Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Brussels Sprout

nullzero wrote: »

Has anyone on this thread actually made ANY anti semitic remarks at all?

Or do you simply appropriate any criticism of Israeli policy in relation to Palestine as inherently anti semitic?

eskimohunt wrote: »

Most people don't air their racism in public. That's quite obvious.

Instead, it lurks underneath.

So, you're effectively saying: "there may be no actual evidence for my claim but it's still true because I'm basing it on my assumption that any criticism of Israel is rooted in anti-semtism. There could be no other possible reason for criticising the nation of Israel at this very time except for the hatred of the Jewish people".

gtfo here with that nonsense.

lulublue22

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most of the world hates Israel. It’s hardly just the left. And the narrow perspective is all yours.

I don’t hate Israel. I do however find it extremely distasteful how the anti- semitic slur is banded around anytime someone questions Israeli actions towards Palestine. I also find it morally reprehensible that a country with the 3rd largest army , nuclear capability and longterm financial and moral support from the US can refuse ceasefire overtures twice within the last number of days and can target with apparent impunity the population of what is little more than an enclave under the guise of protection from Hamas. It is a totally disproportionate response . The number of non combatants killed in particular children is disgraceful.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

You go ahead and post them. All 9 Israelis killed in this conflict against the 200 or so men women and children slain that were Palestinians. Go ahead. Nobody is stopping you so your whataboutism is pointless.

I don't have a dog in this race, but it does seem like you're attempting to suggest that the difference in casualty numbers is some sort of commentary on the morality of either side. I'm not sure I buy the idea that Hamas were looking to keep casualty numbers as low as possible when they fired 1600 rockets into Israel.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have a dog in this race, but it does seem like you're attempting to suggest that the difference in casualty numbers is some sort of commentary on the morality of either side. I'm not sure I buy the idea that Hamas were looking to keep casualty numbers as low as possible when they fired 1600 rockets into Israel.

I am not saying they are. But the ends are the ends. Israel is a nuclear power using precision guided bombs to kill children. That's not the right response to terrorism, rocket volleys.

igCorcaigh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't have a dog in this race, but it does seem like you're attempting to suggest that the difference in casualty numbers is some sort of commentary on the morality of either side. I'm not sure I buy the idea that Hamas were looking to keep casualty numbers as low as possible when they fired 1600 rockets into Israel.

Of course not. The relatively low causality count in Israel is due to their overwhelming defence capacity.

I remember back in the 1990's when Israeli civilians were murdered by suicide bombings on an almost daily basis.
People waiting at a bus stop, or enjoying a family meal in a restaurant.
Absolutely horrific.

After that, they built this wall to protect their borders.
Even still, there have been fairly recent random stabbing attacks or car rammings.

Signore Fancy Pants

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I haven't seen anything substantial from your posts at all, with respect.

All I'm reading, time and time again, is how smart you think you are compared to other people. :rolleyes:

You know what, you are absolutely spot on.

I apologise for soapboxing and telling you that you haven't a clue, thats not the right thing to be doing.

My issue is that I have no tolerance for people who do not consider all sides to a situation, who appear to be blinded by their own bias and refuse to see the wider concerns.

My experience tells me that both sides are at fault with this sustained conflict, and I'm not just talking about the last few days. I also acknowledge that ordinary individuals on both sides are suffering because of various actors actions. This only propels the hatred for each side and will last for generations.

War and conflict is an emotive subject, its easy to be one sided. Its hard to admit your chosen side (if you choose one) is not at fault.

There are a myriad of issues which neither side are interested in facing, conflict is the last resort for people who do not admit they may be in the wrong.

The only realistic solution to this is through dialogue, like it or not, agree or disagree, there's no other way. Without this, all that is certain is death and the potential for a regional conflict.

This may spread to other parts of the world, in that case, everyone loses.

A grown up long term solution would be for Israel to compromise and allow Palestinians to have unestricted movement in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem. Allow them autonomy over their areas, allow a democratic solution and the rights of free trade.

Otherwise, Palestinians are basically animals stuck in a cage, that makes them angry, that makes them rebel, that makes them an issue.

Give the Palestinian people enough, make them feel human and it may come to pass that they may self police groups such as Hamas. Nobody wants sustained conflict. If given a quality of life without prejudice, Israel may in time not be a target.

There's no easy solution but all sides need to start somewhere....again.

I will come back to this once I have more time.

tom1ie

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

You know what, you are absolutely spot on.

I apologise for soapboxing and telling you that you haven't a clue, thats not the right thing to be doing.

My issue is that I have no tolerance for people who do not consider all sides to a situation, who appear to be blinded by their own bias and refuse to see the wider concerns.

My experience tells me that both sides are at fault with this sustained conflict, and I'm not just talking about the last few days. I also acknowledge that ordinary individuals on both sides are suffering because of various actors actions. This only propels the hatred for each side and will last for generations.

War and conflict is an emotive subject, its easy to be one sided. Its hard to admit your chosen side (if you choose one) is not at fault.

There are a myriad of issues which neither side are interested in facing, conflict is the last resort for people who do not admit they may be in the wrong.

The only realistic solution to this is through dialogue, like it or not, agree or disagree, there's no other way. Without this, all that is certain is death and the potential for a regional conflict.

This may spread to other parts of the world, in that case, everyone loses.

A grown up long term solution would be for Israel to compromise and allow Palestinians to have unestricted movement in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem. Allow them autonomy over their areas, allow a democratic solution and the rights of free trade.

Otherwise, Palestinians are basically animals stuck in a cage, that makes them angry, that makes them rebel, that makes them an issue.

Give the Palestinian people enough, make them feel human and it may come to pass that they may self police groups such as Hamas. Nobody wants sustained conflict. If given a quality of life without prejudice, Israel may in time not be a target.

There's no easy solution but all sides need to start somewhere....again.

I will come back to this once I have more time.

Problem with this is when the Palestinians are given free movement so are Hamas who move among the Palestinians. This means more carbombs etc in Israel so that's not gonna happen, therefore on it goes unfortunately.

igCorcaigh

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

You know what, you are absolutely spot on.

I apologise for soapboxing and telling you that you haven't a clue, thats not the right thing to be doing.

My issue is that I have no tolerance for people who do not consider all sides to a situation, who appear to be blinded by their own bias and refuse to see the wider concerns.

My experience tells me that both sides are at fault with this sustained conflict, and I'm not just talking about the last few days. I also acknowledge that ordinary individuals on both sides are suffering because of various actors actions. This only propels the hatred for each side and will last for generations.

War and conflict is an emotive subject, its easy to be one sided. Its hard to admit your chosen side (if you choose one) is not at fault.

There are a myriad of issues which neither side are interested in facing, conflict is the last resort for people who do not admit they may be in the wrong.

The only realistic solution to this is through dialogue, like it or not, agree or disagree, there's no other way. Without this, all that is certain is death and the potential for a regional conflict.

This may spread to other parts of the world, in that case, everyone loses.

A grown up long term solution would be for Israel to compromise and allow Palestinians to have unestricted movement in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem. Allow them autonomy over their areas, allow a democratic solution and the rights of free trade.

Otherwise, Palestinians are basically animals stuck in a cage, that makes them angry, that makes them rebel, that makes them an issue.

Give the Palestinian people enough, make them feel human and it may come to pass that they may self police groups such as Hamas. Nobody wants sustained conflict. If given a quality of life without prejudice, Israel may in time not be a target.

There's no easy solution but all sides need to start somewhere....again.

I will come back to this once I have more time.

Spot on. This is how I feel about the situation too.
And you can transpose that onto many conflicts the world over.

Thank you for expressing the words in a better way than I can.

igCorcaigh

tom1ie wrote: »

Problem with this is when the Palestinians are given free movement so are Hamas who move among the Palestinians. This means more carbombs etc in Israel so that's not gonna happen, therefore on it goes unfortunately.

There will be that risk, but slowly, over years, de-escalation will happen.
It is natural for people to prefer peace over war.

The "peace dividend", remember?
Investment will flow in. People will be more prosperous and secure.
And gradually, over time, the hatred will end.

Mad_maxx

Cheerful S wrote: »

Hamas is at war with Israel. Iran is the number one enemy for Israel. There common cause to support Hamas fight.

There no bad blood between them, factions in Syria actively supported by UAE and Saudi Arabia hate Iran. Arab- Muslim faiths seems to not factor at all for Gaza.

The Saudis appear to hate Iran more than Israel

Mad_maxx

fvp4 wrote: »

You are confused here. Those organisations do not exist in Palestine. They did exist in Syria recently where they were on the side of those wishing Assad overthrown.



The state of Israel has 200 nukes, and the 3rd largest army in the world. That’s the real danger, and of course plenty of Israeli politicians have called for the ethnic cleansing of Arabs in Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/

Nearly half of Jewish Israelis agree that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, and a solid majority (79 percent) maintain that Jews in Israel should be given preferential treatment, according to a Pew Research Center in Israel survey published on Tuesday.

With that kind of support it’s probably going to happen sooner or later.

I'd have thought the following nations all had larger - more powerful armies?

France
UK
Russia

Assuming China have the second most powerful?

jmreire

namloc1980 wrote: »

We never see secondary explosions from these buildings the IDF are demolishing. I mean if, as they claim, they are Hamas weapons stores we should see secondary explosions from those munitions. Have watched a number of these attacks on live streams and there is zero evidence of secondary explosions.

One possible reason for that is that any weapons / explosives will have been removed long before any bombing starts. In Kosovo / Serbia, all the arms / munitions were removed from their usual depots...and likewise, all military barracks were empty of Soldiers, and this was ever before the the bombing started. There was however an enormous amount of white goods ( fridges, washing machines etc) all dolled up in military camouflage and using wavin pipes as gun barrels, that were blown up.

Mr_Muffin

I'm currently trying to learn about the conflict and its history.

I was surprised to read that fishermen are only allowed to fish 6 nautical miles out from the Gaza strip due to an Isreal blockade (the article is from 2019 but it seems this is still the case).

I don't understand how Isreal have the power to do this? 6 miles seems like nothing. If Egypt and Isreal won't let people cross the borders, then the only option to travel outside of their borders is to travel via the sea, but they can't even do that? What I am missing here.

Signore Fancy Pants

tom1ie wrote: »

Problem with this is when the Palestinians are given free movement so are Hamas who move among the Palestinians. This means more carbombs etc in Israel so that's not gonna happen, therefore on it goes unfortunately.

Agreed, this is a huge issue. It will take individual Palestinians to see that Hamas is not acting in their best interests or at least will not succeed in giving the Palestinians what they want.

Hamas hasn't worked, neither the military nor political wings but religion and secularism is a hard tick to remove.

Palestinian kids as young as 9 (maybe even younger) have attempted to stab and kill Israeli security forces. There's something seriously wrong for that to happen. Military and paramilitary tit for tat isnt working for either side.

namloc1980

igCorcaigh wrote: »

There will be that risk, but slowly, over years, de-escalation will happen.
It is natural for people to prefer peace over war.

The "peace dividend", remember?
Investment will flow in. People will be more prosperous and secure.
And gradually, over time, the hatred will end.

It won't happen. Israel has built walls all around the West Bank and severely restricts movement of Palestinians between the over 150 "islands" they live in on the West Bank. These areas are surrounded by Israeli military occupation and Israeli settlements. The red on the map is where Palestinians live and they're movement is heavily restricted within those areas only. Movement between them is subject to Israeli military permission and oppression. These non-contigous islands make it virtually impossible for them to develop any sort of thriving economy and so the cycle continues. The Israeli government will continue to keep them penned in as long as the international community tolerates it.

namloc1980

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

I'm currently trying to learn about the conflict and its history.

I was surprised to read that fishermen are only allowed to fish 6 nautical miles out from the Gaza strip due to an Isreal blockade (the article is from 2019 but it seems this is still the case).

I don't understand how Isreal have the power to do this? 6 miles seems like nothing. If Egypt and Isreal won't let people cross the borders, then the only option to travel outside of their borders is to travel via the sea, but they can't even do that? What I am missing here.

You're missing nothing. Gaza is under Israeli, and to a much lesser extent, Egyptian blockade. It is in reality a massive open air prison.

igCorcaigh

namloc1980 wrote: »

It won't happen. Israel has built walls all around the West Bank and severely restricts movement of Palestinians between the over 150 "islands" they live in on the West Bank that are surrounded by Israeli military occupation and Israeli settlements. The red on the map is where Palestinians live and they're movement is heavily restricted within those areas only. Movement between them is subject to Israeli military permission and oppresdion. These non-contigous islands make it virtually impossible for them to develop any sort of thriving economy and so the cycle continues. The Israeli government will continue to keep them penned in as long as the international community tolerates it.

This is a great example of how Israel can start giving back concessions; rockets are not coming from the West Bank.
This division of the community is clearly wrong, and has to be addressed in the peace negations.

Away from the current conflict, let pressure be born on Israel for this.
Let with international community see clearly this injustice.

Israel needs to feel the pain of it's crimes; the firing of rockets from Gaza only serves to help Israel in its defence argument.

Montage of Feck

Lougho wrote: »

From the river to the sea....

Do people here actually want that? The destruction of the Israeli state?

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/GravelInstitute/status/1393599986319958020?s=20

Signore Fancy Pants

namloc1980 wrote: »

It won't happen. Israel has built walls all around the West Bank and severely restricts movement of Palestinians between the over 150 "islands" they live in on the West Bank that are surrounded by Israeli military occupation and Israeli settlements. The red on the map is where Palestinians live and they're movement is heavily restricted within those areas only. Movement between them is subject to Israeli military permission and oppresdion. These non-contigous islands make it virtually impossible for them to develop any sort of thriving economy and so the cycle continues. The Israeli government will continue to keep them penned in as long as the international community tolerates it.

This is precisely where Israel needs to change. How can it be possible for Palestinians to accept that set up? They can't, that is why frustration leads to conflict.

Israel literally giving Palestinians an excuse to rebel, which justifies an Israeli response....its a sh1t sandwich and everyone is getting a bite.

Just to reinforce my comment of "Palestinians self policing Hamas".....there is evidence to support this narrative, particularly in Lebanon. In general, the Lebanese population has lost support for Hezbollah, at least contemporary Hezbollah.

Hezbollah of the past had a tangible function as the resistance. However, their regional efforts have moved away from their resistance narrative. Recruiting and funding from inside Lebanon has been an issue over the last decade. People aren't interested in proxy wars and tye Lebanese have no appetite to enter into conflict with Israel, it costs top much money and Lebanon is fcuked as it is....therefore unbridled support for Hezbollah has wained, this is too possible with Hamas.

igCorcaigh

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Do people here actually want that? The destruction of the Israeli state?

No. Even the Palestinian representatives accept the existence of Israel, it is only certain areas of stolen land that they want the right to return to.
And of course, the cessation of ongoing illegal expansion.

tom1ie

igCorcaigh wrote: »

There will be that risk, but slowly, over years, de-escalation will happen.
It is natural for people to prefer peace over war.

The "peace dividend", remember?
Investment will flow in. People will be more prosperous and secure.
And gradually, over time, the hatred will end.

Oh yeah I agree alright but Israel will never allow Palestinian free movement as it will put Israel's people at immediate risk to Hammas.
Completely agree that risk diminishes as time goes on, but at the start it's a high risk Hammas will have free travel to operate in Israel.

igCorcaigh

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

This is precisely where Israel needs to change. How can it be possible for Palestinians to accept that set up? They can't, that is why frustration leads to conflict.

Israel literally giving Palestinians an excuse to rebel, which justifies an Israeli response....its a sh1t sandwich and everyone is getting a bite.

Just to reinforce my comment of "Palestinians self policing Hamas".....there is evidence to support this narrative, particularly in Lebanon. In general, the Lebanese population has lost support for Hezbollah, at least contemporary Hezbollah.

Hezbollah of the past had a tangible function as the resistance. However, their regional efforts have moved away from their resistance narrative. Recruiting and funding from inside Lebanon has been an issue over the last decade. People aren't interested in proxy wars and tye Lebanese have no appetite to enter into conflict with Israel, it costs top much money and Lebanon is fcuked as it is....therefore unbridled support for Hezbollah has wained, this is too possible with Hamas.

It would have been interesting to see how the elections in the OT had gone ahead, had they been allowed, prior to the current cycle of conflict.

igCorcaigh

tom1ie wrote: »

Oh yeah I agree alright but Israel will never allow Palestinian free movement as it will put Israel's people at immediate risk to Hammas.
Completely agree that risk diminishes as time goes on, but at the start it's a high risk Hammas will have free travel to operate in Israel.

Yes, and the logic of Israeli policy is to not accept any risk of this.
Yet the conflict continues.

It can be done gradually; this is the only way out IMHO.,

tom1ie

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Agreed, this is a huge issue. It will take individual Palestinians to see that Hamas is not acting in their best interests or at least will not succeed in giving the Palestinians what they want.

Hamas hasn't worked, neither the military nor political wings but religion and secularism is a hard tick to remove.

Palestinian kids as young as 9 (maybe even younger) have attempted to stab and kill Israeli security forces. There's something seriously wrong for that to happen. Military and paramilitary tit for tat isnt working for either side.

So for this to solve itself the Palestinians have to get rid of Hamas which Hamas won't allow to happen even if the Palestinians wanted it to.
Israel would have to appeal directly to the Palestinians and say we will allow free travel and stop blockading your land if you turn on Hammas.
Not gonna happen I'd say.

igCorcaigh

tom1ie wrote: »

So for this to solve itself the Palestinians have to get rid of Hamas which Hamas won't allow to happen even if the Palestinians wanted it to.
Israel would have to appeal directly to the Palestinians and say we will allow free travel and stop blockading your land if you turn on Hammas.
Not gonna happen I'd say.

The two sides are so locked into their own logic, that the only way out from what I can see is international intervention.
The political leaders of the world, particularly the most powerful one, have failed.

There was a great example by a poster earlier, of Italian dock workers refusing to allow the shipments of weapons to Israel.
We need an international bottom up movement, similar to that with South Africa, to make Israel feel the economic pain of its current strategy.

Basically, people need to create a bit of a ruckus.

Itssoeasy

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GravelInstitute/status/1393599986319958020?s=20

Well those quotes are enlightening. Now obviously those quotes don’t represent Israel and the Jewish people as a whole but they do reveal the mindset of some quarters and it’s not a pleasant.

Overheal

If Israel wanted, at any point, they could have went fully in to Iron Dome defense technologies, way more overlapping coverage, etc. and created an effective null-field for any ballistic exchange of fire. Instead, Israel uses the technology as a means to inflict escalating amounts of savage brutality, by firing advanced guided munitions at civilian populations, discriminately and with precision, with stated aims of terrorism: "Stop supporting Hamas, or we will do this to all of you."

Someone invented the concept of Iron Dome as something to target a lasting peace by ending the exchange of bombardments. It's been used as an effective means of unilateral overkill.

tom1ie

igCorcaigh wrote: »

The two sides are so locked into their own logic, that the only way out from what I can see is international intervention.
The political leaders of the world, particularly the most powerful one, have failed.

There was a great example by a poster earlier, of Italian dock workers refusing to allow the shipments of weapons to Israel.
We need an international bottom up movement, similar to that with South Africa, to make Israel feel the economic pain of its current strategy.

Basically, people need to create a bit of a ruckus.

Agreed, but then, let's say the international community puts pressure on Israel by boycotting produce or whatever means, and then Israel allows free travel which leads to Hammas planting car bombs which blow up synagogues in Tel Aviv.
We are back to square one and Israel won't go for that option again any time soon.

Hamas need to be dealt with after Israel are stopped indiscriminately killing civilians.

igCorcaigh

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Well those quotes are enlightening. Now obviously those quotes don’t represent Israel and the Jewish people as a whole but they do reveal the mindset of some quarters and it’s not a pleasant.

Oh, there are definitely some unsavoury tones in some Israeli political voices. I don't think they are representative of the general population, but they are there.

I remember listening to an Israeli radio show during the 2014 conflict, where a speaker, unchallenged, talked about how Israeli lives were not to be compared to "some Ahmed".

On the other hand, there is a Left movement in Israel who oppose the government policy, but do not get so much exposure on international media.