Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you from the Cathy Newman school of debate?

So what you're saying is the Israelis should roll over and let the Palestinians dance a little jig on their heads? Is that what you're saying?

I don’t know who that is.

Neither argumentum ad hominem, nor reductio ad absurdum move your argument forward. Try again.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Are Israel? They blockade the sea so fishermen cannot earn a.living, they decide what enters Gaza, they recently blocked vaccines from.entering Gaza!

Should the Palestinians just sit back as Israeli settlements expand? Should they just go quietly into the night because a family from New York has decided they want the house they have lived in for fifty years? Would you be a meek kitten and allow this or would you vote for the people who are at least fighting for your right to survival?

Gaza is a seperate territory. There are no settlements being built there. So I think it's necessary to separate the two issues. If rockets were being fired in the West Bank I might understand it more. But from Gaza it simply
a) makes no sense as there are no settlements there.
b) will make no difference to what happens in West Bank
c) will make life much worse from the Gazans by inviting retaliation

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Because Egypt isn’t Bombing children? That might’ve been a clue.

But why are they complicit in this "open air prison" as you would put it? What reason have they to provide zero aid to Gaza while keeping the borders firmly shut?

MeMen2_MoRi_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But why are they complicit in this "open air prison" as you would put it? What reason have they to provide zero aid to Gaza while keeping the borders firmly shut?

Military aid from the US maybe

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But why are they complicit in this "open air prison" as you would put it? What reason have they to provide zero aid to Gaza while keeping the borders firmly shut?

I’m sure they have their reasons, including political pressure from the US and Israel. However they aren’t the lead problem, here. Israel is the one doing the imprisoning and the ethnic cleansing, not Egypt. Obviously you’d love to derail the whole thing to being about Egypt, but it’s not. The Egyptians didn’t bomb 60+ kids last month, Israel did. Hamas didn’t fire rockets at Egypt, either.

For the record though: Israel, not Egypt, built the barrier between Egypt and Gaza. [url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphi_Route[/url]

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

I’m sure they have their reasons, including political pressure from the US and Israel. However they aren’t the lead problem, here. Israel is the one doing the imprisoning and the ethnic cleansing, not Egypt. Obviously you’d love to derail the whole thing to being about Egypt, but it’s not. The Egyptians didn’t bomb 60+ kids last month, Israel did. Hamas didn’t fire rockets at Egypt, either.

For the record though: Israel, not Egypt, built the barrier between Egypt and Gaza. [url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphi_Route[/url]

I'm not saying it's all about Eqypt but it's not right that the one that actually provides food, electricity and healthcare (Israel) while being attacked by rockets is considered the bad guy, and the one who provides jack sh*t while imposing a blockade invokes very amibguous emotions. Why is nobody even one tenth as angry at Egypt as they are at Israel?

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not saying it's all about Eqypt but it's not right that the one that actually provides food, electricity and healthcare (Israel) while being attacked by rockets is considered the bad guy, and the one who provides jack sh*t while imposing a blockade invokes very amibguous emotions. Why is nobody even one tenth as angry at Egypt as they are at Israel?

Still obviously not getting it.

When you decide to imprison an entire people you don’t get kudos for giving them 4 hours of electricity a day.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Still obviously not getting it.

When you decide to imprison an entire people you don’t get kudos for giving them 4 hours of electricity a day.

It's 4 hours more than Egypt gives them. That makes them nicer than Egypt in my books. Egypt is not having rockets fired at it daily.

Have some perspective on things! Why does Israel even bother allowing any electricity? What incentive do they have? If everyone thinks they are nazis anyway, then why the hell do they provide anything to Gaza?

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's 4 hours more than Egypt gives them. That makes them nicer than Egypt in my books. Egypt is not having rockets fired at it daily.

Have some perspective on things! Why does Israel even bother allowing any electricity? What incentive do they have? If everyone thinks they are nazis anyway, then why the hell do they provide anything to Gaza?

Because they bombed Gaza infrastructure to the Stone Age they kind of owe the people of Gaza running water and electricity.

Egypt isn’t an equal partner in this and the false equivocations are just that, another way for people to deflect from ethnic cleansing and child murder carried out by Israel. Israel militarized the Egypt border and for Egypt it was a case of getting land back from Israel (Sinai) in exchange for patrolling their own border without the Israelis. A win win for them.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not saying it's all about Eqypt but it's not right that the one that actually provides food, electricity and healthcare (Israel) while being attacked by rockets is considered the bad guy, and the one who provides jack sh*t while imposing a blockade invokes very amibguous emotions. Why is nobody even one tenth as angry at Egypt as they are at Israel?

Again you're talking as if Israel supplies all of Gaza needs and should be thanked!


Electricity


https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20201029_gaza_electricity_crisis_deepens_summer_2020

Providing the population of the Gaza Strip with a 24/7 power supply requires about 600 megawatts of electricity. Yet the Gaza Strip receives only 180 megawatts — 120 directly from Israel via 10 power lines, and 60 generated by Gaza’s power plant with Qatari-funded fuel provided by Israel. As a result, residents usually receive power in eight-hour rotations: eight hours on and eight hours off. In summer, the power can go off for up to 12 hours.

Israel still controls life in Gaza and cannot shirk its responsibility for this reality. Bombing the power plant 14 years ago and preventing its rehabilitation since has limited its capacity to generate electricity. In addition, Israel hampers vital repairs and upgrades to the power system and forces the authorities to buy fuel from Israel alone.

To make matters worse, Israel withholds fuel from the power plant at will, as a form of collective punishment. On 10 August 2020, at the height of a blistering summer, after militants in Gaza continued to launch incendiary and explosive balloons into Israeli territory, Israel decided to close the crossings with Gaza and stop the fuel supply. Within about a week, on 18 August, the power plant shut down due to lack of fuel. This reduced the power supply to residents to a mere four hours a day. Three weeks later, on 1 September, Israel reopened the crossings and the power supply went back to eight-hour rotations.

Food

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/13/israel-gaza-blockade

The UN agency for Palestinian refugees said today it would have to suspend food distribution in Gaza after Israel blocked humanitarian supplies from entering the strip.

Health care

Israeli airstrikes in the Palestinian territory of Gaza have damaged six hospitals, nine primary health care centres, and a desalination plant that supplies clean water to 250 000 people, the United Nations has reported.1

Gaza’s main covid-19 laboratory and the Palestinian Ministry of Health offices have also been hit,2 and at least two prominent doctors, the internal medicine consultant Ayman Abu Alouf, who was leading the covid-19 team at Al Shifa hospital, and the health ministry neurologist Moeen Al-Aloul, have been killed.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/gaza-cancer-patients-blocked-/2021/05/24/a9ba6c30-bc87-11eb-922a-c40c9774bc48_story.html%3foutputType=amp

patients with urgent medical needs were still waiting Monday for Israel's permission to leave the enclave for surgeries, transplants or cancer treatments 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/2/16/palestinians-say-israel-blocking-shipment-of-vaccines-to-gaza

Israel blocks shipment of Russian Sputnik V vaccine to Gaza

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Because they bombed Gaza infrastructure to the Stone Age they kind of owe the people of Gaza running water and electricity.

Egypt isn’t an equal partner in this and the false equivocations are just that, another way for people to deflect from ethnic cleansing and child murder carried out by Israel. Israel militarized the Egypt border and for Egypt it was a case of getting land back from Israel (Sinai) in exchange for patrolling their own border without the Israelis. A win win for them.

It's not deflection it's an attempt to add perspective. The "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" killed 250 people out of a population of 2m people. That's 0.0125% of the population. Some genocide.

If the situation is as simplistic as you portray, then it would be rational to expect a very open border with Egypt where aid, food, medical supplies etc could be easily given to the "open air prison". I think it's a very good question that needs answering - why does Egypt not allow this? And why do people not care about that? We get that Israel is the big meanie nazi - so why bother trying to change them? Might be worth focussing instead on Eqypt?

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's not deflection it's an attempt to add perspective. The "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" killed 250 people out of a population of 2m people. That's 0.0125% of the population. Some genocide.

If the situation is as simplistic as you portray, then it would be rational to expect a very open border with Egypt where aid, food, medical supplies etc could be easily given to the "open air prison". I think it's a very good question that needs answering - why does Egypt not allow this? And why do people not care about that? We get that Israel is the big meanie nazi - so why bother trying to change them? Might be worth focussing instead on Eqypt?

More attempts to deflect to Egypt.

Tell me is Gaza even allowed to buy oil etc from Egypt or must they get it exclusively from Israel.

If you want to focus on Egypt so much let’s be correct about it.

There you go purposefully conflating genocide and ethnic cleansing again. The latter continues in the West Bank. Hard to say which of the two categories sterilizing the Ethiopian Jews fell into what do you think was it ethnic cleansing or was it genocide? It certainly wasn’t “healthcare” before you pull that one out

Igotadose

Overheal wrote: »

More attempts to deflect to Egypt.

Tell me is Gaza even allowed to buy oil etc from Egypt or must they get it exclusively from Israel.

If you want to focus on Egypt so much let’s be correct about it.

There you go purposefully conflating genocide and ethnic cleansing again. The latter continues in the West Bank. Hard to say which of the two categories sterilizing the Ethiopian Jews fell into what do you think was it ethnic cleansing or was it genocide? It certainly wasn’t “healthcare” before you pull that one out

It was long-term contraception. Is that the same as sterilization?

Overheal

Igotadose wrote: »

It was long-term contraception. Is that the same as sterilization?

Pretend we did it to all the women in China without their informed consent, would it be healthcare?

Timberrrrrrrr

Igotadose wrote: »

It was long-term contraception. Is that the same as sterilization?

Would you like it if your wife/daughter was given it without her permission?

Also did they do this to any born and bred Israelis?

Igotadose

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Would you like it if your wife/daughter was given it without her permission?

Nope. But, it wasn't sterilization. Apparently happened twice to small groups of Ethiopian women.

And, if there was an attempt to ethnically cleanse Ethiopian immigrants (who had been transported by Israel from war-torn Ethiopia at great risk and expense), well, they form a growing population in Israel today.

So, do we agree it wasn't sterilization?

Overheal

Igotadose wrote: »

Nope. But, it wasn't sterilization. Apparently happened twice to small groups of Ethiopian women.

And, if there was an attempt to ethnically cleanse Ethiopian immigrants (who had been transported by Israel from war-torn Ethiopia at great risk and expense), well, they form a growing population in Israel today.

So, do we agree it wasn't sterilization?

We only agree they were caught.

Timberrrrrrrr

Igotadose wrote: »

Nope. But, it wasn't sterilization. Apparently happened twice to small groups of Ethiopian women.

And, if there was an attempt to ethnically cleanse Ethiopian immigrants (who had been transported by Israel from war-torn Ethiopia at great risk and expense), well, they form a growing population in Israel today.

So, do we agree it wasn't sterilization?

What would you call it?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/30/forced-contraception-jewish-ethopian-women

the conclusions of the report, written by Hedva Eyal, are that the injections given to Ethiopian women are "a method of reducing the number of births in a community that is black and mostly poor".

Igotadose

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What would you call it?

Forced or coerced contraception.

Timberrrrrrrr

Igotadose wrote: »

Forced or coerced contraception.

And that makes it OK? Was Menglers experiments on women also "Forced or coerced contraception"? I mean...its just semantics at the end of the day right?

Igotadose

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And that makes it OK? Was Menglers experiments on women also "Forced or coerced contraception"? I mean...its just semantics at the end of the day right?

When asked I agreed it was a terrible thing to do. It wasn't sterilization, however.

Timberrrrrrrr

Igotadose wrote: »

When asked I agreed it was a terrible thing to do. It wasn't sterilization, however.

After being forced to take the drugs, were the women (albeit temporarily) sterile?

Igotadose

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

After being forced to take the drugs, were the women (albeit temporarily) sterile?

Temporarily infertile. They were given depo provera, which afaik is a fertility control, not a sterilization drug.

Sterilization is permanent.

Timberrrrrrrr

Igotadose wrote: »

Temporarily infertile. They were given depo provera, which afaik is a fertility control, not a sterilization drug.

Sterilization is permanent.

Could they get pregnant during this time?


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/amp/

effectively amounting to forced (if temporary) sterilization

Have they ever given these drugs to American or European women who were entering Israel?

PeggyShippen

Alan Shatter let rip in the 'Jerusalem Post'. Fair play to him. https://m.jpost.com/opinion/irelands-delusional-orgy-of-criticism-of-israel-opinion-669828/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Ardillaun

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Are Israel? They blockade the sea so fishermen cannot earn a.living, they decide what enters Gaza, they recently blocked vaccines from.entering Gaza!

Should the Palestinians just sit back as Israeli settlements expand? Should they just go quietly into the night because a family from New York has decided they want the house they have lived in for fifty years? Would you be a meek kitten and allow this or would you vote for the people who are at least fighting for your right to survival?

Israeli settlements are not expanding into Gaza and the situations in East Jerusalem and the West Bank are a different matter that Hamas has no formal role in at the moment.

If I were an ordinary guy in Gaza, I would be focused on the welfare of my family like most people are everywhere. What is Hamas doing to make my life better and give my kids a future? Whatever a few may say on TV, the vast majority of people have no desire to die for their country. Hamas should call Israel’s bluff and negotiate to end the blockade.

Timberrrrrrrr

Ardillaun wrote: »

Israeli settlements are not expanding into Gaza and the situations in East Jerusalem and the West Bank are a different matter that Hamas has no formal role in at the moment.

If I were an ordinary guy in Gaza, I would be focused on the welfare of my family like most people are everywhere. What is Hamas doing to make my life better and give my kids a future? Whatever a few may say on TV, the vast majority of people have no desire to die for their country. Hamas should call Israel’s bluff and negotiate to end the blockade.

Now let's change that to the Irish perspective shall we?

If I were an ordinary guy in Northern Ireland, I would be focused on the welfare of my family like most people are everywhere. What is the I.R.A doing to make my life better and give my kids a future? Whatever a few may say on TV, the vast majority of people have no desire to die for their country. The I.R.A should call Englands’s bluff and negotiate to end the occupation.

Ardillaun

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Alan Shatter let rip in the 'Jerusalem Post'. Fair play to him. https://m.jpost.com/opinion/irelands-delusional-orgy-of-criticism-of-israel-opinion-669828/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Shatter had so many of the attributes required for high office but an inability to keep the gob shut at the appropriate moment did for him. This piece is a bit over the top for a former FG Minister and reeks of spite.

Anyway, how come Ireland gets such a hard time for its (quietly pro-British) neutrality while the likes of Sweden don’t get much of a mention? And what about Finland, which actually invaded Russia with the Nazis in Operation Barbarossa? I’ve never heard anybody giving out about them.

Igotadose

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Could they get pregnant during this time?

Do you mean, "can Depo Prover fail?" Of course. It's 96% effective at preventing pregnancy. But yes, they "could."

Or are you asking, "Did the Israeli state take extreme measures to prevent all Ethiopian emigres from getting pregnant?" I think the answer to that is unclear at best and likely, no.

Have they ever given these drugs to American or European women who were entering Israel?

Not to my knowledge. But it still wasn't "sterilization." It was temporary birth control.

Timberrrrrrrr

Igotadose wrote: »

Do you mean, "can Depo Prover fail?" Of course. It's 96% effective at preventing pregnancy. But yes, they "could."

Or are you asking, "Did the Israeli state take extreme measures to prevent all Ethiopian emigres from getting pregnant?" I think the answer to that is unclear at best and likely, no.



Not to my knowledge. But it still wasn't "sterilization." It was temporary birth control.

You call it birth control, I cal it state sponsored racism and (temporary) sterilization.