Israeli - Palestinian Conflict Threadbans in OP

Odhinn · 16-06-2021 3:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Because Hamas are morally superior to Israeli settlers.

Hamas are the symptom of decades of colonial expansion and the corruption of Fatah.

Deleted User wrote:

Settlers "routinely" fire at Palestinians? That sounds like a bit of hyperbole.

Settler violence is well documented

https://www.btselem.org/topic/settler_violence

Odhinn · 16-06-2021 3:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Why does it matter though? Even if there is proof it will be swiftly ignored and/or dismissed and the whataboutery of the settlements will be brought up to justify violence in Gaza, where there are no settlements.

I think the Gazans need to decide if it's worth risking their lives to fight for a bit of land far away from their territory. Surely saving lives should be the priority, rather than fighting over land.

"The land" has people on it.

wes · 16-06-2021 3:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Why does it matter though? Even if there is proof it will be swiftly ignored and/or dismissed and the whataboutery of the settlements will be brought up to justify violence in Gaza, where there are no settlements.

The Palestinians are a single people. Settlements are not whataboutery, its the same conflict. So Israel violent settlement program in the West Bank is part of the conflict, as the West Bank is supposed to be part of a future Palestinians state, which includes Gaza. Honestly, the nonsense you have come up with right now is embarrassing, and a perfect example of the level of cognitive dissonance require to justify the actions of the Israeli gov.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the Gazans need to decide if it's worth risking their lives to fight for a bit of land far away from their territory. Surely saving lives should be the priority, rather than fighting over land.

They are in an open air prison and Palestinians are being killed in the West Bank on a regular basis. Again, violence from the state of Israel never ever stops, it does not matter what Palestinians do, the issue Zionists have with Palestinians (it should be noted that Zionists very often claim Palestinians do not exist), is that they exist, and that is enough for Zionists to justify violence against Palestinians.

Palestinians are one people. Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem are supposed to be a future Palestinian state, so its not a separate issues, as you desperately are trying to make it out to be.

Again, we had extremist Israeli's scream "Death to Arabs" just yesterday, and 0 international condemnation for this, and 0 condemnation from any Israeli allies at all. In fact that regular incitement to genocide is ignored, and a Palestinians calling for decolonization are falsely accused of calling for genocide.

16-06-2021 3:47pm

wes wrote: »

The Palestinians are a single people. Settlements are not whataboutery, its the same conflict. So Israel violent settlement program in the West Bank is part of the conflict, as the West Bank is supposed to be part of a future Palestinians state, which includes Gaza. Honestly, the nonsense you have come up with right now is embarrassing, and a perfect example of the level of cognitive dissonance require to justify the actions of the Israeli gov.

If I'm a parent of a child in Gaza, I would much rather my kid grow up without the threat from retaliatory strikes from Israel. I would prefer no rockets or anything to be fired at Israel. If Israel is the war criminal/genocide monster some claim they are, I would not want to provoke them or give them a reason to launch strikes. Violence from Gaza only invites more violence from Israel. It's quite predictable. Surely Hamas, being the virtuous bunch of guys that they are, can break the cycle.

tayto lover · 16-06-2021 3:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If I'm a parent of a child in Gaza, I would much rather my kid grow up without the threat from retaliatory strikes from Israel. I would prefer no rockets or anything to be fired at Israel. If Israel is the war criminal/genocide monster some claim they are, I would not want to provoke them or give them a reason to launch strikes. Violence from Gaza only invites more violence from Israel. It's quite predictable. Surely Hamas, being the virtuous bunch of guys that they are, can break the cycle.

What if you and your children were thrown out of your home to allow settlers move in?

16-06-2021 3:57pm

tayto lover wrote: »

What if you and your children were thrown out of your home to allow settlers move in?

There are no settlements being built in Gaza. All settlers were evicted by Israel security forces in 2005.

tayto lover · 16-06-2021 3:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There are no settlements being built in Gaza. All settlers were evicted by Israel security forces in 2005.

I didn’t mention Gaza.
Please answer the question asked.

Odhinn · 16-06-2021 4:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There are no settlements being built in Gaza. All settlers were evicted by Israel security forces in 2005.

.....moved to the West Bank, where they boosted the colonial effort there.

16-06-2021 4:01pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I didn’t mention Gaza.
Please answer the question asked.

You didn't mention Gaza. I did in my intial post that you quoted. If I was a parent in Gaza I would prioritise my kid's safety over land/people in the West Bank. Who cares about land if children's lives are supposedly at risk.

Montage of Feck · 16-06-2021 4:07pm

Odhinn wrote: »

.....moved to the West Bank, where they boosted the colonial effort there.

It's more quid pro quo when you consider the now almost vanished Jewish population of Arab land's.

16-06-2021 4:10pm

Montage of Feck wrote: »

It's more quid pro quo when you consider the now almost vanished Jewish population of Arab land's.

Interesting how Christians have also been pushed out of Arab or predominantly Muslim lands. Almost like there is a common denominator here.

wes · 16-06-2021 4:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If I'm a parent of a child in Gaza, I would much rather my kid grow up without the threat from retaliatory strikes from Israel. I would prefer no rockets or anything to be fired at Israel. If Israel is the war criminal/genocide monster some claim they are, I would not want to provoke them or give them a reason to launch strikes. Violence from Gaza only invites more violence from Israel. It's quite predictable. Surely Hamas, being the virtuous bunch of guys that they are, can break the cycle.

Israel doesn't need to be provoked, hence nonsense about incendiary balloons. Also, how is what Israel doing, day in and day out ignored by you? Gaza is still an open air prison, denied any kind of ability to function properly by Israel and its allies. Ongoing violence in the West Bank, by the IDF and settlers. The Israeli gov has never stopped its violence, no matter what Palestinians do or do not do.

IMO, this kind of victim blaming is absurd really. Violence from Israel is on going, and the fact you choose to ignore this is utterly bizarre.

What the people of Gaza does not matter to Israel, they will invent a reason to attack one way or another.

Stovepipe · 16-06-2021 4:11pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Israel has restrictive gun laws that apply to all its citizens. What's your proof for the quoted?

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/israel.php

Settlers can get rifles and pistols as their situation in living in contested areas entitles them to get licenses for self protection. The Baruch Goldsteins of this world are a clear example. No Palestinian can ever get a legal firearm inside Israel or West Bank. The only Israeli Arabs that can get firearms are Druze and that's usually farmers being allowed shotguns for pest control.

16-06-2021 4:16pm

wes wrote: »

Israel doesn't need to be provoked, hence nonsense about incendiary balloons. Also, how is what Israel doing, day in and day out ignored by you? Gaza is still an open air prison, denied any kind of ability to function properly by Israel and its allies. Ongoing violence in the West Bank, by the IDF and settlers. The Israeli gov has never stopped its violence, no matter what Palestinians do or do not do.

IMO, this kind of victim blaming is absurd really. Violence from Israel is on going, and the fact you choose to ignore this is utterly bizarre.

What the people of Gaza does not matter to Israel, they will invent a reason to attack one way or another.

For the record, I think what Israel is doing regarding settlements is wrong. I don't condone it. I think they should stop and arguably give back some of the land they have taken in recent years, including with the built houses as a form of reparation.

When you say "What the people of Gaza does not matter to Israel, they will invent a reason to attack one way or another." I feel the exact same way about the Palestinians. No matter what Israel do, they will be absolutely hated with a murderous passion.

tayto lover · 16-06-2021 4:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You didn't mention Gaza. I did in my intial post that you quoted. If I was a parent in Gaza I would prioritise my kid's safety over land/people in the West Bank. Who cares about land if children's lives are supposedly at risk.

Ok. Now if you weren’t living in Gaza and you and your children were forcefully thrown out of your home to allow settlers in, would you just turn the other cheek?

Mimon · 16-06-2021 4:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Why does it matter though? Even if there is proof it will be swiftly ignored and/or dismissed and the whataboutery of the settlements will be brought up to justify violence in Gaza, where there are no settlements.

I think the Gazans need to decide if it's worth risking their lives to fight for a bit of land far away from their territory. Surely saving lives should be the priority, rather than fighting over land.

You are forgetting that a huge proportion of people living in Gaza are descended from people who had their land stolen from them in other parts of Palestine and were displaced to Gaza.

To say that they should not stand up for the remaining Palestinian territory is not realistic or reasonable whatsoever and frankly shows little understanding of the situation.

wes · 16-06-2021 4:24pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Ok. Now if you weren’t living in Gaza and you and your children were forcefully thrown out of your home to allow settlers in, would you just turn the other cheek?

Most of the people in Gaza are refugees, who were driven out of what is now Israel, Palestinians were literally driven into the sea and escaped to Gaza. I have yet to see a non-racist reason as to why they can't return to there former homes or have new ones built in the area's they were driven from.

Igotadose · 16-06-2021 4:31pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

Settlers can get rifles and pistols as their situation in living in contested areas entitles them to get licenses for self protection. The Baruch Goldsteins of this world are a clear example. No Palestinian can ever get a legal firearm inside Israel or West Bank. The only Israeli Arabs that can get firearms are Druze and that's usually farmers being allowed shotguns for pest control.

Source? Because Arabs living in Israel can get guns.
(and, as usual when there are guns around, they use them on each other.)

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2020/09/palestinian-families-west-bank-weapons-security-chaos.html

tayto lover · 16-06-2021 4:34pm

wes wrote: »

Most of the people in Gaza are refugees, who were driven out of what is now Israel, Palestinians were literally driven into the sea and escaped to Gaza. I have yet to see a non-racist reason as to why they can't return to there former homes or have new ones built in the area's they were driven from.

I’m aware of all that.
I’m just asking how he’d react to being forcefully evicted.

Odhinn · 16-06-2021 4:41pm

Montage of Feck wrote: »

It's more quid pro quo when you consider the now almost vanished Jewish population of Arab land's.

So all Arabs are to be treated as a bloc. A bit like the reasoning that blames all Jews for the actions of the Israeli state.

Overheal · 16-06-2021 5:40pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why does it matter though? Even if there is proof it will be swiftly ignored and/or dismissed and the whataboutery of the settlements will be brought up to justify violence in Gaza, where there are no settlements.

I think the Gazans need to decide if it's worth risking their lives to fight for a bit of land far away from their territory. Surely saving lives should be the priority, rather than fighting over land.

Gazans are Palestinians. Israel tried to split Palestine in two, and it didn’t work. Nice try.

wes · 16-06-2021 5:51pm

Odhinn wrote: »

So all Arabs are to be treated as a bloc. A bit like the reasoning that blames all Jews for the actions of the Israeli state.

If Israel wanted justice for Jewish refugees, then they should have brought that up with countries like Egypt, whom they already have made a peace deal with.

Trying to say there was a population exchange, ignores several major factors, the first of which Zionism is a European colonial ideology which makes land claims based on stuff written in the bible, and as mentioned before previous peace deals with other Arab states.

The fact remains for supporters of Israel is that the right to return is enshrined in international law, and no one would oppose Jewish people exercising such a right vis a vi Arab states as well.

16-06-2021 9:18pm

Mimon wrote: »

To say that they should not stand up for the remaining Palestinian territory is not realistic or reasonable whatsoever and frankly shows little understanding of the situation.

Why is it not reasonable to expect Gazans not to fire rockets? Do you set such low expectations of them that you automatically assume that it would be 'unrealistic' for them not to be violent?

16-06-2021 9:24pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Ok. Now if you weren’t living in Gaza and you and your children were forcefully thrown out of your home to allow settlers in, would you just turn the other cheek?

If it meant my family's safety would be secure, I absolutely would turn the other cheek, yes.

Stovepipe · 16-06-2021 9:44pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Source? Because Arabs living in Israel can get guns.
(and, as usual when there are guns around, they use them on each other.)

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2020/09/palestinian-families-west-bank-weapons-security-chaos.html

if you read that article, the guns are mostly illegal, obtained from the PA by fair means or foul or imported by Hamas. They are certainly not weapons obtained on an Israeli license.

Odhinn · 16-06-2021 10:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is it not reasonable to expect Gazans not to fire rockets? Do you set such low expectations of them that you automatically assume that it would be 'unrealistic' for them not to be violent?

Do please tell us what they should do.

wes · 16-06-2021 10:07pm

Video of yesterdays hate rally of extremist Israeli's:
https://twitter.com/imraansiddiqi/status/1405237933397856261?s=20

0 media coverage in the West, and this is a regular event, that is either ignored or downplayed in the West.

16-06-2021 10:16pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Do please tell us what they should do.

Step 1: Stop firing rockets. It does more harm to Gaza than good. There is absolutely NOTHING good that has come from this policy. So at the very least, they lose nothing by stopping the violence from their end.
Step 2: Build a society in there. Israel and Egypt are only keeping a tight check on the border control because of the serious risk of Hamas and Islamic terrorists collaborating. If this risk dissipates, then Israel and Egypt would have no reason not to allow the controls to loosen. It's a vicious cycle. Hamas are the only ones who have the power to change it.

16-06-2021 10:25pm

wes wrote: »

Video of yesterdays hate rally of extremist Israeli's:
https://twitter.com/imraansiddiqi/status/1405237933397856261?s=20

0 media coverage in the West, and this is a regular event, that is either ignored or downplayed in the West.

I don't recall ever seeing any news stories about Palestinian extremists either. I think the extreme views of the Palestinians gets very quickly glossed over/ignored all too often.

Odhinn · 16-06-2021 10:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Step 1: Stop firing rockets. It does more harm to Gaza than good. There is absolutely NOTHING good that has come from this policy. So at the very least, they lose nothing by stopping the violence from their end..

The unrelenting campaign of violence is what made the gaza colonys unviable. Take a look at the West Bank and tell me what use "peace" has got them.

Deleted User wrote: »

Step 2: Build a society in there. Israel and Egypt are only keeping a tight check on the border control because of the serious risk of Hamas and Islamic terrorists collaborating. If this risk dissipates, then Israel and Egypt would have no reason not to allow the controls to loosen. It's a vicious cycle. Hamas are the only ones who have the power to change it.

Israel is interested in expansion, not "peace".

who are these "islamic terrorists" ?

Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

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Israeli - Palestinian Conflict Threadbans in OP