Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Overheal

PeggyShippen wrote: »

The Aboriginal people of Australia aren't 'wiped' out. They still live there. Its quiet ludicrous to say they don't. The same with the Natuve Americans. Why would you say such inflammatory falsehoods. The biggest killer of Native Americans was other Native Americans and disease. Your post is ludicrous

That's a bit of a whitewash. Smallpox arrived with the colonists. Colonists wiped out the natives both through accident and through deliberate action.

nacho libre

eskimohunt wrote: »

Children are routinely arrested.

For some perspective, children account for almost 10 percent of all recorded crimes in Ireland.

Now imagine how febrile the atmosphere can be in Israel at times, and you can understand why children may, at times, need to be arrested.

It's easy to use children for propaganda reasons such as this but, when you take a step back and consider the broader picture - in tandem with how every other country also arrests/detains children at times - you see a very different picture indeed.

It also exposes bias, needless to say.

The broader picture is that Israel is responsible for this febrile atmosphere. These arrests are mainly a consequence of this febrile atmosphere, which you seek to deflect from by drawing a false equivalency with the arrests of children in other countries, but these children are not subject to a criminal subjugation - which, again, you can't acknowledge due to your bias - so the comparison isn't quite valid.
It seems you are well able to call out bias you perceive in others, but are not able to see your own bias.

Overheal

FactsANDLogic wrote: »

Two Israelis were stabbed, but that doesn't count apparently.

Do you think it should?

Mimon

PeggyShippen wrote: »

The Aboriginal people of Australia aren't 'wiped' out. They still live there. Its quiet ludicrous to say they don't. The same with the Natuve Americans. Why would you say such inflammatory falsehoods. The biggest killer of Native Americans was other Native Americans and disease. Your post is ludicrous

Are you actually being serious? Both peoples have had their cultures destroyed and genocide committed on them. You really need to do some reading on this.

Overheal

FactsANDLogic wrote: »

Should palestinian terrorism count? yes, I think it should. Not the hardest question I've had thrown at me.

So, it follows, you believe the ceasefire is nulled and IDF should launch missiles at Gaza for the actions of those individuals in Israel?

cnocbui

PeggyShippen wrote: »

The Aboriginal people of Australia aren't 'wiped' out. They still live there. Its quiet ludicrous to say they don't. The same with the Natuve Americans. Why would you say such inflammatory falsehoods. The biggest killer of Native Americans was other Native Americans and disease. Your post is ludicrous

I'm an Australian. There are still some aboriginals, but it's not for want of trying, we missed a few. What happened in Australia was apalling, as with most colonisations.

The colonisation of America saw Native Americans systematically murdered on a vast scale. It was nothing less than deliberate genocide. In California, 80% of Native Americans were killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll

In the US, the high estimate of the native American population appears to be 18 million. By 1890 there were 250,000 left. Disease was probably the major cause, but colonisers deliberatly spread disease to NAs to wipe them out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

nacho libre

FactsANDLogic wrote: »

Palestinian terrorism preceded occupation, preceded settlements and preceded the state of Israel itself.

These are the uncomfortable facts that Hamas shills conveniently forget.

Speaking of uncomfortable facts, why did you not point out Israel's support for Hamas against the PLO in its early days. Also, state and non state terrorism supported by shills. Shills, who view the likes of Ariel Sharon, as a hero. These are also uncomfortable facts that apologists conveniently overlook.

Or we could move on and deal with the present day reality of the aforementioned subjugation by Israel, instead of dredging up the past to avoid it.

Overheal

Hamas run a summer camp for kids to teach them how to stab Jews from behind.

Your average Israeli is expected to serve a minimum of 2 years in the IDF. What do you think they train them to do?

LMHC

FactsANDLogic wrote: »

Actions by a government. The perpetrators are paid to murder by the PA.

I think Israel would be in the right to launch a strike against a terrorist target in response.

Israel is state sponsored terrorism

Overheal

Hulk swung a little too close at Disney's Infinity Stones.

https://twitter.com/MarkRuffalo/status/1397023731722113032?s=20

conorhal

Overheal wrote: »

Hulk swung a little too close at Disney's Infinity Stones.

https://twitter.com/MarkRuffalo/status/1397023731722113032?s=20

Well it was rediculous hyperbole.

The population of Palestine has quadrupled since 1947, if the Israeli's are intent on a genocide, they're doing a piss poor job if it.

Overheal

conorhal wrote: »

Well it was rediculous hyperbole.

The population of Palestine has quadrupled since 1947, if the Israeli's are intent on a genocide, they're doing a piss poor job if it.

Indeed, yet marred by the fact Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing all the same.

Necro

Troll go bye bye now. Thread cleaned up. As you were folks!

Necro

Necro wrote: »

Troll go bye bye now. Thread cleaned up. As you were folks!

i have the weirdest feeling of deja vu right now

wes

Overheal wrote: »

Hulk swung a little too close at Disney's Infinity Stones.

https://twitter.com/MarkRuffalo/status/1397023731722113032?s=20

If we are to follow that logic, we can't talk about anything bad China does, as it could result in Anti-Asian racism. Can't talk about Saudi starving Yemen to death, as it could result in Islamophobia and so on.....

PeggyShippen

Overheal wrote: »

That's a bit of a whitewash. Smallpox arrived with the colonists. Colonists wiped out the natives both through accident and through deliberate action.

Actually many of the North Eastern coastal native Americans had been wiped out by disease from French cod fishermen about 50 to 100 years before colonisation. And yes ultimately settlers outbred and killed some Native Americans but more native Americans were killed by each other even during colonisation. And of course the native Americans murdered many white settlers,women and children and took many as slaves.That fact is fairly well suppressed now because it doesn't fit a narrative. All in all European colonisation was better than many give it credit for. Look at the USA,Canada,Australia,NZ today...all in the top index of living standards.

Overheal

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Actually many of the North Eastern coastal native Americans had been wiped out by disease from French cod fishermen about 50 to 100 years before colonisation. And yes ultimately settlers outbred and killed some Native Americans but more native Americans were killed by each other even during colonisation. And of course the native Americans murdered many white settlers,women and children and took many as slaves.That fact is fairly well suppressed now because it doesn't fit a narrative. All in all European colonisation was better than many give it credit for. Look at the USA,Canada,Australia,NZ today...all in the top index of living standards.

You tried to dress up the fact nicely but there it still is.

And of course the native Americans murdered many white settlers,women and children and took many as slaves.

That had to have happened after the first Thanksgiving I imagine, or there wouldn't have been a first thanksgiving? Perhaps there is an uncomfortable explanation for why Native Americans were at war with the colonists - it might have something to do with the colonists ethnically cleansing them you think?

PeggyShippen

cnocbui wrote: »

I'm an Australian. There are still some aboriginals, but it's not for want of trying, we missed a few. What happened in Australia was apalling, as with most colonisations.

The colonisation of America saw Native Americans systematically murdered on a vast scale. It was nothing less than deliberate genocide. In California, 80% of Native Americans were killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll

In the US, the high estimate of the native American population appears to be 18 million. By 1890 there were 250,000 left. Disease was probably the major cause, but colonisers deliberatly spread disease to NAs to wipe them out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

No serious scholar thinks there was higher than 2 million natives in North America prior to settlers arriving.There was no systematic murder or genocide on either Aboriginal peoples or Native Americans. Some individual atrocities occurred ,notably on Tasmania and in America but disease really put paid to Native Americans .
Murder and warring ,slave taking was a major part in many Native American tribes hence the huge movement of tribes recorded prior to and during the 16th and 17th centuries...this is all outside of white encroachment and settlement.
Theres alot of self hatred in Australia ,same as in most European countries. Its sad really. The UK is fighting back ,not accepting a rewritten version of history.. and of course everywhere Britain was,irish people were . We were colonisers .Ultimately the patronising attitudes liberals have to native Americans and Aboriginal peoples is a modern problem. It does no one any favours to rewrite history and make everyone victims. In Ireland we have awful problems with famine victimhood that leads to anti British attitudes today. The likes of Ukraine,Finland ect had famines but we milk it for all its worth with the Gortha Mor stuff and the memorials everywhere. That one of the miserable bronze waifs on the quays in Dublin is a particularly bad piece of victimhood. Funny how the Brits ,Germans and Spanish don't indulge in this necrophilia

PeggyShippen

conorhal wrote: »

Well it was rediculous hyperbole.

The population of Palestine has quadrupled since 1947, if the Israeli's are intent on a genocide, they're doing a piss poor job if it.

It's like the Live Aid...what's the population of Ethiopia now...80 million and climbing.. I think your right the population of 'Palestine' is at least 4 times higher if not more..The old 'genocide' stuff that is thrown around is laughable really. If there's any real ethnic cleansing in the world it's in China but they are communist so they won't get criticism from the Irish left.

PeggyShippen

PeggyShippen wrote: »

No serious scholar thinks there was higher than 2 million natives in North America prior to settlers arriving.There was no systematic murder or genocide on either Aboriginal peoples or Native Americans. Some individual atrocities occurred ,notably on Tasmania and in America but disease really put paid to Native Americans .
Murder and warring ,slave taking was a major part in many Native American tribes hence the huge movement of tribes recorded prior to and during the 16th and 17th centuries...this is all outside of white encroachment and settlement.
Theres alot of self hatred in Australia ,same as in most European countries. Its sad really. The UK is fighting back ,not accepting a rewritten version of history.. and of course everywhere Britain was,irish people were . We were colonisers .Ultimately the patronising attitudes liberals have to native Americans and Aboriginal peoples is a modern problem. It does no one any favours to rewrite history and make everyone victims. In Ireland we have awful problems with famine victimhood that leads to anti British attitudes today. The likes of Ukraine,Finland ect had famines but we milk it for all its worth with the Gortha Mor stuff and the memorials everywhere. That one of the miserable bronze waifs on the quays in Dublin is a particularly bad piece of victimhood. Funny how the Brits ,Germans and Spanish don't indulge in this necrophilia

Finland has a good few memorials to their famine, and it's still part of the local history, I can't speak for what may or may not be in the Ukraine as I haven't been there but fairly sure that a search might pull up something.

As for the rest of your post your showing again and again that you don't know what you're talking about.

Overheal

PeggyShippen wrote: »

No serious scholar thinks there was higher than 2 million natives in North America prior to settlers arriving.

No True Scotsman fallacy; also, not true.

"Research by some scholars provides population estimates of the pre-contact Americas to be as high as 112 million in 1492, while others estimate the population to have been as low as eight million. In any case, the native population declined to less than six million by 1650."

https://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/0289.htm#:~:text=Denevan%20writes%20that%2C%20%22The%20discovery,have%20been%20as%20low%20as

Please substantiate how you felt right to make the above claim, what is your source?

There was no systematic murder or genocide on either Aboriginal peoples or Native Americans

Arguing a negative, logically pointless.

Some individual atrocities occurred ,notably on Tasmania and in America but disease really put paid to Native Americans .
Murder and warring ,slave taking was a major part in many Native American tribes hence the huge movement of tribes recorded prior to and during the 16th and 17th centuries...this is all outside of white encroachment and settlement.

If we accept that North America was populated by Native Americans, millions, in tribes who both engaged in trade, and tribal warfare, slave taking, etc. - what does this have to do with colonists wiping the majority of the standing population out and subjugating the remainders into preservations?

tayto lover

PeggyShippen wrote: »

It's like the Live Aid...what's the population of Ethiopia now...80 million and climbing.. I think your right the population of 'Palestine' is at least 4 times higher if not more..The old 'genocide' stuff that is thrown around is laughable really. If there's any real ethnic cleansing in the world it's in China but they are communist so they won't get criticism from the Irish left.

This old “left” bullshyt again.

I don’t consider myself left or right but instead I try to point out wrong doing and crimes. Israel is guilty of both even when not being attacked by Hamas. Israel created the violence in Hamas in my view as they had started life as a charitable and community based organisation.
When you beat an animal don’t be surprised when it bites or kicks you back.

Mimon

PeggyShippen wrote: »

It's like the Live Aid...what's the population of Ethiopia now...80 million and climbing.. I think your right the population of 'Palestine' is at least 4 times higher if not more..The old 'genocide' stuff that is thrown around is laughable really. If there's any real ethnic cleansing in the world it's in China but they are communist so they won't get criticism from the Irish left.

What you are rattling on about is pretty twisted

PeggyShippen

Overheal wrote: »

No True Scotsman fallacy; also, not true.

"Research by some scholars provides population estimates of the pre-contact Americas to be as high as 112 million in 1492, while others estimate the population to have been as low as eight million. In any case, the native population declined to less than six million by 1650."

https://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/0289.htm#:~:text=Denevan%20writes%20that%2C%20%22The%20discovery,have%20been%20as%20low%20as

Please substantiate how you felt right to make the above claim, what is your source?



Arguing a negative, logically pointless.



If we accept that North America was populated by Native Americans, millions, in tribes who both engaged in trade, and tribal warfare, slave taking, etc. - what does this have to do with colonists wiping the majority of the standing population out and subjugating the remainders into preservations?

The settlers didn't wipe out the majority of the standing population. It didn't happen.

Overheal

PeggyShippen wrote: »

The settlers didn't wipe out the majority of the standing population. It didn't happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_of_Native_Americans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:California_genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Forced_migrations_of_Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

The problem with arguing a negative is that all it takes is the slightest nudging with contradictory information to burst into thin air.

PeggyShippen

tayto lover wrote: »

This old “left” bullshyt again.

I don’t consider myself left or right but instead I try to point out wrong doing and crimes. Israel is guilty of both even when not being attacked by Hamas. Israel created the violence in Hamas in my view as they had started life as a charitable and community based organisation.
When you beat an animal don’t be surprised when it bites or kicks you back.

Hamas are a charity like the IRA are civil rights campaigners. I dont think all this helps. Hamas are a serious roadblock to peace. They kill dissenters and LGBT and anyone that doesn't agree with them.

PeggyShippen

Overheal wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_of_Native_Americans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:California_genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Forced_migrations_of_Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

The problem with arguing a negative is that all it takes is the slightest nudging with contradictory information to burst into thin air.

There's many massacres of European settlers by Native Americans. Women and children raped and butchered. Its all recorded. And quoting Wikipedia is like something a first year secondary school kid would do..

Odhinn

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Hamas are a charity like the IRA are civil rights campaigners. I dont think all this helps. Hamas are a serious roadblock to peace. They kill dissenters and LGBT and anyone that doesn't agree with them.

There was no peace and freedom from colonisation in Gaza between 1967 and the 1980's when Hamas didn't exist. There is no peace and freedom from colonisation in the West Bank, even though its (nominally) governed by Fatah.

cnocbui

PeggyShippen wrote: »

No serious scholar thinks there was higher than 2 million natives in North America prior to settlers arriving.There was no systematic murder or genocide on either Aboriginal peoples or Native Americans. Some individual atrocities occurred ,notably on Tasmania and in America but disease really put paid to Native Americans .
Murder and warring ,slave taking was a major part in many Native American tribes hence the huge movement of tribes recorded prior to and during the 16th and 17th centuries...this is all outside of white encroachment and settlement.
Theres alot of self hatred in Australia ,same as in most European countries. Its sad really. The UK is fighting back ,not accepting a rewritten version of history.. and of course everywhere Britain was,irish people were . We were colonisers .Ultimately the patronising attitudes liberals have to native Americans and Aboriginal peoples is a modern problem. It does no one any favours to rewrite history and make everyone victims. In Ireland we have awful problems with famine victimhood that leads to anti British attitudes today. The likes of Ukraine,Finland ect had famines but we milk it for all its worth with the Gortha Mor stuff and the memorials everywhere. That one of the miserable bronze waifs on the quays in Dublin is a particularly bad piece of victimhood. Funny how the Brits ,Germans and Spanish don't indulge in this necrophilia

There were organised 'abo' hunts by station owners as recently as perhaps the early 50's, and that was told to me by the matriarch of a very significnt station owning family. British troops used to bury aboriginies in the ground so only their head was exposed, then they used to have friendly competitions to see who could detach the head from the body with the fewest kicks.Keep on white-washing, I'm sure it makes you feel more comfortable.

An assertion of 2 million native americans is beyond risible:

While it is difficult to determine exactly how many Natives lived in North America before Columbus,[9] estimates range from 7 million[10] people to a high of 18 million.[11] Historian David Stannard estimates that the extermination of indigenous peoples took the lives of 100 million people: "...the total extermination of many American Indian peoples and the near-extermination of others, in numbers that eventually totaled close to 100,000,000.". [12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

Overheal

PeggyShippen wrote: »

There's many massacres of European settlers by Native Americans. Women and children raped and butchered. Its all recorded.

While true, what is the relevance? This doesn't actually negate any fact I just demonstrated. Nothing about this statement contradicts Europeans wiping out the vast majority of the natives. It's merely a pivot from "this never happened" to "they deserved it."

And quoting Wikipedia is like something a first year secondary school kid would do..

Argumentum ad hominem. Academia has well defined reasons for not citing wikipedia, this however is a discussion forum. It's not inspiring much confidence either that you yourself haven't linked to a single source of information in your posts, even when arguing fact-positive. Where are your sources for the statement, "No serious scholar thinks there was higher than 2 million natives in North America prior to settlers arriving?" At least a first yr secondary school kid might think to back up his statement.