Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

batman75

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The 1948 borders are irrelevant today. They could have worked at the time but were made unworkable for two reasons:

1.) The Arabs never established a state within the borders they were given.
2.) The Arabs with the help of surrounding countries launched an all out war violating Israel's borders.

There was absolutely no way Israel could exist in a secure way in the 1948 borders after the Israeli-Arab War.



Okay, so why doesn't Israel just exterminate all of the Arabs living within it's current borders?
What's more why don't they launch an all out invasion of Gaza and the West Bank and annex the whole area and eliminate every Arab? They certainly have the power to do so. Why don't they?



No. It was Mahmoud Abbas flexing to avoid losing an election to Hamas. The issue over 4 houses in East Jerusalem was a private legal dispute that nobody really cares about.


Do you oppose the Palestinians firing rockets at Israeli civilian areas?[/QUOTE

Stop defending the indefensible. You cannot compare Hamas actions to those of the IDF. It’s like comparing a Mom and Pop grocery store to a Walmart.

jimmycrackcorm

Northernlily wrote: »

Encouraged by a poster suggestion and pushed by some grim twitter images, I have emailed my 4 local TDs to call for the expulsion of the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland. Feel free to copy the main body of the text and send to your TDs. It only takes a minute to send an email.

**Text**

As a constituent, I would like you to respectfully call for the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador to Ireland.

The grounds for this is the atrocities currently being committed by Israel and its reprehensible behaviour over many decades towards the Palestinian People

I don't agree with this, as our strength as a nation is our ability to exert external influence above our stature. The fact that the Irish ambassador gets called in by the Israelis to give out to is a sign of that.

But the main reason is if you use this logic, then we'd have a long list of countries that we'd have to cut diplomatic ties with. E.g. Russia over Crimea, Turkey with the Kurds, the Saudis for Yemen; never mind getting round to the UK and the USA for what they get up to.

Why should Isreal be the one getting special treatment?

Housefree

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't agree with this, as our strength as a nation is our ability to exert external influence above our stature. The fact that the Irish ambassador gets called in by the Israelis to give out to is a sign of that.

Ireland is a massive battleground for Israel, we nearly got the Occupied Territories Bill passed and once we do it will have a knock on effect throughout Europe. Ireland will be leading the way against apartheid. Don't forget our Dunne's Stores workers who fought against South African apartheid.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_Territories_Bill

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The 1948 borders are irrelevant today. They could have worked at the time but were made unworkable for two reasons:

1.) The Arabs never established a state within the borders they were given.
2.) The Arabs with the help of surrounding countries launched an all out war violating Israel's borders.

There was absolutely no way Israel could exist in a secure way in the 1948 borders after the Israeli-Arab War.

Who are the Arabs here? You said Israel was 20% Arab, was that 20% part of the effort to establish a state?

Okay, so why doesn't Israel just exterminate all of the Arabs living within it's current borders?

Clearly: a lack of opportunity. They'd love to wipe them out, but only cannot because of international pressure. The ultra-right nationalists leading this ethnic cleansing, are, anyway.

What's more why don't they launch an all out invasion of Gaza and the West Bank and annex the whole area and eliminate every Arab? They certainly have the power to do so. Why don't they?

But they do annex and do intend to annex: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/8/13/netanyahu-says-west-bank-annexation-plans-still-on-the-table

It's again a matter of what they can get away with politically. To wit, they have the political stature at the moment to wage a ground war in Gaza without international reprisal.

No. It was Mahmoud Abbas flexing to avoid losing an election to Hamas. The issue over 4 houses in East Jerusalem was a private legal dispute that nobody really cares about.

I think there's a war erupting in Gaza right now that demonstrates otherwise. In fact, an intense care for the situation is demonstrated by this very thread, and by you gracing us with your presence as well. Clearly, people do care about it.

Do you oppose the Palestinians firing rockets at Israeli civilian areas?

Naturally.

Royal Irish

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Do you oppose the Palestinians firing rockets at Israeli civilian areas?

I don't oppose it. I'd do the same if I was Palestinian living under apartheid.

SafeSurfer

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't agree with this, as our strength as a nation is our ability to exert external influence above our stature. The fact that the Irish ambassador gets called in by the Israelis to give out to is a sign of that.

But the main reason is if you use this logic, then we'd have a long list of countries that we'd have to cut diplomatic ties with. E.g. Russia over Crimea, Turkey with the Kurds, the Saudis for Yemen; never mind getting round to the UK and the USA for what they get up to.

Why should Isreal be the one getting special treatment?

I think this conflict resonates with Irish people because the main ingredients are:
Land
Religion
Oppression

Overheal

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

so i dont really know a whole lot about this conflict only thats its being going on years, and pub talk!

is it true the british empire carved out an area and decided that that was israel? could it have been in africa initially where they decided to carve out a place?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine

The_Kew_Tour

namloc1980 wrote: »

.

People being terrorized in their homes by the IDF in Gaza tonight. Unbelievable that people here support this.

Watching videos like this always brings me back down earth and makes me realise that while it aint perfect here, it's Paradise compared to so much of this earth.

And its sad as its one of the most stunning parts of the world I was ever in.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's anti-Semitism.

For some reason, many people - particularly young people - are obsessed with "Palestinians" (you'll note the constant dismissal, harassment, ad hominem attacks, group mentality, non-objectivity etc.). It's almost a form of unquestionable political religion.

It's almost a non-questionable religion in and of itself. You will find no criticism of Hamas, even though they are the political equivalent of ISIS and, indeed, support ISIS.

So, we have this weird cognitive dissonance going on. Condemnation of Islamic radicalism in Europe but, when the Israelis encounter exactly the same kind of radicalism and threats to their very existence, this is given the apologia of "it's Israel's fault".

There are also many other minorities and communities around the entire planet that people could care about - none of which get the same obsession as Palestinians.

And, for me at least, as someone who previously was a disciple to the "Palestinian cause", I realize now it is only a mask for anti-Semitism. If it were not Jews running Israel, but another variety of Muslim, for example, I'm absolutely certain the cause would not have gathered the same traction.

I could go on. But suffice to say, this is enough food for thought in the now.

Who do you think you are fooling though? Europe isn’t bombing Palestinians. Islamic violence in Europe is a different beast.

The defenders of Israel are in fact closer to woke people, except Israel is the uncriticizable group.

nocoverart

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Biden had got off to a good start domestically with his handling of the vaccination programme and getting stimulus packages approved.
His first international incident and his response is one of weakness and bewilderment. Unfortunately for all of us, this response will only serve to embolden tyrants everywhere from Russia to North Korea not to mention China.
Simply no leadership. A further blow to American prestige.

That’s it in a nutshell. Done great with the Vaccine rollout and you’d be almost forgiven to not know who the American president is, no controversy, all good.


But the first whiff of a real life crisis and looks like a lost puppy wondering where its owners are gone. Old and senile probably isn’t a great idea for a World Leader.

SafeSurfer

Housefree wrote: »

Ireland is a massive battleground for Israel, we nearly got the Occupied Territories Bill passed and once we do it will have a knock on effect throughout Europe. Ireland will be leading the way against apartheid. Don't forget our Dunne's Stores workers who fought against South African apartheid.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_Territories_Bill

Is it fair to say that the Israeli conflict is more complicated and international support for Israel is much greater than was the case for South Africa?
As fair as I remember the Dunnes workers and various sporting boycotts were the exception rather than the rule and South Africa was a popular destination for Irish emigrants in the 80s.

Sean.3516

Overheal wrote: »

Then how come it is "basically controlled" by the IDF, and not the PLO? The IDF are there, allowing these people to act violently with impunity.

They're governed by their own in the Palestinian Authority.

Israel just maintains control of the security situation because if they don't they get waves of suicide bombers.

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

They're governed by their own in the Palestinian Authority.

Israel just maintains control of the security situation because if they don't they get waves of suicide bombers.

Evidence?

Sean.3516

Overheal wrote: »

This thread has gone over that in its totality. Violence erupted when the IDF assaulted people who were praying and those protesting the illegal settlements that had been condemned just days before that

https://twitter.com/UNHumanRights/status/1390688651525373958?s=20

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/10/world-reacts-after-israeli-forces-wound-hundreds-in-al-aqsa-raid

Which again of course coincides neatly with Netanyahu's pressure to form a government

There were people in the from the mosque hurling stones at Jews passing by! Israeli police show up to shut it down and you see that as "IDF attacks mosque"?

Would you ever do some research beyond the corrupt UN and the AlJazeera propaganda run by terrorist sympathisers.

As regards Netanyahu, this conflict does not help him. He was on the cusp of forming a government with support from one of the Arab parties and now this has all imploded.

Sean.3516

Overheal wrote: »

Evidence?

Gaza 2005.

Complete Israeli pull out. All settlements abandoned. What does Israel receive in return?

Suicide bombers and rockets.

So you'll have to forgive Israel for not taking the Palestinians at their word when they say they want "land for peace".

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

There were people in the from the mosque hurling stones at Jews passing by! Israeli police show up to shut it down and you see that as "IDF attacks mosque"?

Evidence?

Housefree

Sean.3516 wrote: »

There were people in the from the mosque hurling stones at Jews passing by! Israeli police show up to shut it down and you see that as "IDF attacks mosque"?

Would you ever do some research beyond the corrupt UN and the AlJazeera propaganda run by terrorist sympathisers.

As regards Netanyahu, this conflict does not help him. He was on the cusp of forming a government with support from one of the Arab parties and now this has all imploded.

Human Rights Watch and B'Tselem have both declared it Apartheid

https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid

Israel’s regime of apartheid and occupation is inextricably bound up in human rights violations

https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/04/27/abusive-israeli-policies-constitute-crimes-apartheid-persecution

Witcher

Sean.3516 wrote: »

There were people in the from the mosque hurling stones at Jews passing by! Israeli police show up to shut it down and you see that as "IDF attacks mosque"?

Would you ever do some research beyond the corrupt UN and the AlJazeera propaganda run by terrorist sympathisers.

As regards Netanyahu, this conflict does not help him. He was on the cusp of forming a government with support from one of the Arab parties and now this has all imploded.

'Shut it down' says he and them using CS gas, rubber bullets and stun grenades on people.

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Gaza 2005.

Complete Israeli pull out. All settlements abandoned. What does Israel receive in return?

Suicide bombers and rockets.

So you'll have to forgive Israel for not taking the Palestinians at their word when they say they want "land for peace".

This is your conjecture, a summary, but where is the evidence?

The_Kew_Tour

https://twitter.com/gecicisecirgen/status/1392997428891209734?s=19

https://twitter.com/kthsmole/status/1392996409620713474?s=19

No words

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Would you ever do some research beyond the corrupt UN and the AlJazeera propaganda run by terrorist sympathisers.

Racking up another logical fallacy foul with argumentum ad hominem. The onus is upon you to disprove their journalistic claims, perhaps by presenting some form of countermanding evidence?

As regards Netanyahu, this conflict does not help him. He was on the cusp of forming a government with support from one of the Arab parties and now this has all imploded.

I don't see any evidence he was "on the cusp" of anything more than retirement:

https://www.ft.com/content/ae9c95ca-6a68-4667-847c-e07eebf14661
https://www.axios.com/netanyahu-fails-to-form-government-mandate-ba19746d-e9cd-4874-b5d3-38de20698763.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/world/middleeast/netanyahu-government-israel-election.html

Sean.3516

batman75 wrote: »

Stop defending the indefensible. You cannot compare Hamas actions to those of the IDF. It’s like comparing a Mom and Pop grocery store to a Walmart.

So you don't want to answer a single question I asked you. Okay.

Perhaps Israel should deactivate the Iron Dome to make it easier on the Palestinians?

The truth is that Palestinian terrorists know exactly what will happen when they fire rockets at Israel. They know Israel has no choice but to counterattack which will inevitably result in civilians being killed.
They don't mind because they know the West has no shortage of useful idiots who'll make their excuses for them.

Sean.3516

Overheal wrote: »

Evidence?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinians-stone-israeli-car-which-crashes-jerusalem-seethes-2021-05-10/

wes

Israeli gov chooses violence again:
Israel rejects Egypt's ceasefire proposal for conflict with Gaza


Israeli gov is the aggressor in this conflict and chooses violence again and again. That is the 2nd cease fire Israeli gov has rejected.

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

So you don't want to answer a single question I asked you. Okay.

Perhaps Israel should deactivate the Iron Dome to make it easier on the Palestinians?

The truth is that Palestinian terrorists know exactly what will happen when they fire rockets at Israel. They know Israel has no choice but to counterattack which will inevitably result in civilians being killed.
They don't mind because they know the West has no shortage of useful idiots who'll make their excuses for them.

Please explain? Cease fire has been on the table from the Palestinians. Long term there's no reason they can not invest more heavily in the iron dome to get the success rate closer to six sigma. There are clearly other choices. Israel is choosing the pro-bloodshed option.

y0ssar1an22

Overheal wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine

i appreciate the links but as always though never to rely on them :pac: plus the articles are too long.

very basically, there is a conflict over land. who owns the land? that should put any argument to bed.

if there is any legitimate argument over who owns the land, then you need to go back to see what's what.

and that is something no one can ever answer.

just say for example that the various native indian tribes reclaimed all their land, would you support that?

all the catholic farmers who lost their land?

the indigenous aussies, can they reclaim their land?


it seems like there was a cut off at some point in time, decided by the powers that be, that this is the way things are now.

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

There were people in the from the mosque hurling stones at Jews passing by! Israeli police show up to shut it down and you see that as "IDF attacks mosque"?

Sean.3516 wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinians-stone-israeli-car-which-crashes-jerusalem-seethes-2021-05-10/

This incident you linked to has nothing to do with the other, this incident with the white sedan happened "On a busy street outside Jerusalem's walled Old City"

al-Aqsa mosque is inside the Old City.

Why would the IDF need to spray the crowd with rubber bullets and tear gas at al-Aqsa, inside the Old City, for an isolated incident outside the Old City?

All this evidence of yours says about al-Aqsa is this:

"The incident took place as hundreds of Palestinians clashed with Israeli police outside al-Aqsa mosque in the Old City in violence that coincided with Jerusalem Day, when Israel celebrates its capture of East Jerusalem in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war."

There is no mention of stone throwing at al-Aqsa.

Please try again?

Overheal

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

i appreciate the links but as always though never to rely on them :pac: plus the articles are too long.

If that's too long this conflict's not for you

But yes, land, colonialism and religious entanglement

wes

Astonishing stuff in the US house on congress:
https://twitter.com/RepAOC/status/1393005737668972546?s=20

A Palestinian American Woman getting to talk about was is being done to her people, in the US house of congress:
https://twitter.com/People4Bernie/status/1392978125223469057?s=20

Finally Ilhan Omar who racist Zionist have viciously smeared in the past:
https://twitter.com/Ilhan/status/1392982831995961344?s=20

The best of America standing up for human rights. Its enough to give you a tiny shred of hope.

Overheal

wes wrote: »

Israeli gov chooses violence again:
Israel rejects Egypt's ceasefire proposal for conflict with Gaza


Israeli gov is the aggressor in this conflict and chooses violence again and again. That is the 2nd cease fire Israeli gov has rejected.

Yedioth Ahronoth quoted high-ranking Israeli political sources as saying that the Israeli response to the Egyptian proposal was: "Do not talk to us now, we are collecting the price and reinforcing deterrence."

Ah, so how many Palestinians must die before the vengeance has been delivered?

edit: "Gaza’s Health Ministry said 109 Palestinians, including 28 children, had been killed by Thursday night. It said 621 people have been wounded."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/13/israel-gaza-conflict-latest-updates/