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Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

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    #3332
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A lot of people who are anti-Israel here i think have a view of the Palestinians who are these innocent little lambs who just want to be left in peace. It is a nice narrative to believe in, good versus evil, classic and simplistic. Humans love an underdog story. But I think it is too simplistic. The Middle East is a dark place with a lot of tribal undercurrents and resentments. To me the Palestinians are not that much different from the rest. I believe the majority of them despise the Jews and would love to see them all killed. I think Israel are being intolerant of the intolerant. I am ignoring the settlements because I do disagree with that policy. There are no settlements in Gaza though.


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    #3333
    Lucy8080
    Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A lot of people who are anti-Israel here i think have a view of the Palestinians who are these innocent little lambs who just want to be left in peace. It is a nice narrative to believe in, good versus evil, classic and simplistic. Humans love an underdog story. But I think it is too simplistic. The Middle East is a dark place with a lot of tribal undercurrents and resentments. To me the Palestinians are not that much different from the rest. I believe the majority of them despise the Jews and would love to see them all killed. I think Israel are being intolerant of the intolerant. I am ignoring the settlements because I do disagree with that policy. There are no settlements in Gaza though.

    You have a belief that the majority of Palestinians despise "the Jews" and would love to see them all killed?


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    #3334
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    You have a belief that the majority of Palestinians despise "the Jews" and would love to see them all killed?

    Yes, I believe a significant proportion of the Palestinians despise the Jews and would prefer the Jews to be driven from the land or killed. This type of tribalist hatred is par for the course in that part of the world.


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    #3335
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,585 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Yes, I believe a significant proportion of the Palestinians despise the Jews and would prefer the Jews to be driven from the land or killed. This type of tribalist hatred is par for the course in that part of the world.

    I'm sure there are many Palestinian people who hate the Jews.

    If your five year old daughter had been blown to pieces while sleeping in her cot or your son blown up while playing football on a beach then I'm sure you would hold hatred in your heart for the regime that ordered those strikes, you would hate the people who fired those missiles/shells and want them dead.

    Not all Palestinian people hate the Jews, not all Jews hate the Palestinians but there is plenty of evidence out there that there are people on both sides of the divide who would happily see the other slaughtered/driven from the land.


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    #3336
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A lot of people who are anti-Israel here i think have a view of the Palestinians who are these innocent little lambs who just want to be left in peace. It is a nice narrative to believe in, good versus evil, classic and simplistic. Humans love an underdog story. But I think it is too simplistic. The Middle East is a dark place with a lot of tribal undercurrents and resentments. To me the Palestinians are not that much different from the rest. I believe the majority of them despise the Jews and would love to see them all killed. I think Israel are being intolerant of the intolerant. I am ignoring the settlements because I do disagree with that policy. There are no settlements in Gaza though.


    palestinian civilians are innocent.
    palestinian militants aren't so, but have nothing in terms of the crimes committed by israel.
    whatever about being left in peace which i would imagine many there do want, they would like for their land not to be stolen, homes stolen and all else stolen to give to israely settler terror gangs so that the state of israel can have an ever expanding border so as to have a super ethno state.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #3337
    MeMen2_MoRi_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,982 ✭✭✭MeMen2_MoRi_


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    A lot of people who are anti-Israel here i think have a view of the Palestinians who are these innocent little lambs who just want to be left in peace. It is a nice narrative to believe in, good versus evil, classic and simplistic. Humans love an underdog story. But I think it is too simplistic. The Middle East is a dark place with a lot of tribal undercurrents and resentments. To me the Palestinians are not that much different from the rest. I believe the majority of them despise the Jews and would love to see them all killed. I think Israel are being intolerant of the intolerant. I am ignoring the settlements because I do disagree with that policy. There are no settlements in Gaza though.

    Remind us all again why this flash point kicked off?

    Displacement, protests, arrests, attacks on people worshipping.. there's also no armed resistance else where that is why they're being driven from their homes so the retaliation comes from the armed factions in Gaza


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    #3338
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,335 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes, I believe a significant proportion of the Palestinians despise the Jews and would prefer the Jews to be driven from the land or killed. This type of tribalist hatred is par for the course in that part of the world.

    See, this is the problem with people like you. You simply cannot see, want to see, or understand any kind of complexities.

    The flip side to your simplistic belief is that a "significant proportion of Jews despise the Palestinians and would prefer the Palestinians to be driven from the land or killed"

    The salient point is that one of those groups keeps another in an open air concentration camp, while gradually stealing what's left of their land to steal. It's the Jews that are driving out the Palestinians from their land and killing them. They have stolen and continue to steal Palestinian land.

    There's no justification for that.


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    #3339
    joseywhales
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Why do we refer to them as Jews? The israelis may be Jewish but they do not represent Jews. They want to, they position themselves as the Jewish state. I was born catholic, if france, traditionally a Catholic state, started to intern,persecute and bomb Muslims, I would be pissed if it was reported that the Catholics were ordering air strikes on Muslim children. What gives a civil authority such as Israel the right to represent all Jews any more than France represents Catholics?


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    #3340
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,586 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Tony EH wrote: »
    See, this is the problem with people like you. You simply cannot see, want to see, or understand any kind of complexities.

    The flip side to your simplistic belief is that a "significant proportion of Jews despise the Palestinians and would prefer the Palestinians to be driven from the land or killed"

    The salient point is that one of those groups keeps another in an open air concentration camp, while gradually stealing what's left of their land to steal. It's the Jews that are driving out the Palestinians from their land and killing them. They have stolen and continue to steal Palestinian land.

    There's no justification for that.

    Classic subtle anti-semitism in the above. "It's the Jews." No, it's the Israeli government.


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    #3341
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,586 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    joseywhales wrote: »
    What gives a civil authority such as Israel the right to represent all Jews any more than France represents Catholics?

    Nothing. The Israeli government doesn't speak for all Jewry. This is a big difference than Catholicism, for whom the Pope's statements are final.


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    #3342
    joseywhales
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Nothing. The Israeli government doesn't speak for all Jewry. This is a big difference than Catholicism, for whom the Pope's statements are final.

    Yes maybe in 1100 but the reality is that the pope does not represent those baptized as catholic many of whom no longer believe in god let alone catholic doctrine.


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    #3343
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Classic subtle anti-semitism in the above. "It's the Jews." No, it's the Israeli government.


    factually incorrect, no antisemitism in his post.
    while he does mention the jews, it's obvious that he is not stating all jews are responsible, but rather that currently it is a jewish state and it's government and thus some jewish people, who are engaging in the criminality as mentioned.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #3344
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,586 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    end of the road wrote: »
    factually incorrect, no antisemitism in his post.
    while he does mention the jews, it's obvious that he is not stating all jews are responsible, but rather that currently it is a jewish state and it's government and thus some jewish people, who are engaging in the criminality as mentioned.


    You're missing the subtlety. Equating the behavior of the Israeli government, which comprises members of all sorts of religious groups, to "The Jews" is basically pointing the finger of hate at the Jews alone. You've now said, "Some Jewish people." It's not a prerequisite to be Jewish to participate in Israeli government actions or behaviors, even to be a politician in Israel.


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    #3345
    LMHC
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭LMHC


    This anti Semitism card is well ran its course.

    Do we really need to educate people on Judaism and Zionism.

    Majority of Jews(World wide ) are good people, Zionists should be taken on a day trip to Belsen.


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    #3346
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Igotadose wrote: »
    You're missing the subtlety. Equating the behavior of the Israeli government, which comprises members of all sorts of religious groups, to "The Jews" is basically pointing the finger of hate at the Jews alone. You've now said, "Some Jewish people." It's not a prerequisite to be Jewish to participate in Israeli government actions or behaviors, even to be a politician in Israel.




    there is no suttlety, no antisemitism as you claim.
    tony's post was very clear that the israely government alone are responsible for the criminality.

    the nation state law states that one must be jewish to be able to take part in the israely state and have rights.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #3347
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Mimon


    LMHC wrote: »
    This anti Semitism card is well ran its course.

    Do we really need to educate people on Judaism and Zionism.

    Majority of Jews(World wide ) are good people, Zionists should be taken on a day trip to Belsen.

    Why did you have to throw that last line in?

    Unreal, are you trolling or maybe a bot to make the anti Israelis side of the argument here look associate with this hateful nonsense?


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    #3348
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,585 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Mimon wrote: »
    Why did you have to throw that last line in?

    Unreal, are you trolling or maybe a bot to make the anti Israelis side of the argument here look associate with this hateful nonsense?

    It's just another re reg, post has been reported so it'll be gone soon.


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    #3349
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,586 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    end of the road wrote: »
    there is no suttlety, no antisemitism as you claim.
    tony's post was very clear that the israely government alone are responsible for the criminality.

    the nation state law states that one must be jewish to be able to take part in the israely state and have rights.

    That latter is an oversimplification, the phrase is 'determination' which is pretty damn vague. Non-Jewish Israelis haven't been disenfranchised by the law. The awful nation-state law is being debated in the Israeli Supreme court (well, it was last December.) I hope they strike it down.


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    #3350
    LMHC
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭LMHC


    Mimon wrote: »
    Why did you have to throw that last line in?

    Unreal, are you trolling or maybe a bot to make the anti Israelis side of the argument here look associate with this hateful nonsense?

    Hateful nonsense? Your right I do hate Zionism.

    I'm not glorifying Nazi atrocities on Jews, but I'd encourage same against those supportive of the Government in Israel and those engaging in a campaign of genocide against the Palestinian people.

    If Israel feels they can eliminate a people but cry foul about what happened in those horrid camps. Is that not double standard.


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    #3351
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    end of the road wrote: »
    the nation state law states that one must be jewish to be able to take part in the israely state and have rights.

    No it doesn't.
    It's far more complicated than that.

    Now equal rights is a different argument.


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    #3352
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,084 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes, I believe a significant proportion of the Palestinians despise the Jews and would prefer the Jews to be driven from the land or killed. This type of tribalist hatred is par for the course in that part of the world.

    WTF? You are describing exactly what Zionist policy is and has always been.

    The proposed policy [of raising the level of public service in the occupied territories] may clash with our intention to encourage emigration from both [Gaza] Strip and Judea and Samaria. Anyone who has practical ideas or proposal to encourage emigration-let him speak up. No idea or proposal is to be dismissed out of hand.
    Moshe Dayan

    The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.
    David Ben-Gurion

    We have no solution... You [Palestinians] shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads.
    Moshe Dayan

    "Using the moral yardstick mentioned by [Moshe Sharett], I must ask: Are [we justified] in opening fire on the [Palestinian] Arabs who cross [the border] to reap the crops they planted in our territory; they, their women, and their children? Will this stand up to moral scrutiny . . .? We shoot at those from among the 200,000 hungry [Palestinian] Arabs who cross the line [to graze their flocks]---- will this stand up to moral review? Arabs cross to collect the grain that they left in the abandoned [term often used by Israelis to describe the ethnically cleansed] villages and we set mines for them and they go back without an arm or a leg. . . . [It may be that this] cannot pass review, but I know no other method of guarding the borders. then tomorrow the State of Israel will have no borders."
    Moshe Dayan

    We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinians] never do return. The old will die and the young will forget,
    David Ben-Gurion

    Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.
    David Ben-Gurion

    The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill: from the Nile to the Euphrates.
    David Ben-Gurion

    Before (the Palestinians) very eyes we are possessing the land and the villages where they and their ancestors have lived We are the generation of colonizers and without the steel helmet and the gun barrel we cannot plant a tree and build a house.
    Moshe Dayan

    Take the American declaration of Independence. It contains no mention of territorial limits. We are not obliged to fix the limits of the State.
    Moshe Dayan

    During the last 100 years our people have been in a process of building up the country and the nation, of expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that we are near the end of the road.
    Moshe Dayan
    https://www.azquotes.com/author/6023-David_Ben_Gurion

    https://www.quotetab.com/quotes/by-moshe-dayan

    And this one is a kicker, explaining perfectly what we have recently seen, which is just a copy of almost every other incident for the last 70 years:
    [Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no — it must — invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...
    Moshe Dayan


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    #3353
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    end of the road wrote: »
    the israely state

    Israeli


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    #3354
    Sue de Nimes
    Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭Sue de Nimes


    joseywhales wrote: »
    Yes maybe in 1100 but the reality is that the pope does not represent those baptized as catholic many of whom no longer believe in god let alone catholic doctrine.

    Catholicism isn't a race.


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    #3355
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Mimon


    LMHC wrote: »
    Hateful nonsense? Your right I do hate Zionism.

    I'm not glorifying Nazi atrocities on Jews, but I'd encourage same against those supportive of the Government in Israel and those engaging in a campaign of genocide against the Palestinian people.

    If Israel feels they can eliminate a people but cry foul about what happened in those horrid camps. Is that not double standard.

    It was totally unnecessary to mention Belsen. You could have made your points without it. Will just give the pro Israeli posters encouragement to use the anti semitism card at all of us who critisise Israel.


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    #3356
    LMHC
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭LMHC


    Mimon wrote: »
    It was totally unnecessary to mention Belsen. You could have made your points without it. Will just give the pro Israeli posters encouragement to use the anti semitism card at all of us who critisise Israel.

    I went too far you're right. Sorry


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    #3357
    xhomelezz
    Registered Users Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    Mimon wrote: »
    It was totally unnecessary to mention Belsen. You could have made your points without it. Will just give the pro Israeli posters encouragement to use the anti semitism card at all of us who critisise Israel.

    I'm sorry, but I don't get this post at all. Mainly watching and reading this thread and educating myself as paula suggested. One poster mentioned Belsen the way he did, oh well stupid way imo. And you responded...the way you did.


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    #3358
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Mimon


    xhomelezz wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but I don't get this post at all. Mainly watching and reading this thread and educating myself as paula suggested. One poster mentioned Belsen the way he did, oh well stupid way imo. And you responded...the way you did.

    Don't get what you are trying to say here? Was trying to say to the poster that it is not on to mention sending people to Belsen for a day trip.

    Not that hard to understand that that sort of talk is not on . It does his objections to Israeli atrocities no favours and will give an opportunity for people who have no legitimate defence to Israeli actions to play the anti semitism card against all of us.


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    #3359
    xhomelezz
    Registered Users Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    Mimon wrote: »
    It was totally unnecessary to mention Belsen. You could have made your points without it. Will just give the pro Israeli posters encouragement to use the anti semitism card at all of us who critisise Israel.

    This. Just as pointless as mentioning Belsen by other poster.


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    #3360
    Philco71
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Philco71





    Watched this earlier. Very moving. I've tried to take in opposite points of view on this thread but in the end to me it comes back to what Gabor Maté says in this video. The truth is out there, its just that not everyone is ready to see it.

    One other thing, actions by the Israeli government deserve nothing but condemnation by all means but its very easy for this to turn into accusations of anti-semitism. There are many noble people like Gabor who are standing up for Palestinian rights. He just happens to be Jewish. Please dont refer to Israeli crimes as 'Jewish'. Thats the trap that a lot of people fall into.


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    #3361
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,443 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That’s a trap Israel wants you to fall into that’s why they’re so hard about being a Jewish Nation State on paper.


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