough to fire rockets, but the problem is that they might not have control right now, after the destruction the IDF visited upon Gaza, as other more extreme groups may decide to retaliate.

Snickers Man

Five Eighth wrote: »

Anyone who criticizes the actions of the Israel government is branded 'left-wing' and 'anti-semitic'.

Should people be afraid of being branded "Anti Semites"?

One person who wasn't was Michael Davitt. Yes. THE Michael Davitt. Leader of the Irish Land League (the 19th century one). Former Fenian. Champion of the Little Guy. And also, just by the way, a supporter of the Zionist project which was getting under weigh in his day.

Davitt was a true radical who took an active interest in the great affairs of the world of his day. In 1903 he wrote a book about his observations in Kishinev in the Russian Empire (now Chisinau, Moldova) which had been the site of a vicious pogrom against its Jewish inhabitants and to which Davitt had travelled, on behalf of William Randolph Hearst's newspaper organisation, to investigate.

The book entitled "Within the Pale" was originally published by A.S Barnes & Co in New York but the digital edition, of which I have a copy, appears to have been made available by the Philadelphia based "The Jewish Publication Society of America"!

In the book's preface, Davitt writes:
"Where anti-Semitism stands...in opposition to the foes of nationality, or against the engineers of a sordid war in South Africa, or as the assailant of the economic evils of unscrupulous capitalism everywhere, I am resolutely in line with its spirit and programme.

"Where, however, it only speaks and acts in a cowardly racial warfare, which descends to the use of an atrocious fabrication responsible for odious and unspeakable crimes like those that are to its credit in the massacres of Kishinev, it becomes a thing deserving of no more toleration from right-minded men than do the germs of some malady laden with the poison of a malignant disease."

Translation: Anti Semites sometimes have a point but occasionally they go too far and disgrace themselves.

Lest I be seen to trash Davitt's reputation in Jewish and/or Zionist eyes, the book is a scarifying account of the evils wrought on the Jews of Kishinev by their Christian neighbours, egged on by the Tsarist police which Davitt compares to the Royal Irish Constabulary. (Well, he would have known!)

Elsewhere in the same book, in a chapter entitled "The Zionist Solution", Davitt pronounces his support for that very project.

"I have come from a journey through the Jewish Pale [the areas of the Russian Empire where Jews were permitted to live] a convinced believer in the remedy of Zionism."

He also opines: "The Arab is of the same racial family as the descendants of Father Abraham, and even were the offspring of Ishmael more numerous in Palestine than they are estimated to be, they might be trusted to show no more savage propensities towards their Israelitish kindred than Russian Seminarists or Roumanian Christians have done in recent years."

The words of a man who, by his own admission, could sometimes be "resolutely in line with the spirit" of anti-Semitism.

If he wasn't afraid of being called an anti-Semite, why should anyone be today?

To paraphrase, personalise and update to today's conditions: "Where anti Semitism stands in opposition to persistent, relentless Israeli attempts to dispossess Palestinians of their territory using a combination of military excuses, judicial instruments that take the meaning of chutzpah (unsurprisingly a Hebrew word) to new levels and force majeure occupation, or where it engages in the ruthless bombardment with space-age weaponry of a million slum dwellers hemmed in by a vicious and reprehensible blockade I am resolutely in line with its spirit.

When however it descends to racial demonification of Jews, attacks on Jewish persons or property, denial of the very real persecutions visited on Jews throughout the centuries culminating in the Nazi attempt at their systematic eradication it is an evil manifestation of racism to which all sane people must be opposed."

In a nutshell: it all depends on what you mean by anti-Semitism.

wes

Al Jazeera covering it:
Israeli police storm Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, fire tear gas: Live

Israeli police storm Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, fire tear gas
Israeli police stormed the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem’s Old City.

Witnesses inside the compound said that after Friday prayers many Palestinians stayed at the premises to celebrate the ceasefire between Hamas and the Israeli government.

“They were singing and chanting when a contingent of the Israeli police [stationed] next to the compound came into the compound and started using crowd control measures that they use all the time, including stun grenades, smoke bombs and tear gas,” Al Jazeera’s Imran Khan, reporting from occupied East Jerusalem, said.

“They started firing in that crowd in an effort to try and disperse them.”

Will be interesting to see if the Western media bothers to cover it, or will ignore it.

More aggression from the IDF, and it will of course be ignored by the usual suspects.

namloc1980

Israeli forces moving into the Al Aqsa Mosque grounds is highly inflammatory and completely counter productive. I suspect they know that and are just trying to get a reaction so that they can point fingers at Hamas etc. Disgusting.

cnocbui

eskimohunt wrote: »

The blockade is there for a reason, to ensure that Hamas does not smuggle items through that can be used for military purposes. And Hamas can do that across many channels, even if the blockade is for items that appear to have no connection to weaponry.

We all know how sneaky and inventive criminals can be to try and smuggle goods through airports. They've tried every trick in the book. In fact, they write a whole new book of methods each year. Hamas would no doubt do the same.

You simply cannot trust a terrorist jihadi organization.

I said let me know when they do something they currently don't, not tell me about something they currently do that I am perfectly well aware of.

Israel is a nation of inventive sneaky criminals. They steal other people's lands, they steal their money, they kill them if they object and put up any resistance, they steal millitary secrets from the US, they stole the entire plans of the French mirage fighter. Israel doesn't occupy any moral high ground at any level.

cnocbui

namloc1980 wrote: »

Israeli forces have moved into the Al Aqsa Mosque grounds in Jerusalem firing rubber bullets. Somebody high up doesn't want this ceasefire to last and is trying to goad a response.

So firing poorly guided deadly projectiles at civillians then. :rolleyes:

wes

Its been less than 24 hours and the IDF is at it again attacking Palestinians. This is some ****ing bull****, it really is. The Western world won't do a thing, or care, unless there is Palestinian retaliation.

namloc1980

wes wrote: »

Its been less than 24 hours and the IDF is at it again attacking Palestinians. This is some ****ing bull****, it really is. The Western world won't do a thing, or care, unless there is Palestinian retaliation.

Silence from the pro-Israel crowd as per usual or they'll try to blame the Palestinians.

cnocbui

namloc1980 wrote: »

Silence from the pro-Israel crowd as per usual or they'll try to blame the Palestinians.

Give them a chance, it's still early in the US.

cnocbui

Can we kick them out of Eurovision yet?

Timberrrrrrrr

cnocbui wrote: »

Can we kick them out of Eurovision yet?

Kick them.out of everything, turn them into a pariah state, put tariffs on everything they sell.