Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

It's anti-Semitism.

For some reason, many people - particularly young people - are obsessed with "Palestinians".

It's almost a non-questionable religion in and of itself. You will find no criticism of Hamas, even though they are the political equivalent of ISIS and, indeed, support ISIS.

So, we have this weird cognitive dissonance going on. Condemnation of Islamic radicalism in Europe but, when the Israelis encounter exactly the same kind of radicalism and threats to their existence, this is given the apologia of "it's Israel's fault".

There are also many other minorities and communities that people could care about - none of which get the same obsession as Palestinians.

And, for me at least, as someone who previously was a disciple to the "Palestinian cause", I realize now it is only a mask for anti-Semitism. If it were not Jews running Israel, but another variety of Muslim, for example, I'm absolutely certain the cause would not have gathered the same traction.

I could go on. But suffice to say, this is enough food for thought in the now.

Speaking of cognitive dissonance why are you referring to Palestinians like it is a religion and not a people?

Not the first person to try and fail to gaslight criticism of Israel's far-right government and its policy of ethnic cleansing as being "anti-Semitic" and you won't be the last.

The Two State Solution is Anti-Semitic now is it?

namloc1980

Sean.3516 wrote: »

In 1947, the term “Palestinian” just meant someone who lived in Palestine and it was applied to both Jews and Arabs.

There was a Jewish community in Palestine and Arab community in Palestine and the UN offered both the chance to form sovereign states. As the other poster said, the Arabs rejected the deal.

Arabs in Palestine only started describing themselves as “Palestinian” in the 60s when Yasser Arafat started running their movement.

I prefer the term “Arab” to “Palestinian” because using “Palestinian” buys the whole premise that there was a long tradition of nationalism among Arabs in that region which is just sheer propaganda.

Of course you’d know all this if you’d studied any of the history whatsoever.

Zionism was created in Europe in the late 19th century, yet we have posters here claiming the Jews have millennium long rights to the land there.

I also love the bit in bold. Completely ignores the preceding decades where Zionists imported thousands of Jews in from Europe and the rise of Palestinian nationalism in the area and the Arab revolt against British rule. Almost exactly like the propaganda you hear from Israeli government spokespeople.

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

Zionism was created in Europe in the late 19th century, yet we have posters here claiming the Jews have millennium long rights to the land there.

I also love the bit in bold. Completely ignores the preceding decades where Zionists imported thousands of Jews in from Europe and the rise of Palestinian nationalism in the area and the Arab revolt against British rule. Almost exactly like the propaganda you hear from Israeli government spokespeople.

Tell us about the Rohingya people?

Or Muslims subjugated in China?

Or people's in Africa?

Or people's in South America.

But no. It's always "the Jews" we need to focus on.

I wonder why...

namloc1980

eskimohunt wrote: »

It's anti-Semitism.

For some reason, many people - particularly young people - are obsessed with "Palestinians" (you'll note the constant dismissal, harassment, ad hominem attacks, group mentality, non-objectivity etc.). It's almost a form of unquestionable political religion.

It's almost a non-questionable religion in and of itself. You will find no criticism of Hamas, even though they are the political equivalent of ISIS and, indeed, support ISIS.

So, we have this weird cognitive dissonance going on. Condemnation of Islamic radicalism in Europe but, when the Israelis encounter exactly the same kind of radicalism and threats to their very existence, this is given the apologia of "it's Israel's fault".

There are also many other minorities and communities around the entire planet that people could care about - none of which get the same obsession as Palestinians.

And, for me at least, as someone who previously was a disciple to the "Palestinian cause", I realize now it is only a mask for anti-Semitism. If it were not Jews running Israel, but another variety of Muslim, for example, I'm absolutely certain the cause would not have gathered the same traction.

I could go on. But suffice to say, this is enough food for thought in the now.

Your ignorance of this situation is very evident. What is your view of Palestinians being squeezed into ghettos in the West Bank and Gaza? The forced eviction of Palestinians in favour of Jewish settlers? The forced removal of 700,000 Palestinians by Israel on 1948-49 into refugee camps, most of which are still in existence today? The destruction of Palestinian villages after the war? Any thoughts on the Israeli law which only gives Jews the right to self-determination? You cool with all that?

PS it's a sign of a very weak point of view when you have to resort to shouting anti-Semitism.

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

Your ignorance of this situation is very evident. What is your view of Palestinians being squeezed into ghettos in the West Bank and Gaza? The forced eviction of Palestinians in favour of Jewish settlers? The forced removal of 700,000 Palestinians by Israel on 1948-49 into refugee camps, most of which are still in existence today? The destruction of Palestinian villages after the war? Any thoughts on the Israeli law which only gives Jews the right to self-determination? You cool with all that?

PS it's a sign of a very weak point of view when you have to resort to shouting anti-Semitism.

My position is clear.

I'm in favour of Israel taking control of the entire zone.

And yes, we all know anti-Semitism is rife on the Left.

Look at the Uighers subjugated by China - 12 million of them. You'll seldom find a Leftist who knows the entire history of the minority for 200 years. But with Palestinians (2 million) yes. China is very much a pet of the Left, so they say nothing about subjugated Muslims.

But with "the Jews", the Left knows the entire history and, irrespective of links between Hamas to ISIS and Islamic extremism, still defends the indefensible.

cheezums

irishguy1983 wrote: »

I am currently trying to read up on this conflict...I’m actually totally confused who is right or wrong - it depends on what article I read I just thought I would throw that out there...

both sides are wrong in my opinion. two peoples who both claim the land as their historic ancestral right. neither willing to compromise with either a one state or a two state solution. who's claim is more legitimate? that question is irrelevant as we have to live in the present and find something that works for everyone that lives in the lands currently.

a one state solution (Isratine) will never be accepted by the Israelis. A two state solution is the only option that could ever possibly work and the Geneva initiative was probably the best option ever tabled and had a reasonable level of support.

currently, even the two state solution is impossible due to;

1. Jewish settlement policy in the west bank
2. Hamas

(and to a lesser extent the fact that gaza and the west bank are geographically separated.)

until both of those roadblocks are removed, it will be perpetual conflict and violence.

that's my simple take on it anyway.

namloc1980

eskimohunt wrote: »

Tell us about the Rohingya people?

Or Muslims subjugated in China?

Or people's in Africa?

Or people's in South America.

But no. It's always "the Jews" we need to focus on.

I wonder why...

In case you missed it this is a thread about the Israeli Palestinian situation. The clue is in the thread title. If you want to discuss those other topics please create a thread on them.

By the way it's very clear you're just gaslighting with the aul antisemitism card now. Sad.

jam_mac_jam

The two state solution is never going to happen. Where would it be? What's going to happen with all the settlers? It's impossible now.

I think the only way out is to give the Palestinians the same rights as everyone else and maybe stop stealing their houses?

cheezums

cheezums wrote: »

both sides are wrong in my opinion. two peoples who both claim the land as their historic ancestral right. neither willing to compromise with either a one state or a two state solution. who's claim is more legitimate? that question is irrelevant as we have to live in the present and find something that works for everyone that lives in the lands currently.

a one state solution (Isratine) will never be accepted by the Israelis. A two state solution is the only option that could ever possibly work and the Geneva initiative was probably the best option ever tabled and had a reasonable level of support.

currently, even the two state solution is impossible due to;

1. Jewish settlement policy in the west bank
2. Hamas

(and to a lesser extent the fact that gaza and the west bank are geographically separated.)

until both of those roadblocks are removed, it will be perpetual conflict and violence.

that's my simple take on it anyway.

Don't dismiss your take at all.

It is far more accurate and objective than what we've seen across the entire thread. There's nothing simple and stupid about it at all.

Never take the false comfort of consensus as a reason to feel comfortable. Yes, the Leftists are strong on this thread, but that should serve as no reason to assume your position is false. Your position is a legitimate one. Don't let the majority break you down as if you are somehow obviously wrong. As someone on the Israeli side of things, I appreciate the value and legitimacy of your commentary. They will just abuse you with sarcasm and cheap takedowns.

You've made some of the best points in many a long page. Don't let those obsessed with the Palestinians undermine the legitimacy of your points.

namloc1980

eskimohunt wrote: »

My position is clear.

I'm in favour of Israel taking control of the entire zone.

And yes, we all know anti-Semitism is rife on the Left.

Look at the Uighers subjugated by China - 12 million of them. You'll seldom find a Leftist who knows the entire history of the minority for 200 years. But with Palestinians (2 million) yes. China is very much a pet of the Left, so they say nothing about subjugated Muslims.

But with "the Jews", the Left knows the entire history and, irrespective of links between Hamas to ISIS and Islamic extremism, still defends the indefensible.

Ah so you don't care about people being forced into refugee camps and forced out of their homes like we saw last week in Jerusalem? Why do you hate Palestinians so much? Sounds awfully like bigotry and islamophobia.

Sean.3516

fvp4 wrote: »

netahanyu is also in an election cycle.

Your point being what?

The Palestinians intentionally cancelled their elections like a week before all this started.
Israel has had 4 elections in the last 2 years. The country is so democratic it's almost ungovernable.
Palestine last had an election in 2006. Mahmoud Abbas is in the 14th year of a 4 year term. He's a dictator. Israel has had 8 elections in that time.

Plus there's widespread consensus in Israeli politics about the threat posed by the Palestinians. Netanyahu's main rival Benny Gantz is a former IDF general. This conflict has nothing to do with Israel's internal politics.

fvp4 wrote: »

It certainly needs the support of the US to the tune of $4bn a year.

Well, considering Israel successfully fought off two full scale invasions by all of its neighbours before they had any real material support from the West, I reckon they can get by.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

Tell us about the Rohingya people?

Or Muslims subjugated in China?

Or people's in Africa?

Or people's in South America.

But no. It's always "the Jews" we need to focus on.

I wonder why...

It's a thread about the Israel-Palestinian Conflict. Rather than engage in flapping whataboutery maybe post threads about those if you wish to focus on them?

We're focused on Israel, which, as you helpfully pointed out, is only about 80% Jewish by demographic.

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Your point being what?

That Netanyahu's escalation of ethnic cleansing policies coincided very neatly with his drop in approval and failure to form a new government. Not rocket surgery.

This conflict has nothing to do with Israel's internal politics.

On the contrary this very much relates to the violent crackdowns, evictions, acts of terrorism etc. against Palestinians from Israeli settlers and the IDF. Folly to argue the negative.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

My position is clear.

I'm in favour of Israel taking control of the entire zone.

And yes, we all know anti-Semitism is rife on the Left.

Look at the Uighers subjugated by China - 12 million of them. You'll seldom find a Leftist who knows the entire history of the minority for 200 years. But with Palestinians (2 million) yes. China is very much a pet of the Left, so they say nothing about subjugated Muslims.

But with "the Jews", the Left knows the entire history and, irrespective of links between Hamas to ISIS and Islamic extremism, still defends the indefensible.

So your position is you want Israel to ethnically cleanse the zone and assume anyone critical of that is critical for antisemitic reasons.

As they say, the thief suspects everyone is stealing from them, here I think we have a case of those believing that ethnic cleansing is okay, are merely paranoid that everyone else around them has a racist agenda rivaling theirs.

namloc1980

Overheal wrote: »

So your position is you want Israel to ethnically cleanse the zone and assume anyone critical of that is critical for antisemitic reasons.

As they say, the thief suspects everyone is stealing from them, here I think we have a case of those believing that ethnic cleansing is okay, are merely paranoid that everyone else around them has a racist agenda rivaling theirs.

Quite something that we have a poster openly advocating for Israel to ethnically cleanse the entire area of Palestinians. Time to put that poster on ignore as their views are now beyond disturbing.

batman75

The minute someone wheels out the old an semitism defense against criticism you know not to take them seriously.
What Israel is doing is indefensible. From land grabs, apartheid and exertion of illegal control over the workings of another state.
Israel should be made go back to their 1948 borders. They are lucky to even exist as a country. Despite the idiotic ramblings of Eskimohunt Palestinians are entitled to their own state and for that state to be respected by the world.

Overheal

FTR: "But they're doing it in China" is not a valid excuse for engaging in ethnic cleansing.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

FTR: "But they're doing it in China" is not a valid excuse in the West for engaging in ethnic cleansing.

I'm not suggesting that for one second.

What I'm saying is that Leftists have an obsession with Jewry where, in other political cases - often those involving China and Russia, they don't know the history from Adam.

I wonder why.

We all know.

jam_mac_jam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that for one second.

What I'm saying is that Leftists have an obsession with Jewry where, in other political cases - often those involving China and Russia, they don't know the history from Adam.

I wonder why.

We all know.

Yes lucky there is no connection with the right and antisemitism.
None whatever.

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yes lucky there is no connection with the right and antisemitism.
None whatever.

There is, but it is far more pronounced with Leftism.

We all know that.

wes

fvp4 wrote: »

Any source for that which isn’t from Memri?

Poster is probably referring the old Hamas charter, which was changed in 2017 and now supports a 2 state solution:

Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders


FYI, no matter how many time you point out that the charter has changed, apologists tend not accept facts they don't like.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

What I'm saying is that Leftists have an obsession with Jewry where, in other political cases - often those involving China and Russia, they don't know the history from Adam.

I wonder why.

We all know.

More gaslighting.


I know more about Israel than the inner workings of my coffee maker too but that doesn't mean I have no valid interest in the Israeli-Palestine conflict. I don't know how one would begin to claim that before you can comment on X issue you need to be fluent in whatever other whataboutism the party who could not conjure together a cogent argument on the central topic thought to pull out of their hat.

jam_mac_jam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is, but it is far more pronounced with Leftism.

We all know that.

Do we? Or have just failing back on the old tropes. To insult people you don't agree with.

Your comments are much nearer to Islamophobia then anyone's is to antisemitism. Implying that all Palestinians are terrorists or jihadis.

I am sure there are some people who are anti semitic. However I think the argument on both sides is more driven by sense of fairness than discrimination against people.

Most people are not anti semitic or islamophobic. There are Jews that are campaigning for better treatment of Palestinians, are they also antisemitic? The Isreali soldiers who speak out?

My guess that people on both sides are driven by human rights or fairness. I really don't think it's as simple as not liking Jews or Arabs.

Barry904

The two state solution is the only solution.

wes

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Do we? Or have just failing back on the old tropes. To insult people you don't agree with.

The irony of a user with a derogatory term in their username accusing other of racism should not be lost on all of us:

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/eskimo

jam_mac_jam

Barry904 wrote: »

The two state solution is the only solution.

Maybe thirty years ago. It's never going to happen with the settlements. There is nowhere it could go now.

namloc1980

Barry904 wrote: »

The two state solution is the only solution.

It's almost impossible now due to the amount of settlements in the West Bank which is fully supported by the Israeli government in violation of international law. Over 500,000 Israelis now live in the West Bank.

Overheal

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's almost impossible now due to the amount of settlements in the West Bank which is fully supported by the Israeli government in violation of international law. Over 500,000 Israelis now live in the West Bank.

US Response: no. don't. please. stop. alright. that's enough. no more. stop. stop soon please.

wes

https://twitter.com/abierkhatib/status/1392958258688708615?s=20

Remember Hamas offered a ceasefire. Israeli gov is the aggressor and targets civilians deliberately with advanced weapons. Once again the people Gaza will be murdered with de facto support of most Western countries.

Sean.3516

namloc1980 wrote: »

What about this from Israeli basic law? The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.

Yes, this caused a lot of controversy because everyone misunderstands what is meant by that line "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel". It basically just means that the right to sovereignty and to form a state in a traditionally Jewish land is an inherently and uniquely a Jewish right. That's not to say that non-Jewish Israelis should be deprived of their rights as citizens. It simply means that for all Jews, (including non-Israeli Jews who can immigrate to Israel very easily) this is an unqualified right.

The law also acknowledges the "special status" of the Arab language and the freedom of religion and equal rights of non-Jews in Israel.

Netanyahu said of the law: "I want a state of one nation: the Jewish nation-state, which includes non-Jews with equal rights."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People#cite_note-38

namloc1980 wrote: »

Or the eviction of Palestinians in favour of Jewish settlers, or the settlement of Palestinian lands on the West Bank by Jewish settlers? Any thoughts on that?

The private court case over 4 houses in Jerusalem that's being dragged out for 50 years?
Basically the houses were originally occupied by Jews and then when Arabs took the area over, people squatted there and when the area reverted to Israeli control, the squatters refused to pay rent to the people who owned the building (who never relinquished ownership of it). Now the owners want to demolish it and build apartments. It's a private matter and it comes down to the fact that you can't squat in a building you don't own.

As regards settlements, I have no problem with people expanding settlements into areas where no nation state exists.