Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Mimon

Mimon wrote: »

It's not whataboutery it's a direct comparison of what two colonial powers have ruthlessly done to justify their murdering of civilians.

History is not kind to the British for this murder spree and won't be to the Israelis for their latest one. You need to have a good long think about the kind of people you are backing here.

Who am I "backing".
FFS Just because I've a different view, doesn't mean we're enemies. Is that how you view the world?

Condemning targeting of children is wrong. Using children as combatants is wrong. My problem is I see wrongs on both sides. I'm not so biased, I'm unable to see how "my side" might be wrong.

I might need to spell this out.
Do you want me to condemn the Israelis?
Absolutely. No problem, what they're at is wrong.

PeggyShippen

Odhinn wrote: »

What are your views on the settlements/colonies in the occupied territories?

Well they arent sustainable as they are. Its an awful mish mash of outposts and housing estates on hills surrounded by Palestians. Iv been all over the West Bank, Nablus ,Ramallah and everywhere in between. I had a great dinner in a Christian Palestians house one day...Chicken in a big vat of Rice. I was stuffed.
In all honesty Israel needs to A. Either annex the whole West Bank properly and give the Palestians an equal vote or else join up the Settler settlements as they are and link them with roads and let the Palestians have their state...obviously do a rail and road link to Gaza. Tell em take it or leave it. There's no other option really. They can't dismantle the settlements that are there..it ll never happen ever. And regarding East Jerusalem, for long term peace I'd speed up what they are doing ...quickly taking over and financially compensating the Arabs until they are gone. Again Iv friends in both communities. Its an opinion im giving and I am biased ..I prefer the democracy that is Israel but the Palestians need something to give them a future..it just won't be Jerusalem or all of the west Bank.. Id give them a good slice of the desert and help them irrigate it ..Kushner was onto something there. There aren't too many alternatives. You box Israel into a corner and they ll expell all the West Bank to Jordan. Dont underestimate them...and that would be a disaster worse than anything the Palestians have experienced before.

Odhinn

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Well they arent sustainable as they are. Its an awful mish mash of outposts and housing estates on hills surrounded by Palestians. Iv been all over the West Bank, Nablus ,Ramallah and everywhere in between. I had a great dinner in a Christian Palestians house one day...Chicken in a big vat of Rice. I was stuffed.
In all honesty Israel needs to A. Either annex the whole West Bank properly and give the Palestians an equal vote or else join up the Settler settlements as they are and link them with roads and let the Palestians have their state...obviously do a rail and road link to Gaza. Tell em take it or leave it. There's no other option really. They can't dismantle the settlements that are there..it ll never happen ever. And regarding East Jerusalem, for long term peace I'd speed up what they are doing ...quickly taking over and financially compensating the Arabs until they are gone. Again Iv friends in both communities. Its an opinion im giving and I am biased ..I prefer the democracy that is Israel but the Palestians need something to give them a future..ait just won't be Jerusalem or l of the west Bank.. id give them a good slice of the desert and help them irrigate it ..

Given its occupation of the West Bank etc, it can't be said to be a democracy, save in the apartheid way South Africa was.

or else join up the Settler settlements as they are and link them with roads and let the Palestians have their state.

This would lead to a number of Palestinian "bantustans" and not a contigous state.

Sand

PeggyShippen wrote: »

In all honesty Israel needs to A. Either annex the whole West Bank properly and give the Palestians an equal vote or else join up the Settler settlements as they are and link them with roads and let the Palestians have their state...obviously do a rail and road link to Gaza. Tell em take it or leave it. There's no other option really.

You're assuming Israel is looking for a sustainable solution that involves Palestinians existing anywhere. Or have any particular need to find a better outcome than what is currently on offer. It is quite clear that with the unquestioned dominance of the USA, Israel can continue the current trend of slowly expanding settlements and driving out the Palestinians. It might take generations, but look how far they have advanced since 1921.

How far will things be advanced by 2121?

Mimon

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Who am I "backing".
FFS Just because I've a different view, doesn't mean we're enemies. Is that how you view the world?

Condemning targeting of children is wrong. Using children as combatants is wrong. My problem is I see wrongs on both sides. I'm not so biased, I'm unable to see how "my side" might be wrong.

I might need to spell this out.
Do you want me to condemn the Israelis?
Absolutely. No problem, what they're at is wrong.

No I don't see you as an enemy for have a different opinion . You seem to want a discussion and don't suffer from any chips on your shoulder unlike some others- looking at you PeggyS :pac:.

Hamas do hide in civilian areas I suppose because they are part of the population but yes also to protect themselves. It's not right but still does not justify killing civilians to get at them. The world should have moved on from this by now , especially countries that espouse democratic and open society ideals.

Like the provos I have little time for Hamas but both are are the direct result of a population being subjugated and turning to people who will defend them.

I was not aware of them actually using children as combatants, unless you can please enlighten me on this?.

Shebean

Excellent news today:

Irish parliament declares Israeli settlements in Palestine amount to annexation
Ireland became the first EU member state to do so after a Sinn Fein motion received cross-party support in the Dail.
https://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/irish-parliament-declares-israeli-settlements-in-palestine-amount-to-annexation-40473978.html

Many more will follow hopefully. It's unfortunate it's taking so long for so called democratic and free countries to acknowledge the obvious.

Shebean

Mimon wrote: »

I was not aware of them actually using children as combatants, unless you can please enlighten me on this?.

How else can they justify killing children? I'm sure hamas are using Canadian Journalists and first responders too :rolleyes:

Overheal

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

*No they're not.*

Yea, they are. The United States insures it.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Yea, they are. The United States insures it.

Sure we're here criticising them.

Tony EH

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Sure we're here criticising them.

I'm sure that'll have a mighty effect. :pac:

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

I'm sure that'll have a mighty effect. :pac:

True.
But better than saying nought

Overheal

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Sure we're here criticising them.

And international pressure? How many countries in the Western Hemisphere have even recognized Palestine as a state?

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

And international pressure? How many countries in the Western Hemisphere have even recognized Palestine as a state?

As with everything Arab/Israeli - its a lot more complex.

The UN position is the two state solution, rejected by some , proposing pie in the sky bi-national unworkable nonsense.

138 nations supported the "non member observer status" resolution* (67/19) , including I'm proud to say, Ireland, essentially recognition of "a" Palestinian state, with actually doing so, and keeping Oslo some way viable, and part of the Palestinian move towards more enhanced membership.

(*against US/Israeli position)

tayto lover

Shebean wrote: »

Excellent news today:



Many more will follow hopefully. It's unfortunate it's taking so long for so called democratic and free countries to acknowledge the obvious.

That was a great first step that was taken yesterday in the Dail.
Hopefully more countries will follow.

wes

Mimon wrote: »

Israel by commiting atrocities unfortunately opens up Jewish people to extremists. This does not negate Israeli war crimes one bit and you are attempting to distract from this.

In terms of this thread this is discussing the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

Bringing in anti semitism to the discussion is an obvious ploy to undermine genuine criticism of Israeli atrocities.

Please don't as everyone still posting regularly here who do not agree with what Israel are doing are certainly not anti semitic and it is offensive to label anyone here as such.

It should be noted that for example the ADL considers this Anti-Semitic:
https://twitter.com/elivalley/status/1397685920841801728?s=20

Also:

The Social Media Pogrom


Twitter will not free Palestine, but it will certainly make the world a more antisemitic place



Idon’t know who crafted the first tweet that simply said “Eve Fartlow,” but whoever it was—bot or human—started a fire. Over the past two weeks, Twitter has been littered with the words “Eve Fartlow.” Every time I tweet, this title is the response I attract, and it is pelted at me irrespective of what I write. Hundreds of trolls, some with blue ticks and some without, just start responding to me “Eve Fartlow” (some people have recently switched it to “Eve Shartlow” but “Eve Fartlow” seems to be the one that sticks).

Now someone saying "Eve Fartlow" is juvenile, but calling it a "Social Media Pogrom" is a bit much.

Shebean

If I were Jewish I'd be pretty pissed at the Israeli propaganda machine using my faith to excuse the actions of their regime.

ChickenDish

Just heard the Israeli ambassador cry on radio about how we are not helping anyone by pointing out their land grabs are wrong and against international law. They don't even try to justify it, they just cry if you point the finger and tell them they are wrong.

The systematic destruction of infrastructure and murder of children isn't intentional - carpet bombing a neighbourhood doesn't constitue targeting civilians - do they think people actually believe the BS or are they just so far gone caring what people think of them

And the old classic, should you condemn our Ctions your anti semitic.

Love how the Israeli ambassador mentioned Ireland is a good friend of Israel - lmfao

namloc1980

Yeah he was pretty weak. But I guess trying to defend the indefensible continually, takes its toll.

Overheal

This topic is so toxic in the US. Someone of my friends made a post upset that Palestinian and Israeli speech only come up in pairs ie. WLM is just anti-BLM and speech in defense of Palestine was seen as only being a response to “Israel matters etc” basically. I wasn’t even addressing that viewpoint though - he said something about antisemitism to which I pointed out the Palestinians are semites. Some self identified Jewish friend of his went off on me accusing me, ultimately, of saying “**** Jews” because I observe that Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed from the West Bank. Everything just fell under the antisemitism banner and she raged at me, tried to engage in ad hominems etc. before the friend blocked me. There is total and irrational hostility to any criticism of Israel you are just immediately demonized and excommunicated.

ChickenDish

Overheal wrote: »

This topic is so toxic in the US. Someone of my friends made a post upset that Palestinian and Israeli speech only come up in pairs ie. WLM is just anti-BLM and speech in defense of Palestine was seen as only being a response to “Israel matters etc” basically. I wasn’t even addressing that viewpoint though - he said something about antisemitism to which I pointed out the Palestinians are semites. Some self identified Jewish friend of his went off on me accusing me, ultimately, of saying “**** Jews” because I observe that Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed from the West Bank. Everything just fell under the antisemitism banner and she raged at me, tried to engage in ad hominems etc. before the friend blocked me. There is total and irrational hostility to any criticism of Israel you are just immediately demonized and excommunicated.

You sound some what surprised by the reaction.....!

Her ilk are the reason why Palestine will eventually ceaae to exist.

I don't hate a huge portion of Israeli's for being Jewish, I hate them for being scumbag murdering bastiches. The only difference between Israel and boko harem, is boko harem use machetes to kill children while Israel use cruise missiles.

Hamas exists because of Israel's policy towards Palestinians, if my children, family or friends where murdered, I'd become radicalised.

Israel could easily take the high ground and garnish international support if they changed there policy towards Palestine, but that will never happen because Israels agenda is to eradicate Palestine.

PeggyShippen

ChickenDish wrote: »

You sound some what surprised by the reaction.....!

Her ilk are the reason why Palestine will eventually ceaae to exist.

I don't hate a huge portion of Israeli's for being Jewish, I hate them for being scumbag murdering bastiches. The only difference between Israel and boko harem, is boko harem use machetes to kill children while Israel use cruise missiles.

Hamas exists because of Israel's policy towards Palestinians, if my children, family or friends where murdered, I'd become radicalised.

Israel could easily take the high ground and garnish international support if they changed there policy towards Palestine, but that will never happen because Israels agenda is to eradicate Palestine.

If the Israelis wanted to 'eradicate' anyone then they would be eradicated. Your post is vile. You 'hate' a huge proportion of Israelis. Your an anti Semite and how uour post has past the moderator is shocking in itself.

Mimon

Overheal wrote: »

This topic is so toxic in the US. Someone of my friends made a post upset that Palestinian and Israeli speech only come up in pairs ie. WLM is just anti-BLM and speech in defense of Palestine was seen as only being a response to “Israel matters etc” basically. I wasn’t even addressing that viewpoint though - he said something about antisemitism to which I pointed out the Palestinians are semites. Some self identified Jewish friend of his went off on me accusing me, ultimately, of saying “**** Jews” because I observe that Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed from the West Bank. Everything just fell under the antisemitism banner and she raged at me, tried to engage in ad hominems etc. before the friend blocked me. There is total and irrational hostility to any criticism of Israel you are just immediately demonized and excommunicated.

Keep fighting the good fight Overheal. You are excellent at arguing your point and you do it in an informed, rational and well balanced way. You obviously won the argument if they resorted to the aul anti semitism card.

Mimon

namloc1980 wrote: »

Yeah he was pretty weak. But I guess trying to defend the indefensible continually, takes its toll.

Was informative when he said that they basically claim the West bank.

Shows they have no interest in peace they just want to take all the land there.
Was trying to justify it through archaeological evidence that it was "their"
land in ancient times.

Holy fk the Celts were in Switzerland and Austria 2000 years ago, doesn't mean Celtic peoples now have a fecking claim on them.

Mimon

PeggyShippen wrote: »

If the Israelis wanted to 'eradicate' anyone then they would be eradicated. Your post is vile. You 'hate' a huge proportion of Israelis. Your an anti Semite and how uour post has past the moderator is shocking in itself.

What's vile here is you throwing out the anti semite jibe instead of trying to rebut his points. They are eradicating them from the West Bank, just doing it inch by inch, settlement by settlement. Gaza is an open air prison camp that is kept impoverished.

wes

Interesting article about the claims of of increased Anti-Semitism:
A Closer Look at the ‘Uptick’ in Antisemitism


The claim is based on information from the ADL. The issue is that the ADL considers Anti-Zionism to be Anti-Semitism.

Some quotes from the article:

While the incidents are aggregated in a single list, they vary widely by type, including everything from anti-Zionist protest chants to vitriolic Facebook comments to swastika graffiti to assault. I analyzed the 43 incidents in the tracker that occurred between May 7th, when Israeli police fired flashbangs and rubber bullets at Palestinian worshippers in the Al Aqsa compound in Jersualem, and May 24th. (Some incidents may since have been added retroactively, since the ADL updates this list continuously.) Of those 43 incidents, seven were cases of violent assault related to Israel/Palestine, including several that have circulated on social media, such as a reported attack on Jews dining at a kosher restaurant in Los Angeles by a group of men who had driven by waving Palestinian flags, and an incident in New York City’s Times Square in which a group of men holding Palestinian flags appeared to beat a Jewish man with a crutch. At least one of the listed incidents, in which a Jewish couple at a Westlake, Ohio pro-Palestine rally were allegedly attacked by protestors, has been disputed online: A Twitter user said they attended the rally in question and that the couple actually showed up to attack protestors with a flagpole. In addition to those seven incidents, one incident of violent assault had no documented connection to the situation in Israel/Palestine.

(One of those incidents of vandalism was the phrase “**** Zionist Israel” written on a building at Bates College; the ADL counts speech targeting Zionists in general as antisemitic.)

Finally, 14 of the incidents stemmed from pro-Palestine rallies, and focused particularly on certain chants or signs. Three entries recorded explicitly anti-Jewish signs or chants, like a sign in Miami that read “Jesus was Palestinian and you killed him too!” But five were signs or chants that might be more accurately described as anti-Zionist, like the message “Zionism is racism. Abolish Israel.” The ADL has long considered such statements antisemitic: On its website, it says that criticism of Israel crosses into antisemitism when “Israel is denied the right to exist as a Jewish state and equal member of the global community,” and it describes anti-Zionism as “a prejudice against the Jewish movement for self-determination and the right of the Jewish people to a homeland in the State of Israel.” But other commentators argue that Zionism is a political ideology—and the state of Israel a political formation—that is fair game for harsh criticism, the same way that people might refer to the United States of America as a racist state or call for its abolition.

An additional five incidents culled from pro-Palestinian protests were chants and signs which included comparisons of Zionism or Israel to Nazism. This rhetoric can be uncomfortable for Jews but is not universally considered antisemitic—some Israeli officials have criticized political tendencies and military actions in the country as reminiscent of certain policies from Nazi Germany.

wes

Mimon wrote: »

What's vile here is you throwing out the anti semite jibe instead of trying to rebut his points. They are eradicating them from the West Bank, just doing it inch by inch, settlement by settlement. Gaza is an open air prison camp that is kept impoverished.

When people know they haven't a leg to stand on, they resort to that kind of nonsensical smears.

o1s1n

PeggyShippen wrote: »

If the Israelis wanted to 'eradicate' anyone then they would be eradicated. Your post is vile. You 'hate' a huge proportion of Israelis. Your an anti Semite and how uour post has past the moderator is shocking in itself.

No they wouldn't because then people would see their regime for what it is and call them out on it.

Trick is to do it slowly, then you can come up with excuses which a lot of people like you will buy.

Tony EH

"Antisemite" is just meaningless now. It's become an overstretched slur well past any reasonable elasticity. Anyone or anything can be pointed at and called "antisemitic" on the most flimsiest of bases.

It'll get that it's so overused that one day people will simply ignore it.

tayto lover

PeggyShippen wrote: »

If the Israelis wanted to 'eradicate' anyone then they would be eradicated. Your post is vile. You 'hate' a huge proportion of Israelis. Your an anti Semite and how uour post has past the moderator is shocking in itself.

They are eradicating the Palestinian people from areas they want.
Throwing them out of their homes and giving their property to settlers is just that.
What would you call it?

paulaa

PeggyShippen wrote: »

If the Israelis wanted to 'eradicate' anyone then they would be eradicated. Your post is vile. You 'hate' a huge proportion of Israelis. Your an anti Semite and how uour post has past the moderator is shocking in itself.