Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Signore Fancy Pants

Overheal wrote: »

I do appreciate British punditry, no fear in cutting off bull**** at the heel.

However, I was hoping for a clear response to why they cracked down on Muslims during Ramadan? If anyone knows

I'm sure you are aware of all this but just for others who are not.

While there is daily conflict between Palestinians and Israeli security forces, the recent escalation in tensions and kinetic activity is not from a single event.

The hostilities at al-Aqsa Mosque were a combination of hatred between both parties, religion and timing.

Religion:
Ramadan is ongoing, arguably the most holy night in Ramadan and indeed in the annual Islamic calendar, was on 08 May, Leilat al-Qadr. This is the night that celebrates the physical word of Allah, when the Angel Gabriel presented the Quaran to the Prophet Mohammed. The night itself believes that Angels decent to Earth to spread peace.

Thousands of Muslim worshippers travelled to 'Haram al-Sharif' to pray on this occasion, however, a sizeable convoy of busses were denied entry by Israeli security forces to the holy site. So, Muslims took off on foot.

Timing:
This occured while many Jewish worshippers arrived to the same location, known as 'Temple Mount', ahead of their annual celebration known as 'Jerusalem Day' on 10 May. This particular site is a holy focal point for a number of religious denominations, and is a tinder box at this time of year.

This particular Israeli celebration marks the anniversary of 1967 war when Jews took control of the Old City Jerusalem...kicking the Palestinians out.

Ramadan, historically supports acts of Jihad against those who are against the Muslim faith.

The recent Israeli Supreme Court direction to evict Palestinians from the east Jerusalem neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah, has provided increased hostility against both parties.

The acts of attempted illegal evictions and the symbolism attached to "Jerusalem Day", heighten by Ramadan and Israels curtailment of Muslim worship on their most holy day, resulted in local protests and clashes.

This has escalated from a local level, to involve Hamas & PIJ and a kinetic response from the Israeli security forces.

Mimon

Hqrry113 wrote: »

I suppose you also believe the Northern Ireland conflict was all about religion, the conflict is territorial not a religious war.

Religion was/is a massive factor in the conflict in the North. It is what kept both sides from integrating with each other thus perpetuating the conflict.

randd1

Hqrry113 wrote: »

I suppose you also believe the Northern Ireland conflict was all about religion, the conflict is territorial not a religious war.

Of course religion has something major to do with it, only a naive fool would think otherwise. This is a much a religious conflict as a territorial one.

And the main foundation of the Northern Ireland conflict was religious bigotry and its associated policies by Unionists that caused it.

Overheal

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

I'm sure you are aware of all this but just for others who are not.

While there is daily conflict between Palestinians and Israeli security forces, the recent escalation in tensions and kinetic activity is not from a single event.

The hostilities at al-Aqsa Mosque were a combination of hatred between both parties, religion and timing.

Religion:
Ramadan is ongoing, arguably the most holy night in Ramadan and indeed in the annual Islamic calendar, was on 08 May, Leilat al-Qadr. This is the night that celebrates the physical word of Allah, when the Angel Gabriel presented the Quaran to the Prophet Mohammed. The night itself believes that Angels decent to Earth to spread peace.

Thousands of Muslim worshippers travelled to 'Haram al-Sharif' to pray on this occasion, however, a sizeable convoy of busses were denied entry by Israeli security forces to the holy site. So, Muslims took off on foot.

Timing:
This occured while many Jewish worshippers arrived to the same location, known as 'Temple Mount', ahead of their annual celebration known as 'Jerusalem Day' on 10 May. This particular site is a holy focal point for a number of religious denominations, and is a tinder box at this time of year.

This particular Israeli celebration marks the anniversary of 1967 war when Jews took control of the Old City Jerusalem...kicking the Palestinians out.

Ramadan, historically supports acts of Jihad against those who are against the Muslim faith.

The recent Israeli Supreme Court direction to evict Palestinians from the east Jerusalem neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah, has provided increased hostility against both parties.

The acts of attempted illegal evictions and the symbolism attached to "Jerusalem Day", heighten by Ramadan and Israels curtailment of Muslim worship on their most holy day, resulted in local protests and clashes.

This has escalated from a local level, to involve Hamas & PIJ and a kinetic response from the Israeli security forces.

That washes over the question: at what point did IDF decide to violently crack down on mosque goers? If we have established everyone knows this is a tinderbox, why bring the flamethrower?

Hqrry113

Mimon wrote: »

Religion was/is a massive factor in the conflict in the North. It is what kept both sides from integrating with each other thus perpetuating the conflict.

The only part religion played in the conflict in the north was an indicator of your support or non support for British rule.

namloc1980

Hqrry113 wrote: »

Nothing to do with religion, if you have no clue what you're talking about it's best to say nothing at all.

The Israeli state uses biblical and religious historicism as the basis for eviction of Palestinians and the settlement of Palestinian lands. But yeah, it's got nothing to do with religion.

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

The Israeli state uses biblical and religious historicism as the basis for eviction of Palestinians and the settlement of Palestinian lands. But yeah, it's got nothing to do with religion.

God is an estate agent to these people. Pity he didn't give them deeds unlike the Palistinians who have the actual deeds to land stolen from them

Greyfox

Hqrry113 wrote: »

Nothing to do with religion, if you have no clue what you're talking about it's best to say nothing at all.

Thats like saying people working from home has nothing to do with the Corona virus, religion is at the very centre of the conflict.

The Hound Gone Wild

I doubt there's an Israeli alive who doesn't have an ansestor buried in a mass grave in Eastern Europe somewhere.

How they can then go on to support an ethnic cleansing of a similarly disenfranchised people is something I will never understand.

The Hound Gone Wild

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

How they can then go on to support an ethnic cleansing of a similarly disenfranchised people is something I will never understand.

Appeasement.

Which funnily enough is one of these "Never again" concepts to come out of WWII

Overheal

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

I doubt there's an Israeli alive who doesn't have an ansestor buried in a mass grave in Eastern Europe somewhere.

How they can then go on to support an ethnic cleansing of a similarly disenfranchised people is something I will never understand.

Revenge mentality. Eye for an eye.

ypres5

Rezident wrote: »

Abusing the men, women and children who were murdered by the Nazis in concentration camps is, I think, the worst thing I have ever seen on this site. What is wrong with you?



How are you so hateful that you can attack the people murdered by the Nazis?

Because the faux concern about Palestine is just a smokescreen for these people to spout their medieval hatred and bile against Jews, as can be seen with the 'jewnited states' comments and calling people killed in the Holocaust cowards. It's disgusting and the threads rampant with it

Signore Fancy Pants

Overheal wrote: »

That washes over the question: at what point did IDF decide to violently crack down on mosque goers? If we have established everyone knows this is a tinderbox, why bring the flamethrower?

I didn't wash over anything, I'm trying to provide an element of context for those who are unaware.

You would have to ask the Israeli security forces if you want a firm answer as to why they did not show restraint at al-Aqsa.

If you want my interpretation from unconfirmed open source, it appear that the Israeli security forces presence after muslim prayers, illicitated a response from Palestinian Muslims...i.e the throwing of bottles and stone....standard S.O.P and a daily occurrence.

That's when the Israelis breached the Mosque.

Also, yes it's a religious and 'historical conflict' tinderbox at this time. Especially in the context of the Israeli Defence Forces state of military readiness in preparation for their planned month of large scale military exercises.

Strategically planned for maximum availability of troops and in the context of the upcoming Palestinian commemoration of 'Nakba Day' this coming Friday.

Nakba Day for those unfamiliar, is the Palestinian commemoration of the displacement of Palestinians in 1948, the creation of the state of Israel and the demise of Palestine.

All these things together....is the "why" you are looking for.....or simply, the continued oppression of Palestinians by Israel and the resistance to oppression by the Palestinians.

J Mysterio

tara2k wrote: »

Read this thread. Israel was attacked, and it acted in self defense. People seem to have a problem with that.

https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1391830591860101124?s=20

The Hound Gone Wild

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

I doubt there's an Israeli alive who doesn't have an ansestor buried in a mass grave in Eastern Europe somewhere.

How they can then go on to support an ethnic cleansing of a similarly disenfranchised people is something I will never understand.

It's precisely BECAUSE of the holocaust that the Israeli's have a sharpened sense of the fatalistic side of life. Similar to how Eastern Europeans tend to have little tolerance for immigration from the 3rd world, because they retain a collective memory of being oppressed under communism that they value their freedom and independence too much to just throw it away easily.

In Ireland we haven't had to fight for anything in 100 years. Every living person in Ireland has grown up in a more or less free society without direct threats to its sovereignty. We don't have a similar experience to Israel which is surrounded on all sides by incredibly hostile neighbours who would destroy them if they could.

You can be sure if Palestine got statehood that they wouldn't be inviting migrants from sub-saharan Africa for example, because it would undermine the solidarity and identity of what they are currently fighting for.

mikeym

Whats the answer?

Personally I Cant see a peace deal.

And the response from the Western Nations and The UN is pathetic.

Nobody seems gives a shíte about human life regardless of Religion or Nationality.

o1s1n

Deleted User wrote: »

It's precisely BECAUSE of the holocaust that the Israeli's have a sharpened sense of the fatalistic side of life. Similar to how Eastern Europeans tend to have little tolerance for immigration from the 3rd world, because they retain a collective memory of being oppressed under communism that they value their freedom and independence too much to just throw it away easily.

In Ireland we haven't had to fight for anything in 100 years. Every living person in Ireland has grown up in a more or less free society without direct threats to its sovereignty. We don't have a similar experience to Israel which is surrounded on all sides by incredibly hostile neighbours who would destroy them if they could.

You can be sure if Palestine got statehood that they wouldn't be inviting migrants from sub-saharan Africa for example, because it would undermine the solidarity and identity of what they are currently fighting for.

The abused becomes to abuser, it's nothing new.

You think they might just notice the vicious irony to it all.

Odhinn

mikeym wrote: »

Whats the answer?

Personally I Cant see a peace deal.

And the response from the Western Nations and The UN is pathetic.

Nobody seems gives a shíte about human life regardless of Religion or Nationality.

The US blocks UN sponsored peace talks, taking the role of arbiter to itself. With that scenario the Palestinians are essentially shafted from the get go.

Hqrry113

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's precisely BECAUSE of the holocaust that the Israeli's have a sharpened sense of the fatalistic side of life. Similar to how Eastern Europeans tend to have little tolerance for immigration from the 3rd world, because they retain a collective memory of being oppressed under communism that they value their freedom and independence too much to just throw it away easily.

In Ireland we haven't had to fight for anything in 100 years. Every living person in Ireland has grown up in a more or less free society without direct threats to its sovereignty. We don't have a similar experience to Israel which is surrounded on all sides by incredibly hostile neighbours who would destroy them if they could.

You can be sure if Palestine got statehood that they wouldn't be inviting migrants from sub-saharan Africa for example, because it would undermine the solidarity and identity of what they are currently fighting for.

You seem to have a short memory, it's only 24 years since in part of Ireland it was illegal to have an Irish flag, was the most militarised zone on the planet, was riddled with landmines and had a secret society that was known around the world as one of if not the most sophisticated and effective guerilla armies in the world.

Frank Bullitt

randd1 wrote: »

People can become fatigued by the constant killing, especially when we’re somewhat detached from it being so far away.

I don't think that is really an excuse TBH.

Weather it happens often or not is besides the point. Affirmative action must happen at this stage, we are witnessing a massacre on innocent people.

o1s1n

o1s1n wrote: »

The abused becomes to abuser, it's nothing new.

You think they might just notice the vicious irony to it all.

Israel has been attacked literally from Day 1 of its existence. Personally after WW2 I have some sympathy and think they deserve a country of their own. They've been invaded 3 times since their founding in 1948. They are not the abuser.

They've been defending themselves since 1948, and frankly I don't blame them. Jews have only one religious sacred ground, Jerusalem. There is literally nowhere else for them. Muslims, by contrast, have mecca in Saudi Arabia as the centre of their universe. They have a mosque in Jerusalem but it's importance has been elevated through propaganda so that people think it's as equally important to them as the Temple Mount it to Jews.

Signore Fancy Pants

mikeym wrote: »

Whats the answer?

Personally I Cant see a peace deal.

And the response from the Western Nations and The UN is pathetic.

Nobody seems gives a shíte about human life regardless of Religion or Nationality.

Recognition, political discourse, time and compromise. None of which is going to happen unfortunately. It's a ****ty vicious cycle.

Hatred between both parties at the individual level is so ingrained throughout their respective societies. While not felt by each individual, both sides maintain that they are the victim and any meaningful concessions would not be widely adopted.

The only future is a complete de-escalation of hostilities achieved by the relaxation of blockades and the willingness by all to co-exist as best as possible, despite religious and historical differences.

The status quo is the best that can be hoped for at the moment, with no escalation.

An international response will never be effective unless both parties make concessions.

Hqrry113

Hqrry113 wrote: »

You seem to have a short memory, it's only 24 years since in part of Ireland it was illegal to have an Irish flag, was the most militarised zone on the planet, was riddled with landmines and had a secret society that was known around the world as one of if not the most sophisticated and effective guerilla armies in the world.

The overwhelming majority of people in Ireland had little to no experience of life in the Troubles. I'm primarily referring to the Republic of Ireland. But since you brought up NI, this also proves my point. Compare people's views on the poppy in the Bogside in Derrry, to people in Foxrock in Dublin. The Bogsiders know all too well about the dark side to British militarism, whereas people in Foxrock would have an altogether more agnostic or even positive view of the poppy.

Drexel_3

It honestly just feels like nothing will ever change over there.

Lmkrnr

Drexel_3 wrote: »

It honestly just feels like nothing will ever change over there.

The only way things will change is if the USA say so. Simple as that. Now we know how much Jewish influence is in the lobby groups over in the states so its hard to see any changes. Even the Saudi's are in the Jews pocket's. Some day the Jews will slip up and they will pay. You can be sure a large % of the world would say it was coming.

Samsonsmasher

namloc1980 wrote: »

So civilians are fair game because of Hamas. No distinction between them in what effectively amounts to collective punishment. What a disgusting viewpoint to hold.

And evicting people from their homes is justified on the basis of some historic status of Jerusalem. Yet another disgusting viewpoint.

Go to Israel then and tell them to stop and see how that works..

namloc1980

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Go to Israel then and tell them to stop and see how that works..

How infantile. You can't even defend your awful point of view so you're just resorting to silliness now. How very predictable.

MeMen2_MoRi_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's precisely BECAUSE of the holocaust that the Israeli's have a sharpened sense of the fatalistic side of life. Similar to how Eastern Europeans tend to have little tolerance for immigration from the 3rd world, because they retain a collective memory of being oppressed under communism that they value their freedom and independence too much to just throw it away easily.

In Ireland we haven't had to fight for anything in 100 years. Every living person in Ireland has grown up in a more or less free society without direct threats to its sovereignty. We don't have a similar experience to Israel which is surrounded on all sides by incredibly hostile neighbours who would destroy them if they could.

You can be sure if Palestine got statehood that they wouldn't be inviting migrants from sub-saharan Africa for example, because it would undermine the solidarity and identity of what they are currently fighting for.

Sounds like you've brothers in arms in the Palestinians for your fight against immigration..

moceri

Throwing Grenades at an Ambulance is wrong in any situation.
https://www.instagram.com/p/COxwDYdpSHU

Signore Fancy Pants

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Israel has been attacked literally from Day 1 of its existence. Personally after WW2 I have some sympathy and think they deserve a country of their own. They've been invaded 3 times since their founding in 1948. They are not the abuser.

They've been defending themselves since 1948, and frankly I don't blame them. Jews have only one religious sacred ground, Jerusalem. There is literally nowhere else for them. Muslims, by contrast, have mecca in Saudi Arabia as the centre of their universe. They have a mosque in Jerusalem but it's importance has been elevated through propaganda so that people think it's as equally important to them as the Temple Mount it to Jews.

I'm not quite sure you understand the religious significance of this location to all 3 faiths.

Suggesting that Muslims should relinquish this holy site due to having others is bananas, having "a Mosque in Jerusalem" is grossly understating it's significance.

I'm not in the least bit religious but whatever your suggestion is, it's ba.na.nas.