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Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,302 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Is there any logic/explanation at all as to why worshippers would start a riot at the Al-Aqsa Mosque area?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,302 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Look at this brave fella throwing a stun grenade at some people moving away from the mosque. What a hero he is.

    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    I have seen video that starts in the middle of what is obviously an ongoing situation, and regardless of how much you and others want to goad me into it, I am not going to pretend that I have the full facts of what occurred prior to the beginning of that video, nor am I going to react to the contents of the video until more information is available.

    I don't know why anyone would.

    My "thoughts" are meaningless without the relevant facts.

    Odd.

    Surley one can have thoughts something without needing to be told what happend. I have thoughts on what I have seen but of cousre my opinion can change as more facts emerge.

    Let me ask you this way, do you think the “police” were right to throw a stun gernade at the man, woman and child who were turned away and walking away?

    Is it normal in any country to toss stun gernades at people in any cases? To me, absent of more facts from Israel or other media, it looks pretty wrong.

    Again that’s not my judgement - but from what I see it seems wrong and like a pure act of intimidation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,458 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I have seen video that starts in the middle of what is obviously an ongoing situation, and regardless of how much you and others want to goad me into it, I am not going to pretend that I have the full facts of what occurred prior to the beginning of that video, nor am I going to react to the contents of the video until more information is available.

    I don't know why anyone would.

    My "thoughts" are meaningless without the relevant facts.

    I don't know why there is a need to get so defensive about this, as though you are being attacked personally. We're having a discussion, someone calls something a riot, people have a right to ask where the evidence backing that term came from, it's not about 'scoring points' or whatever you seem to be implying. Catch more flies with honey etc. it should suffice to say "I don't have evidence but that's what's been alleged in reports." etc.
    I didn't argue that there was rioting, I said that I'd seen reports of rioting. In a post to you. Like, a direct response to you in this thread. And the post itself was a response to you quoting that post, and then commenting about "chanting and making your beliefs known" - which is a different thing to the rioting that I had already said was only something I had seen reported. At the same time as I said that I didn't know what had occurred in Al-Aqsa, and would wait for more information.

    Again: what are you doing here? I'm at a loss to understand this post that completely misunderstands or seems not to have been present for the preceding discussion... but you were my interlocutor for much of it.

    And the reason I didn't ask you for the proof is that 1) it wasn't materially relevant to the particulars we were discussing (ie. just being left the hell alone, give Muslims their space, and nobody will be in their space to riot with, whether or not there is rioting between Muslims and whoever else was there as an non-muslim interocular group) and 2) I myself understood you were referencing headlines, so again, wasn't in the interest of me to split that hair. However, another poster did ask, and you flipped out about "****ing stuttering etc." right after responding to their request with a dickish "lol" which IMHO I did not think was a civil way to address that whatsoever.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Is there any logic/explanation at all as to why worshippers would start a riot at the Al-Aqsa Mosque area?

    Again - no idea.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    Odd.

    Surley one can have thoughts something without needing to be told what happend.

    People can do whatever they want, but I'm not sure it would be at all productive to splurge my emotional response to a partial picture onto the internet. YMMV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    People can do whatever they want, but I'm not sure it would be at all productive to splurge my emotional response to a partial picture onto the internet. YMMV.

    We are discussing the evidence at hand on a topic on a thread about the same topic. Why else are you here?

    “ partial picture onto the internet. “

    A couple of posts above are videos, those are primary sources - the most valuable type source.why are you trying to label them as “partial pictures”? Why are you downplaying the clear evidence on hand?

    Edit : I think I’ve take “partial picture” as literal vs what you meant , half the story - will leave my idiocy there though :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,458 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The Israel Police say the worshippers have petrol bombs. Has there been any confirmation of this in video etc?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    I don't know why there is a need to get so defensive about this, as though you are being attacked personally. We're having a discussion, someone calls something a riot, people have a right to ask where the evidence backing that term came from, it's not about 'scoring points' or whatever you seem to be implying. Catch more flies with honey etc. it should suffice to say "I don't have evidence but that's what's been alleged in reports." etc.

    I don't know why you have taken it upon yourself to think I'm being "defensive". That would require me having something to defend myself over, and I simply do not consider "I don't know enough about this situation yet to form an opinion" to be that.

    I did not "call something a riot", I stated in my first post that I had seen it reported as such. I also stated that I'd seen it reported as the Israeli police storming the mosque without provocation, but there's no pushback on that, despite a lack of evidence that that was how it began. Odd.

    In case the issue here is one of reading comprehension: that is not me being "defensive". It is a statement of fact, easily verifiable with a little clicking and scrolling by anyone who fancies to do so.
    Overheal wrote: »
    However, another poster did ask, and you flipped out about "****ing stuttering etc."

    Incorrect. That was a response to you. You're being over-emotional and projecting it. There is no "flipping out" to be found on my end. Please try to keep that in check.
    Overheal wrote: »
    right after responding to their request with a dickish "lol" which IMHO I did not think was a civil way to address that whatsoever.

    Being repeatedly asked to make a clear judgment or provide proof of something after repeatedly saying "I don't know" is a ridiculous situation. I ridiculed it. People can do with that whatever they see fit, and become as offended as they wish to allow themselves. None of my business.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    thomas 123 wrote: »

    Edit : I think I’ve take “partial picture” as literal vs what you meant , half the story - will leave my idiocy there though :p

    Yes that was what I meant. The videos I've seen begin in the middle of some sort of ongoing situation. I'm just holding out until I know the full picture a bit better.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    The Israel Police say the worshippers have petrol bombs. Has there been any confirmation of this in video etc?

    None that I've seen.

    I did see a video of an Israeli police officer pushing a CNN reporter producer around that hasn't been posted here, but I can't find it now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Sadler Peak


    Max Blumenthal has some very interesting takes on this on the Jimmy Dore Show on YouTube.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Overheal wrote: »
    The Israel Police say the worshippers have petrol bombs. Has there been any confirmation of this in video etc?

    Not seen this on any of the reports of videos I have seen. Surely, if they had petrol bombs, something would be on fire, and the news would pick it up very easily.

    Seeing nothing on the Al Jazeera live updates:
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/21/jubilation-in-gaza-as-ceasefire-takes-effect-palestine-israel-live


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,458 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That's sort of what I was thinking. If Police can point to petrol bombs they can point to premeditation. Rocks, not so much, there are rocks everywhere in Jerusalem, having a rock isn't a smoking gun that you are the aggressor. If there was a cache of petrol bombs, that would be a fair rise to disperse everyone for safety.

    (also though teargas is combustible - eg. Waco, and other lethal incidents where US law enforcement used it in confined spaces; not that we see it used inside the Mosque in any above video). I guess I will say at least they haven't reportedly used skunkwater or any other tactics which are on the whole basically just thinly veiled hate crimes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,084 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The Israeli police have arabic speaking undercover officers who infiltrate Palesinian groups and gatherings. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jerusalem-latest-updates-israel-idf-troops-palestinian-protesters-palestine-dco-ramallah-west-bank-a8110476.html

    To me it indicates you have to careful in jumping to conclusions and attributing actions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,458 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    cnocbui wrote: »
    The Israeli police have arabic speaking undercover officers who infiltrate Palesinian groups and gatherings. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jerusalem-latest-updates-israel-idf-troops-palestinian-protesters-palestine-dco-ramallah-west-bank-a8110476.html

    To me it indicates you have to careful in jumping to conclusions and attributing actions.

    It also in itself kinda gaslights everything the police do, or the IDF. If they are infiltrating groups they can as surely instigate these groups from within.

    I hope their justification for bombing the AP doesn't simply boil down to "Well, WE were able to sneak people in here, THEREFORE, Hamas MUST be here too."


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,587 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Overheal wrote: »
    Why do I get the feeling if a Palestinian mother ever left her baby alone with someone else in Israel she would never see it again.

    Seems misplaced


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Man in brawl with pro-Palestinians appeared to have knife, was alongside members of U.S.-deemed terror group


    One of the videos purporting to be Pro-Palestinians protesters attacking Pro-Israeli protesters is false. A lot of these videos are completely unverified and deliberately edited to mislead and then far right social media boosts it, and by the time its corrected no one cares.

    In this case some of the attackers were seemingly members of the Jewish Defense League terrorist group. So what was claimed to be an attack by pro-Palestinians, turns out to have been a terrorist attack by a known terrorist group, who were able to openly walk the street of Toronto, attack people and got the people they attacked blamed.

    We will unlikely see corrections and apologies by politicians who condemned the victims of this terror attack, as their are rarely consequences for the far right and far right terrorist groups.

    Videos posted on here, especially when the source is a well known far right operative need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt, until we get confirmation on what has happened, as we know that people are deliberately spreading disinformation, especially those on the right and far right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Ethnic cleansing in Sheikh Jarrah continues:
    https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1395794517689700354?s=20

    The one sided violence from the IDF and settlers continues unabated, despite a "cease" fire. It amazing how Israeli violence and ethnic cleansing is acceptable for some reason, even when there is a supposed "cease" fire. It seems that the "cease" fire is only expected for Palestinians while the IDF and settlers get to be as violent as they like.

    It is an unacceptable double standard and the lack of condemnation from most of the rest of the world and indeed the lack of sanctions, is rather telling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,458 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Igotadose wrote: »

    It's really not, though. #Respectfully

    edit: sans paywall info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Children_Affair
    Many of the complaints have common characteristics:
    • Almost all the missing children were under the age of 3, they were the children of new immigrants who were less than a year in Israel and who arrived at the newly founded country in the immigration waves of those years (see also Operation Magic Carpet), and almost all were descendants of Mizrahi Jews—especially descendants of immigrants from Yemen.
    • Almost all disappeared while in hospitals or when they were allegedly taken to hospitals.
    • Almost all the parents received only a spoken explanation that their children had died. The spoken message was only given to the parents when they inquired about the cause of their children's disappearance and in most instances they were told of their child's sudden death only after the funeral (or the alleged funeral) was held in their absence. In addition, the death records were incomplete.
    • Some of the parents of the children who disappeared received a recruitment order from the Israel Defense Forces at a time when their children were supposed to approach the age of recruitment.

    It's not hard to establish why the terms ethnic cleansing and genocide are often attributed to Israel.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    64 children killed in rocket attacks. What always surprises me about this is how people trot out the line "Hamas want to destroy the state of Israel".

    Your state routinely kills kids, displaces a native people from their land and discriminates against those individuals and you complain that they want to wipe out your state?

    Any ethnic group that is treated like how the Israeli state treats Palestinians will want to wipe out their oppressor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,458 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users Posts: 83,458 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    US Major League Soccer athlete describes an anti-Semitic incident he allegedly experienced in New York City.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CPI9FGHhmWP/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=06f44e70-864b-4a65-b7a9-6753506b059d
    The New York Red Bulls goalkeeper described the scene on his personal Instagram page, writing that the incident occurred while he was walking with a friend.

    “A group of 6-8 Palestinian men walk up to me and asked me where I was from,” Lewis wrote. “I responded and said ‘New York.’ Than one guy asks me if I was Jewish. I pause for a moment in confusion and thought about it, then I saw them withdrawing knives.”

    Lewis then answered, “no.”



    “The guy looked at me with such disgust in his eyes and said ‘Good.’ As I started walking away, I got extremely angry and felt like I had to say something,” Lewis continued. “So I turned back around and said ‘what if I was Jewish?’”

    Lewis then writes the group of men walked up to him and the person who asked the original question threatened the soccer player, “I’ll beat the f*ckin sh*t out of you and kill you.’”

    https://www.mediaite.com/sports/pro-soccer-player-details-horrifying-anti-semitic-threat-they-asked-me-if-i-was-jewish-then-i-saw-them-withdrawing-knives/


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »

    Fair play to you for posting that. Jews who have nothing to do with Israel are getting a lot of heat around the world.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,587 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Interesting read on what's going on via Clubhouse (an online audio chat.) We all need more efforts like this:

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/05/palestinian-israeli-clubhouse-conversation.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    A very worthwhile group I have been following for years, The Parents Circle-Families Forum, was set up in 1995 . It brings together Palestinian and Israeli families who have lost loved ones in the conflict. This will explain what it does

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Parents_Circle-Families_Forum


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Fair play to you for posting that. Jews who have nothing to do with Israel are getting a lot of heat around the world.

    Where?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    64 children killed in rocket attacks. What always surprises me about this is how people trot out the line "Hamas want to destroy the state of Israel".

    They openly admit it and have done since the establishment of the state of Israel. If Israel let them live in peace, gave them back all the land that they wanted, and pandered to every one of their needs, the Palestinian people would still fundamentally disagree with the existence of Israel, and long for the destruction of Israel. They'd blast Israel off the face of the earth today, if they had the resources.


  • Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Fuascailteoir


    tara2k wrote: »
    They openly admit it and have done since the establishment of the state of Israel. If Israel let them live in peace, gave them back all the land that they wanted, and pandered to every one of their needs, the Palestinian people would still fundamentally disagree with the existence of Israel, and long for the destruction of Israel. They'd blast Israel off the face of the earth today, if they had the resources.

    One of the greatest disinformation campaigns in history had been conducted in relation to this. Israel had been extremely successful in portraying this as a conflict that is between two comparatively even sides and that the Palestinians pose an existential threat to the Jewish people. It is also portrayed as being very complex and intractable. It is neither of those things. It is no war, it is colonial conquest. An oppressed and dispossessed people at the mercy of a much more heavily armed and technological superior force which views them as disposable.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    tara2k wrote: »
    They openly admit it and have done since the establishment of the state of Israel. If Israel let them live in peace, gave them back all the land that they wanted, and pandered to every one of their needs, the Palestinian people would still fundamentally disagree with the existence of Israel, and long for the destruction of Israel. They'd blast Israel off the face of the earth today, if they had the resources.

    You mean if Palestine had the resources they would do what Israel are doing now? Israel has literally tried to erase Palestine from the map.


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