Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

KeepItLight

Sean.3516 wrote: »

This is an insane analogy. Your analogy is comparing unintentional civilian casualties with intentional war crimes.

Its only a war crime when others do it. When Israel do it, as they have done for past half-century, it's unintentional civilian casualties.

Absolutely disgusting and evil.

Cody montana

Utterly gutted.

jimmycrackcorm

Barry904 wrote: »

The Palestinians need to create a Guerilla army similar to the PIRA, the IRA to a lot of peoples surprise is actually known as one of the most effective and sophisticated guerilla armies of recent history despite being based in what was the most militarised zone on the planet at the time under constant surveillance with the greatest intelligence agencies in the world devoting most of their resources into defeating them.

The Palestinians seem to be barely able to land a kill on a soldier never mind get any chance of a pop at the top tier of the Israeli government/establishment, they need to sort their s*** out.

Barry904 wrote: »

In terms of a guerilla army they are exactly the kind of lads you would want to emulate.

Despite extensive bombing 1300 bombs on commercial targets in 1972 alone they managed to keep civilian casualties to a minimum 70% of their victims were security forces the rest were judges, politicians, loyalist paramilitaries and civilians etc.

The situation Hamas finds itself in is completely different from the IRA in NI.
Apart from the fact that the IRA was embedded in the local population, the Israelis have segregated the Palestinians and curtailed their ability to undertake operations within Israeli territory.

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Where did we get this idea that war should be a "a series of proportionate responses"?

The goal of every war is to neutralise the enemy. Neutralise meaning kill, wound or capture.
And Israel's enemy is the people firing those rockets.

The idea that Hamas and the PA should just get away with firing those rockets because they don't have an Iron Dome system to protect themselves from the return fire is asinine beyond belief.

There has never been a single war in which civilian casualties have been 100% avoided and the fact that one side is a lot better at protecting itself than the other is not an excuse for the other side to continue targeting those civilians without fear of any response.

So admittedly what Israel is doing is conducting an act of war, not self defense. Thanks for the clarification.

It's not a matter of policy. Now your just embellishing your argument with hyperbole.

It is indeed demonstrably a matter of policy: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/9/netanyahu-israel-rejects-pressure-not-to-build-in-jerusalem

This is an insane analogy. Your analogy is comparing unintentional civilian casualties with intentional war crimes.

You merely assume a lack of intention. Everything you argue is a negative, which makes for a pretty lazy bout of shifting the burden of proof, which then only takes evidence of Something to disprove Nothing. The IDF doesn’t have qualms about killing civilians:

https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/48000/mde150152009en.pdf

Snooker Loopy

Any Irish person who defends Israeli slaughter is an embarrassment to this country.

Montage of Feck

Housefree wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnYB5Qc30fo

We need to keep pushing for the Occupied Territories Bill to pass in Ireland.

In real life I have not met an Irish person unsympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Which makes me question some posters on here

I mostly support Israel, while recognising the failings of the current government there. The Israeli people have a liberal modern outlook with a society not much different from western Europe. Hamas on the other side are social and morally bankrupt
backwards.
Naturally I will support those I can relate to the most.

Scuid Mhór

Not great news coming out tonight. Sad to see such madness in the twenty-first century.

Delta2113

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

NYT reporting that Israeli troops have mounted a ground invasion of Gaza.

Our response in the face of a humanitarian catastrophe has been shameful. The Israeli ambassador should be expelled. Email your TDs.

- NYT are wrong and are jumping the gun.

KeepItLight

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Hamas on the other side are social and morally bankrupt

yeah, because they don't they share the same social values that are being pushed by the western imperialists they deserved to be wiped of the face of the planet.

evil and stupid

Montage of Feck

Snooker Loopy wrote: »

Any Irish person who defends Israeli slaughter is an embarrassment to this country.

Not much butthurt about the recent occupation of Armenian territory. Was there even a thread on here about it? The Armenians aren't that trendy, other than to fans of system of a down, I suppose.

Witcher

Delta2113 wrote: »

- NYT are wrong and are jumping the gun.

IDF have confirmed it themselves....

https://mobile.twitter.com/IDF/status/1392953390443991040

Sean.3516

namloc1980 wrote: »

Zionism was created in Europe in the late 19th century, yet we have posters here claiming the Jews have millennium long rights to the land there.

There have always been Jews native to Palestine/Holy Land/Judea whatever term you want to use for the region.
Arabs come from Arabia. That's why they're called Arabs. There were zero Arabs in Palestine before 600AD

namloc1980 wrote: »

I also love the bit in bold. Completely ignores the preceding decades where Zionists imported thousands of Jews in from Europe and the rise of Palestinian nationalism in the area and the Arab revolt against British rule.

Not sure what your point is. I'm well aware of the history of Zionism. I was simply stating that Arabs had an opportunity to form a neighbouring state alongside Israel and rejected it.

And also you talk of the Zionist movement like it was an invasion by European Jews. It was a decades long process starting in the 1870s of Jews from Europe purchasing land, usual from Arab or Ottoman landlords. Palestine was an Ottoman Empire province at the time. They bought crappy swampland, drained it and made it arable. At that stage the only ones who objected to them being there were nomadic Arab tribes who were always squatting on somebody's land anyway.

Palestinian "nationalism" in the 30s and 40s was a purely reactionary response to the British and to Jews who at this stage had made something resembling civilisation out of the place.
The problem with Arab nationalism was that Arabs hated Jews more than they wanted a nation.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Not much butthurt about the recent occupation of Armenian territory. Was there even a thread on here about it?

I'll need a tea with this Ted

namloc1980

Delta2113 wrote: »

- NYT are wrong and are jumping the gun.

What?? The IDF themselves confirmed ground attack in Gaza nearly an hour ago.

.

cnocbui

Montage of Feck wrote: »

I mostly support Israel, while recognising the failings of the current government there. The Israeli people have a liberal modern outlook with a society not much different from western Europe. Hamas on the other side are social and morally bankrupt
backwards.
Naturally I will support those I can relate to the most.

Well that's a nice simple outlook. :rolleyes:

Montage of Feck

KeepItLight wrote: »

yeah, because they don't they share the same social values that are being pushed by the western imperialists they deserved to be wiped of the face of the planet.

evil and stupid

The only people being wiped out in that part of the world are minorities such as the Yazidis.

Montage of Feck

namloc1980 wrote: »

What?? The IDF themselves confirmed ground attack in Gaza nearly an hour ago.

.

Good luck to them and good night.

Delta2113

namloc1980 wrote: »

What?? The IDF themselves confirmed ground attack in Gaza nearly an hour ago.

.

- That's a ground attack from Israel. No ground troops in Gaza so far.

Sean.3516

Overheal wrote: »

That Netanyahu's escalation of ethnic cleansing policies coincided very neatly with his drop in approval and failure to form a new government. Not rocket surgery.

Considering Israel has an election every five minutes regardless of what the Palestinians are playing at, I'm not sure what the connection is.

Also, what's rocket surgery?

Overheal wrote: »

On the contrary this very much relates to the violent crackdowns, evictions, acts of terrorism etc. against Palestinians from Israeli settlers and the IDF. Folly to argue the negative.

Evidence?

Encouraged by a poster suggestion and pushed by some grim twitter images, I have emailed my 4 local TDs to call for the expulsion of the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland. Feel free to copy the main body of the text and send to your TDs. It only takes a minute to send an email.

**Text**

As a constituent, I would like you to respectfully call for the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador to Ireland.

The grounds for this is the atrocities currently being committed by Israel and its reprehensible behaviour over many decades towards the Palestinian People

We were oppressed on this island for a many hundreds of years and I feel such a move to expel the ambassador in that context would be making an important statement on global scale. There are too many western powers remaining silent on the issue.

As you know previously, diplomatic relations have been not fantastic between Israel and Ireland so there is not a huge amount to lose however there is lot to gain on taking this stance. Hopefully other countries will be encouraged to follow suit.

Witcher

Delta2113 wrote: »

- That's a ground attack from Israel. No ground troops in Gaza so far.

Literally says 'in the Gaza Strip' lol

Direct from the IDF but no...you have the correct intel..christ above.

namloc1980

Delta2113 wrote: »

- That's a ground attack from Israel. No ground troops in Gaza so far.

It says ground troops attacking IN Gaza. You have proof this isn't happening?

wotzgoingon

This is what them poor Palestine people need straight to where ever the hell Israeli government meet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFV3FUlTzas

Sean.3516

Overheal wrote: »

It's a complete contradiction to suggest non-jews have equal rights when they have no equal Right to Return, or even the right to security of their property and belongings,

By non-Jews, I mean Israeli non-Jews.

Define "right of return".

Overheal wrote: »

or where we are, as yourself said, establishing rights that are "inherently and uniquely a Jewish right."

It's a single right. And the purpose was mainly symbolic and declarative. The goal of that clause was to simply say that Israel is a Jewish state founded for the safety and benefit of the Jews which it in fact was.

But you're concluding from this that the law results in discrimination against non-Jews yet you have yet to produce a single example of systemic discrimination against non-Jews in Israel.

Delta2113

Ground troops in Israel are attacking Gaza - can't make it any clearer.

Will troops cross over into Gaza?

Maybe - but this has not happened yet.

Read the IDF tweet again carefully.

Witcher

Delta2113 wrote: »

Ground troops in Israel are attacking Gaza - can't make it any clearer.

Will troops cross over into Gaza?

Maybe - but this has not happened yet.

Read the IDF tweet again carefully.

From the Wall Street Journal

There are ground troops in Gaza,” said Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, an Israeli military spokesman.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-steps-up-airstrikes-against-hamas-in-gaza-tries-to-contain-violence-at-home-11620900941

Hodors Appletart

Sean.3516 wrote: »

you have yet to produce a single example of systemic discrimination against non-Jews in Israel.

turn on the news pal

it's happening live on sky

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Considering Israel has an election every five minutes regardless of what the Palestinians are playing at, I'm not sure what the connection is.

Every 5 minutes? Evidence?

Also, what's rocket surgery?

Surgery on rockets.

Evidence?

This thread has gone over that in its totality. Violence erupted when the IDF assaulted people who were praying and those protesting the illegal settlements that had been condemned just days before that

https://twitter.com/UNHumanRights/status/1390688651525373958?s=20

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/10/world-reacts-after-israeli-forces-wound-hundreds-in-al-aqsa-raid

Which again of course coincides neatly with Netanyahu's pressure to form a government

https://www.ft.com/content/ae9c95ca-6a68-4667-847c-e07eebf14661

Which is slowly working in his favor. https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/05/12/netanyahu-gantz-partnership-back-on-table-officials-say/

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

By non-Jews, I mean Israeli non-Jews.

Whom I was referring to?

Define "right of return".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

It's a single right. And the purpose was mainly symbolic and declarative. The goal of that clause was to simply say that Israel is a Jewish state founded for the safety and benefit of the Jews which it in fact was.

But you're concluding from this that the law results in discrimination against non-Jews yet you have yet to produce a single example of systemic discrimination against non-Jews in Israel.

And yet that is, as you say, a singular example, giving Israeli-Jews a unique right not given to non-Jewish Israelis.

A single discriminating right in the system of law is still an act of systemic discrimination. Surely if I dove into Israeli statute and court jurisprudence, more examples would be enumerable.

Sean.3516

Overheal wrote: »

Utterly absurd claim, us having established that Arab muslims do not enjoy the same rights as Jews under Israeli law, that they enjoy additional rights that are as one user put it, "inherently and uniquely a Jewish right."

You keep trotting out that one line from the "Nation State" law as evidence of the supposedly brutal discrimination against the Arabs in Israel.

Yet in spite of this brutal discrimination, Arabs are sitting on Israel's supreme court, they're sitting in parliament where they wield sizeable influence, and they're volunteering for the military in large numbers...

Again the purpose of that law is to affirm that Israel is a Jewish State founded for the protection and benefit of Jews. Only Jews had the right to found Israel according to the law.

Now you can make of that will. You might think that claim is unfounded but the law does not take any rights away from Arabs who live in Israel.