Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

J Mysterio

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Biden will do nothing but carry on supporting Israel.
Some American traditions do not change.

Was very dissapointed by Biden's weak, half hearted comments, if not surprised.

igCorcaigh

J Mysterio wrote: »

Was very dissapointed by Biden's weak, half hearted comments, if not surprised.

Both Biden and the VP are friends of Israel.
What we consider Left and Right, as regards this conflict, doesn't correlate at all with that in the US.

timmyntc

J Mysterio wrote: »

Was very dissapointed by Biden's weak, half hearted comments, if not surprised.

The US are obsessed with Israel. They funnel billions of dollars to them every year in "aid" despite the US probably needing that money more than Israel.

Not to mention a certain US ship that was bombed by the Israeli military 60 odd years ago - not so much as a slap on the wrist from the US.

igCorcaigh

On the topic of the historical narrative, the Israeli state, and the Jewish people who live there, have a siege mentality.
Any violence or injustice to the others, is a form of self defence. They are the oppressed ones defending their homeland.

There is such a gulf of misunderstanding between the peoples.

It sort of sounds familiar, doesn't it...

J Mysterio

wes wrote: »

People invoking the North is bizarre. The British didn't respond to the IRA by bombing Dublin back to the stone age.

Well, they burned Cork, Balbriggan etc.

igCorcaigh

cnocbui wrote: »

Some - the US gift them about $4 b worth each and every year.

Gift... not, sold?

J Mysterio

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

They also don't evict families in Dublin. And build houses all over meath.

They did that too, a little further back in time...

Shebean

Obama's last act as regards Israel was to abstain from a vote regarding settlements. Hopefully Biden in the least continues in that vein.

igCorcaigh

Shebean wrote: »

Obama's last act as regards Israel was to abstain from a vote regarding settlements. Hopefully Biden in the least continues in that vein.

Abstain?

Scoundrel

You will not get elected in the USA without being an Israel supporter the lobby is too strong.

igCorcaigh

Scoundrel wrote: »

You will not get elected in the USA without being an Israel supporter the lobby is too strong.

Bernie agrees.

Lmkrnr

Scoundrel wrote: »

You will not get elected in the USA without being an Israel supporter the lobby is too strong.

Corbyn agrees RE UK.

cnocbui

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Gift... not, sold?

Well if you give Israel $4 B in aid and they use that money to buy arms from you, that's a gift in my eyes.

https://www.wrmea.org/congress-u.s.-aid-to-israel/u.s.-financial-aid-to-israel-figures-facts-and-impact.html

igCorcaigh

Lmkrnr wrote: »

Corbyn agrees RE UK.

And we must not forget the many Jewish people, the world over, intellectuals or otherwise, who have always opposed Israeli policy.

Even within Israel, there is a solid Left wing movement who oppose their government's policy.

There are people who do not consent with conscription into the army; the conscientious objectors.
We hear little about them.

RoyalCelt

wes wrote: »

Again, Palestinians have always been there. You seem intent on ignoring that inconvenient fact for some reason. Why do you keep referring to Palestinians as Arabs? They have their own identity, and imo you seem to be repeating the phrase the same way Zionists do, to deny Palestinians exist, which imo is problematic.

Also, when was the last time their was a suicide attack in this conflict?

Also, who cares what a British man on facebook says.

Is it not similar to how many in the North see themselves as Irish while others British or Northern Irish?

We can group all those descended from Jews and Arabs as Palestinians but they'll never see it that way. They're two split groups and I'm not holding out hope they'll come together.

The population of the Jews is increasing faster then the Muslims so their position of power will only increase.

At least in Ireland the republican population grew faster then the unionist giving us a stronger voice then we used to by default.

igCorcaigh

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Is it not similar to how many in the North see themselves as Irish while others British or Northern Irish?

We can group all those descended from Jews and Arabs as Palestinians but they'll never see it that way. They're two split groups and I'm not holding out hope they'll come together.

The population of the Jews is increasing faster then the Muslims so their position of power will only increase.

At least in Ireland the republican population grew faster then the unionist giving us a stronger voice then we used to by default.

You seem very interested, RoyalCelt, in seeing the world and history in terms of tribe, creed or ethnicity.
These divisions are some of the sources of conflict.

Ultimately, we are all just people, trying to come out of a painful history.
Your classification can only serve to obscure your understanding, not see a way forward.

RoyalCelt

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I don't really understand the logic of argument about what happened a thousand years ago having any bearing of having what bearing now.

Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself but not to evict families because they want Jerusalem. Where are the Palestinians meant to go. What are they meant to do.

They should give up their land and homes because a magical book says so. Or because two thousand years ago it was Jewish.

They all have to live there and a solution needs to be found beyond we have a god given right to keep expanding without any consideration for millions of people.

If I could wave a magic wand I'd have all unionists in the North moved to Britain and all land returned to the Republic. As bad as it sounds. It's a nasty situation what's happening and I don't like either side. I do however understand why both sides hate each other and why they both want each other gone.

Not holding out any hope for long term peace. We'll have a united Ireland and they'll still be warring there.

In the end the Holy land means so much to Jews and Muslims. Both think they've a right to be there. It's just the end result of people believing in fairly tales sadly. It will take the world going atheist before there's any chance of change.

Shebean

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Abstain?

Obama faces widespread backlash after abstaining from UN Israel vote

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/311712-obama-faces-widespread-backlash-after-abstaining-from-un-israel-vote

igCorcaigh

RoyalCelt wrote: »

If I could wave a magic wand I'd have all unionists in the North moved to Britain and all land returned to the Republic. As bad as it sounds. It's a nasty situation what's happening and I don't like either side. I do however understand why both sides hate each other and why they both want each other gone.

Not holding out any hope for long term peace. We'll have a united Ireland and they'll still be warring there.

In the end the Holy land means so much to Jews and Muslims. Both think they've a right to be there. It's just the end result of people believing in fairly tales sadly. It will take the world going atheist before there's any chance of change.

And that magic wand would have created the exact same history that we observe.
Again, you seem to observe the movements of history in terms of labels of identity, that need to be shielded from each other.

I would recommend you to think that these terms are used in the abstract, from historians, to explain movements in history.
When you live in the present, that's just your neighbour; Joan down the road, and uncle Tommy.

Shebean

RoyalCelt wrote: »

If I could wave a magic wand I'd have all unionists in the North moved to Britain and all land returned to the Republic. As bad as it sounds. It's a nasty situation what's happening and I don't like either side. I do however understand why both sides hate each other and why they both want each other gone.

Not holding out any hope for long term peace. We'll have a united Ireland and they'll still be warring there.

In the end the Holy land means so much to Jews and Muslims. Both think they've a right to be there. It's just the end result of people believing in fairly tales sadly. It will take the world going atheist before there's any chance of change.

Religion is an excuse. In both cases it was/is about being top dog, greed and not wanting to give up power.

igCorcaigh

igCorcaigh wrote: »

And that magic wand would have created the exact same history that we observe.
Again, you seem to observe the movements of history in terms of labels of identity, that need to be shielded from each other.

I would recommend you to think that these terms are used in the abstract, from historians, to explain movements in history.
When you live in the present, that's just your neighbour; Joan down the road, and uncle Tommy.

That seems a bit utopian. And it’s hardly true that identities are totally abstract. Theres a reality there.

As for it being a religious conflict. Only partially, like Northern Ireland.

KeepItLight

KeepItLight wrote: »

NI would be justified in firing rockets into the Republic, if the Republic was a foreign people stealing their land and murdering them.

Gross misrepresentation.

A war between two sides raged in the 1940s. In all wars, you must accept defeat and consequent loss. Had the Arabs won the war, I've no doubt the same problem would have brewed in much the same way.

But that's all history. Israel exists - whether anyone likes it or not.

It's a sovereign state.

Meanwhile, terrorist Palestinians continue to wage war and, as long as they do that, Israel has every right to treat this as war and to occupy land until the Islamic extremists are comprehensively defeated.

Furthermore, the concept of the "Palestinian" is a questionable one. Most of Jordan is composed of what you would ethnically call "Palestinian".

But Jordan doesn't even want her own people.

That alone speaks volumes.

I'm on the side of Israel, democracy, and anti-Islamic fanatics.

That choice is obvious.

igCorcaigh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That seems a bit utopian. And it’s hardly true that identities are totally abstract. Theres a reality there.

As for it being a religious conflict. Only partially, like Northern Ireland.

Totally agree, and guilty on all counts.
But that's my viewing of the world.

RoyalCelt

igCorcaigh wrote: »

You seem very interested, RoyalCelt, in seeing the world and history in terms of tribe, creed or ethnicity.
These divisions are some of the sources of conflict.

Ultimately, we are all just people, trying to come out of a painful history.
Your classification can only serve to obscure your understanding, not see a way forward.

You are right but don't forget that's exactly how the Israelis and Palestinians see themselves. You want them to view the world through your idealistic view and that's never going to happen.

I mean sure we're all human but that doesn't stop a big group of lads north of our island wanting to be seperated. We are different tribes living together but most of us won't be happy until the island is united and seperated from Britain.

Like I believe this whole island is for the Irish the Israelis believe their neck of the woods is for them going back to biblical times. Their entire belief system is based off this. I presume the Palestinians believe something similar that after the Muslim conquests they have the right to the land.

igCorcaigh

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Like I believe this whole island is for the Irish

Yeah?

Tyrone212

Israel can do as it likes as the US gives them billions per year and vetoes everything brought against them in the UN and will continue to do so no matter what. They continually break international law and then play the anti semitic card if you criticise their government/military for their actions and breaking international law. They are modern day Nazis ,given their history that is some turnaround.

RoyalCelt

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Yeah?

Yeah for Irish and in no way affiliated with Britain like part of it now.

timmyntc

eskimohunt wrote: »

Gross misrepresentation.

A war between two sides raged in the 1940s. In all wars, you must accept defeat and consequent loss. Had the Arabs won the war, I've no doubt the same problem would have brewed in much the same way.

But that's all history. Israel exists - whether anyone likes it or not.

It's a sovereign state.

Meanwhile, terrorist Palestinians continue to wage war and, as long as they do that, Israel has every right to treat this as war and to occupy land until the Islamic extremists are comprehensively defeated.

Furthermore, the concept of the "Palestinian" is a questionable one. Most of Jordan is composed of what you would ethnically call "Palestinian".

But Jordan doesn't even want her own people.

That alone speaks volumes.

I'm on the side of Israel, democracy, and anti-Islamic fanatics.

That choice is obvious.

Your own professed anti-islamic views aside,

Israel is a sovereign state. As is Palestine.
So what right does Israel have to occupy the lands of another sovereign state?

igCorcaigh

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Yeah for Irish and in no way affiliated with Britain like part of it now.

But for the people who do identify themselves as British, what do you propose to do?

I'm not goading you now, RC, but I genuinely want to understand how you think conflicts such as the one under topic, could be resolved.

Is your solution to these conflicts, segregation.
One group of people in one place, another group in another place.

An undoing of history, if you like.

wes

wes wrote: »

This is of course nonsense. PCS are mostly made in China, and the software dev is done by multi-nationals all over the world.

BDS is tactical, it doesn't have to be perfect. People boycott what they reasonable can, they don't need to perfect in it. Best effort is more than enough.

In other words just continue to "boycott" what ever it was you were never going to buy in the first place even if produced by Palestinian farmers under an Israeli brand name.

But by all means continue to purchase the expensive tech gadgets from the multi-nationals because... uhm... not buying an orange and a bowl of humus will take down the IDF faster than not buying the nice laptop and smartphone I have. Gotcha!