Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Ardillaun

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Now let's change that to the Irish perspective shall we?

If I were an ordinary guy in Northern Ireland, I would be focused on the welfare of my family like most people are everywhere. What is the I.R.A doing to make my life better and give my kids a future? Whatever a few may say on TV, the vast majority of people have no desire to die for their country.

Sounds reasonable enough.

Here’s a simpler analogy. You have a relative who got involved in a row in the pub. You defended him and got him home. Next week he does the same thing and the week after that. At some point you’re going to have a talk with that lad and explain that this kind of thing can’t go on.

jimmycrackcorm

Ardillaun wrote: »

Shatter had so many of the attributes required for high office but an inability to keep the gob shut at the appropriate moment did for him. This piece is a bit over the top for a former FG Minister and reeks of spite.

Anyway, how come Ireland gets such a hard time for its (quietly pro-British) neutrality while the likes of Sweden don’t get much of a mention? And what about Finland, which actually invaded Russia with the Nazis in Operation Barbarossa? I’ve never heard anybody giving out about them.

If it is valid in that article to criticize Ireland's attitude in the 1930's/40's then it should be equally valid to say that the state of Israel should not have been created either as there was no prior conception of creating a country purely based on religion.

Igotadose

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You call it birth control, I cal it state sponsored racism and (temporary) sterilization.

Still, the Ethiopians were in Israel at the expense of and risk to Israel.

The 'state sponsored racism' slam flies in the face of that. I doubt it was state sponsored, have you located a source that said so? Here's one that references back to the original Israeli magazine article that led to the Guardian story: https://www.quora.com/Are-Ethiopian-Jews-in-Israel-forcibly-sterilized

The comments in that thread seem to indicate a lot of confusion in the camps, and the drugs being administered by Ethiopian doctors in fact.


And, has Israel made changes to prevent this? I believe it has, it's deplorable that the Israeli government had to issue such guidelines. But, who knows what was going on in the transit camps in question in 2013.

Timberrrrrrrr

Ardillaun wrote: »

Sounds reasonable enough.

Here’s a simpler analogy. You have a relative who got involved in a row in the pub. You defended him and got him home. Next week he does the same thing and the week after that. At some point you’re going to have a talk with that lad and explain that this kind of thing can’t go on.

That's grand until.you find out that the people he is fighting with have cut off his electricity, make it hard for him to find work and blocked him.and his family from getting a vaccine!

Timberrrrrrrr

Igotadose wrote: »

Still, the Ethiopians were in Israel at the expense of and risk to Israel.

The 'state sponsored racism' slam flies in the face of that. I doubt it was state sponsored, have you located a source that said so? Here's one that references back to the original Israeli magazine article that led to the Guardian story: https://www.quora.com/Are-Ethiopian-Jews-in-Israel-forcibly-sterilized

The comments in that thread seem to indicate a lot of confusion in the camps, and the drugs being administered by Ethiopian doctors in fact.


And, has Israel made changes to prevent this? I believe it has, it's deplorable that the Israeli government had to issue such guidelines. But, who knows what was going on in the transit camps in question in 2013.

Germany has taken steps to stop Nazis, it still doesn't take away from the fact that they did bad things! I get it, you want to downplay this and pretend it was everyone else's fault but things just one despicable thing in a long history of despicable things that Israel has done!

Igotadose

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Germany has taken steps to stop Nazis, it still doesn't take away from the fact that they did bad things! I get it, you want to downplay this and pretend it was everyone else's fault but things just one despicable thing in a long history of despicable things that Israel has done!

I've not done any of that. I was trying to clarify that the events in question weren't sterilization, as they weren't permanent. That's all. Of course later you godwinned it, so I think that means you lose? <j/k>

Timberrrrrrrr

Igotadose wrote: »

I've not done any of that. I was trying to clarify that the events in question weren't sterilization, as they weren't permanent. That's all. Of course later you godwinned it, so I think that means you lose? <j/k>

You tried to downplay what happened and wave it off, the fact that this despicable act wasn't carried out on white women from western countries makes it even worse but hey...it wasn't permanent so no need to talk about it anymore right :rolleyes:

If there is a blockade of Gaza can anyone explain how rockets and weapons end up there in the hands of Hamas? How is the possible in a supposed "open air prison"?

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

If there is a blockade of Gaza can anyone explain how rockets and weapons end up there in the hands of Hamas? How is the possible in a supposed "open air prison"?

Its called "smuggling", apparently. The rockets are homemade.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If there is a blockade of Gaza can anyone explain how rockets and weapons end up there in the hands of Hamas? How is the possible in a supposed "open air prison"?

The same way drugs, phones, weapons get into normal prisons.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The same way drugs, phones, weapons get into normal prisons.

So that kind of vindicates the blockade to my mind. I just think that if we go with the assumption that Israel is "evil" and the Gazans are "good", then surely the easiest way to break the cycle is for Hamas to commit to purely peaceful means. This would give Israel no justification for restrictions.

Take the moral high ground. The template is there......Gandhi, Mandela, even the paramilitaries up North eventually put the guns down.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So that kind of vindicates the blockade to my mind. I just think that if we go with the assumption that Israel is "evil" and the Gazans are "good", then surely the easiest way to break the cycle is for Hamas to commit to purely peaceful means. This would give Israel no justification for restrictions.

Take the moral high ground. The template is there......Gandhi, Mandela, even the paramilitaries up North eventually put the guns down.

So the Palestinian people should just accept thier lot in life, they should live in squalor without basic human rights in the hope that sometime in the future Israel will what?

Ardillaun

One thing we should know from our own tribal conflict is that there’s good and bad on both sides. I support a two state solution but I just can’t bring myself to cheer on Hamas. Their values are not mine.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

So that kind of vindicates the blockade to my mind. I just think that if we go with the assumption that Israel is "evil" and the Gazans are "good", then surely the easiest way to break the cycle is for Hamas to commit to purely peaceful means. This would give Israel no justification for restrictions.

Take the moral high ground. The template is there......Gandhi, Mandela, even the paramilitaries up North eventually put the guns down.

....theres no stoppage to colony expansion in the West Bank, which undermines your "moral high ground" notions.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

So that kind of vindicates the blockade to my mind. I just think that if we go with the assumption that Israel is "evil" and the Gazans are "good", then surely the easiest way to break the cycle is for Hamas to commit to purely peaceful means. This would give Israel no justification for restrictions.

Take the moral high ground. The template is there......Gandhi, Mandela, even the paramilitaries up North eventually put the guns down.

Mandela never renounced armed force.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

....theres no stoppage to colony expansion in the West Bank, which undermines your "moral high ground" notions.

Let's start with Gaza where there are no settlements. I would love to see Gaza built into a peaceful and prosperous territory with no need for blockades and friendly relations with Israel.

The simplest way to go down that road is to stop smuggling weapons in there, stop firing rockets. Try and build a peaceful society for their kids to grow up in. Who cares about some land in the West Bank? Is land really worth the lives of children in Gaza in the inevitable retaliatory strikes?

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

Mandela never renounced armed force.

Yes but he forgave his enemies and was undoubtedly a force for good when he was released from prison. He was no angel, but he is still one of my all-time heroes.

Fuascailteoir

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If there is a blockade of Gaza can anyone explain how rockets and weapons end up there in the hands of Hamas? How is the possible in a supposed "open air prison"?

Hamas repurpose the unexploded munitions dropped on the Gaza strip. Is no shortage of those. For the shells they use old water pipes that used to serve Israeli settlements in Gaza. Is a deadly endeavour as are a lot of fatalities.

Fuascailteoir

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Let's start with Gaza where there are no settlements. I would love to see Gaza built into a peaceful and prosperous territory with no need for blockades and friendly relations with Israel.

The simplest way to go down that road is to stop smuggling weapons in there, stop firing rockets. Try and build a peaceful society for their kids to grow up in. Who cares about some land in the West Bank? Is land really worth the lives of children in Gaza in the inevitable retaliatory strikes?

Israel definitely cares about the land in the west bank and has demonstrated time and again that it is worth a large number of childrens' lives

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Let's start with Gaza where there are no settlements. I would love to see Gaza built into a peaceful and prosperous territory with no need for blockades and friendly relations with Israel.

The simplest way to go down that road is to stop smuggling weapons in there, stop firing rockets. Try and build a peaceful society for their kids to grow up in. Who cares about some land in the West Bank? Is land really worth the lives of children in Gaza in the inevitable retaliatory strikes?

A society where they can't even practice thier faith without being shot at and gassed?

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's start with Gaza where there are no settlements. I would love to see Gaza built into a peaceful and prosperous territory with no need for blockades and friendly relations with Israel.

The simplest way to go down that road is to stop smuggling weapons in there, stop firing rockets. Try and build a peaceful society for their kids to grow up in. Who cares about some land in the West Bank? Is land really worth the lives of children in Gaza in the inevitable retaliatory strikes?

They were building colonies unabated when there wasn't a Hamas in existence. The West Bank shows the pointlessness of the "peace" option.

Deleted User wrote:

es but he forgave his enemies and was undoubtedly a force for good when he was released from prison. He was no angel

"no angel" for fighting one of the twentieth centurys most vile regimes?

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's start with Gaza where there are no settlements. ,,,,,,,,,,,

...where there are no settlements because protecting them was considered too much effort for little gain - there were only about 3,000 colonists. Better results could be yielded by concentrating the IDF resources and settlers in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

A society where they can't even practice thier faith without being shot at and gassed?

That's not happening in Gaza. Try and be honest here.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

They were building colonies unabated when there wasn't a Hamas in existence. The West Bank shows the pointlessness of the "peace" option.





"no angel" for fighting one of the twentieth centurys most vile regimes?

If the West Bank shows the pointlessness of the "peace" option, then Gaza shows the pointlessness of the "violence" option. Which one of those costs the most lives? That's really more important than any land.

And yes, Mandela was "no angel" - still one of my all-time heroes though which you removed from my quote, thanks for that.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

If the West Bank shows the pointlessness of the "peace" option, then Gaza shows the pointlessness of the "violence" option. Which one of those costs the most lives? That's really more important than any land.

And yes, Mandela was "no angel" - still one of my all-time heroes though which you removed from my quote, thanks for that.

Well there are no settlements anymore in Gaza, so no, it doesn't show "the pointlessness of the "violence" option"

Why?

igCorcaigh

Naftali Bennett to be PM.

A move to the Right?

What will this mean?

Odhinn

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Naftali Bennett to be PM.

A move to the Right?

What will this mean?

Even more expansion into Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank, Golan etc, or so I'd imagine.

wes

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Naftali Bennett to be PM.

A move to the Right?

What will this mean?

He opposes the 2 state solution, but then so did Netanyahu.

It will be more of the same pretty much, assuming the government doesn't collapse in the next 6 months.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

Well there are no settlements anymore in Gaza, so no, it doesn't show "the pointlessness of the "violence" option"

Why?

You think violence is the reason for no settlements in Gaza? Laughable.

My point was - Gaza just got bombarded for over a week in retaliatory strikes. Israel did more damage to Gaza than Gaza ever will to Israel. That is why I mean by the "pointlessness of the violence option".

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

You think violence is the reason for no settlements in Gaza? Laughable.

What is the reason then so?