Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Odhinn

thomas 123 wrote: »

Just going to correct myself - should say Israeli state - tarring all Israeli people with the same brush is incorrect and I am of the opinion many settlers go to the West Bank for a better quality of life.

There are incentives provided to those who move to the occupied territories, which is in violation of the Geneva conventions.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/economics-heart-israeli-settlements

thomas 123

Odhinn wrote: »

There are incentives provided to those who move to the occupied territories, which is in violation of the Geneva conventions.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/economics-heart-israeli-settlements

Yep there is a host of benifits. At one stage they even subcidised mortgages!

Timberrrrrrrr

xhomelezz wrote: »

Haven't got a clue what was your earlier question.

Don't worry about it, others know what I mean.

xhomelezz

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Don't worry about it, others know what I mean.

Ah ok.

xhomelezz

Any Hamás grilling on the table or they'll walk free.

Odhinn

xhomelezz wrote: »

Any Hamás grilling on the table or they'll walk free.

?

Selenophile

Overheal wrote: »

A Jewish Ethno-State of Israel, born purposefully of genocide, does not have a right to exist, can everyone agree? Who disagrees?

That's exactly the position of Iran, Hamas and some (maybe majority of) Palestinians.
That's exactly the excuse for hardliners and far right factions among Israeli Jews.


More importantly, when you say that Israel does not have right to exist, it implies two or three possible (final ?) solutions for the Jews currently living there. You know, you're walking a very thin line here.

But let's say you just made a wrong choice of words in the heat of debate, and get back to Palestinians. As long as there are such ideas among them, do not expect Israel to become any softer.

They have this credo: "Never again." You can condemn them, they don't care. You may believe that you are too strong and too dangerous for them, like Erdogan did some years ago, they don't care, they show you teeth. You can turn your back on them so they may feel being absolutely alone in this World, like Obama did - they don't care. You can paint them black, despise them, have protests around the World, put economic embargo into law... you name it - they don't care. They will not step back because they said: "Never again." And when you say that Jewish state shouldn't exist, you just remind them that they should never put their guard down.

Also, just like Hamas rockets can't force Israel to anything except to launch air raids against Gaza, in the same way international community can't do anything to force Israel to respect their wishes. That's reality of it.

Mimon

xhomelezz wrote: »

How about we re-home few thousands Palestinians to Ireland. Just to see if they'll be good neighbors. Since Israel is being barbecued, we might try that.. After politicians here expressed their strong view on the situation.

Plenty of Palestinians living here already and they are indeed go to live beside.

harmless

Odhinn wrote: »

There are incentives provided to those who move to the occupied territories, which is in violation of the Geneva conventions.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/economics-heart-israeli-settlements

And there is a tier system in the occupied territories.
Palestinians can move from Isreal to the West Bank and those settled in the West Bank can move to Gaza but not the other way around.

Once in Gaza they are trapped.

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

Well with the AP they had the phone number. That's not always the case for the other targets.

Israel has the technology, the imaging technology, satellite air and ground. Half of that tech is invented in Israel. I'm not convinced they don't know there are children at their targets, and they carry on anyway.

If that was the case we would never see any conflicts for fear of kids and other civilians might be killed ,
Sure we saw it all over Syria where russian and Assad regime forces purposely targeted civilian markets , schools , hospitals and other medical facilities ,
Not even accidentally but purposely targeted ,
You can never completely remove risks to civilians but we've seen multiple high rise buildings taken out with serious precision and minimal use of high explosives ,

thomas 123

xhomelezz wrote: »

Any Hamás grilling on the table or they'll walk free.

Any engagement on the answers to the questions you have asked?

Hamas has been grilled here.

It’s a little like comparing the flying columns to the British army.

Timberrrrrrrr

Selenophile wrote: »

That's exactly the position of Iran, Hamas and some (maybe majority of) Palestinians.
That's exactly the excuse for hardliners and far right factions among Israeli Jews.


More importantly, when you say that Israel does not have right to exist, it implies two or three possible (final ?) solutions for the Jews currently living there. You know, you're walking a very thin line here.

But let's say you just made a wrong choice of words in the heat of debate, and get back to Palestinians. As long as there are such ideas among them, do not expect Israel to become any softer.

They have this credo: "Never again." You can condemn them, they don't care. You may believe that you are too strong and too dangerous for them, like Erdogan did some years ago, they don't care, they show you teeth. You can turn your back on them so they may feel being absolutely alone in this World, like Obama did - they don't care. You can paint them black, despise them, have protests around the World, put economic embargo into law... you name it - they don't care. They will not step back because they said: "Never again." And when you say that Jewish state shouldn't exist, you just remind them that they should never put their guard down.

Also, just like Hamas rockets can't force Israel to anything except to launch air raids against Gaza, in the same way international community can't do anything to force Israel to respect their wishes. That's reality of it.

That's not what he said.

se25

Can someone please explain why the Gaza/Egypt border is not opened ? Is it always shut ? Are the Egyptians not willing to help their Arab brothers ?

Housefree

se25 wrote: »

Can someone please explain why the Gaza/Egypt border is not opened ? Is it always shut ? Are the Egyptians not willing to help their Arab brothers ?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/egypt-opens-rafah-crossing-early-palestinian-travellers-sources-2021-05-16/

Egypt has opened the Rafah border crossing a day earlier than planned to allow the passage from Gaza of students, people needing medical treatment and other humanitarian cases

Selenophile

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

That's not what he said.

That is exactly what he said, I quoted it: "A Jewish Ethno-State of Israel, born purposefully of genocide, does not have a right to exist, can everyone agree?

There is no other interpretation for these words.

Gatling

The UN are utterly useless since the 50's where they had the ability to carry out military actions to maintain real peace in conflict areas ,since the Soviets sponsored the invasion of South Korea ,while standing up in the UN calling for peace and calm they sent military forces to attack the UN force,the French and other countries did similar to maintain their own interests ,
America will veto actions just as Russia and China and their Allies also use their own vetos ,

To bring about a real two state solution we would need to see a large foreign military presence to deter Israel and rebuild and help maintain a new Palestine , nobody in the middle East will stand against Israel and nobody wants to become targets as for being considered foreign forces occupying Palestinian Territory ,
Iran wouldn't allow it either as they wouldn't be the dominant military in the territory ,
Russia certainly won't go up against Israel either they prefer cold localised conflicts on their own borders ,not a strong modern military force such as Israel or even Turkey,
And there is little or no opposition political parties in Israel they all have the exact same Israel and only Israel is allowed to exist , there is no alternative thinking or wanting peaceful solutions to this never ending conflict

xhomelezz

thomas 123 wrote: »

Any engagement on the answers to the questions you have asked?

Hamas has been grilled here.

It’s a little like comparing the flying columns to the British army.

Jews are the most hunted nation in history IMO.

Not here to say Israel does everything right, not here to say Palestinians do everything right.

But this crusade against Israel is a bit of joke, in my own opinion. It's just the way I see it. And I'm not defending killing kids on any sides.

se25

Thank you...

Why is the border not always open to facilitate trade, people etc.

Surely Gaza would not be the prison that it is if it had reasonably open access to Egypt and its huge economy. No axe to grind here but always wondered why no unfettered movement between the two jurisdictions which share a religion and ethnicity..

thomas 123

xhomelezz wrote: »

Jews are the most hunted nation in history IMO.

Not here to say Israel does everything right, not here to say Palestinians do everything right.

But this crusade against Israel is a bit of joke, in my own opinion. It's just the way I see it. And I'm not defending killing kids on any sides.

So can the state of Israel act how it wants since it’s people(most of whome have died out) were treated badly?

I would have hoped the state of Israel would be a little more empathetic towards a persecuted people.

Overheal

Selenophile wrote: »

That is exactly what he said, I quoted it: "A Jewish Ethno-State of Israel, born purposefully of genocide, does not have a right to exist, can everyone agree?

There is no other interpretation for these words.

That’s some very fanciful texas sharpshooting

Perhaps see my posts earlier in the day clearly stating that Israel in general has a right to exist. The right of an ethno-state to commit genocide is not so defended however.

Overheal wrote: »

Which, not to leave unsaid, there are also Israelis opposed to this violence, racism, ethnic cleansing. But nobody is citing the extremism by way of arguing Israel has no right to exist. It does. But hate from extremist Palestinians is wholesale used as a justification to force the Gazans into an open air prison, subject to Israel's whims for electricity, necessities and healthcare.

Both states have a right to exist. Not just Israel.

namloc1980

xhomelezz wrote: »

Jews are the most hunted nation in history IMO.

Not here to say Israel does everything right, not here to say Palestinians do everything right.

But this crusade against Israel is a bit of joke, in my own opinion. It's just the way I see it. And I'm not defending killing kids on any sides.

Calling out Israel for its treatment of the Palestinian people, the ethnic cleansing it has committed and the continued displacement of those people is now a "crusade" and a "joke". Interesting perspective.

jam_mac_jam

se25 wrote: »

Thank you...

Why is the border not always open to facilitate trade, people etc.

Surely Gaza would not be the prison that it is if it had reasonably open access to Egypt and its huge economy. No axe to grind here but always wondered why no unfettered movement between the two jurisdictions which share a religion and ethnicity..

Egypt is friends with Israel after it got it's ass handed to it a couple of times. They get a lot of money from the US to help and have a relationship with Israel. In keeping the border closed.

There is also security issues. They don't necessarily want an organisation like Hamas having free movement in and out of their country. There is a lot of terrorism in the Sinai near that area so they keep the border closed.

A lot of other Arabs don't necessarily all love each other just because they are the same religion and culture. In much the same as Christians. Arabs aren't all driven by the same motivations.

In many countries where the Palestinians live they are treated like **** and still live in refugee camps and are not given full citizenship.

DerekC16

xhomelezz wrote: »

I see so let's re-home Jewish. I'm up for both alternatives.

Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain would be rolling in his grave at the thoughts of it.

Signore Fancy Pants

Gatling wrote: »

There's still regular reports of Hezbollah losses to Israeli strikes in Syria on a near weekly basis ,along with Iranians it's become so common it rarely makes the headlines

I know you are not being literal when you say "weekly basis", there is no doubt that Hizbullah lose fighters in Syria on an annual basis. However it is not as regular post 2018, certainly not on a weekly basis and certainly not from Israeli airstrikes. Iranian and Iranian proxy Afghan/Pakistan/Iraqi militias, yes.

I will admit that Hizbullah shy away from announcing fatalities, mainly due to being "expected" to retaliate against Israel. They pick and chose when to claim fatalities, usually in relation to key personnel. Honestly, its not as regular nowadays as people think.

Gatling wrote: »

They know that they will never be able to militarily confront and defeat the state of Israel ,they don't have the numbers or the equipment to do so ,you might take out 5 tanks but they can bring several hundred tanks and other fighting vehicles

I completely agree, a conventional ground war by Hizbullah into Israel is not going to happen anytime soon. As stated by Nasrallah many times, Hizbullah's narrative is to use missiles against Israel, targeting key infrastructure and cities. Israeli air defence will be substantial but has the potential to be overwhelmed.

Again, Israel's narrative is exactly the same, targeting of Hizbullahs strategic interests in Lebanon and Beirut.

That is the future of substantial conflict between the two parties, its a case of who strikes first, wins. However, until then its low level tit for that and soap opera style conflict in efforts to dissipate tensions without leading to a full scale response....neither side want that.

Gatling wrote: »

They rarely even get through into Israel proper to pull off a spectacular ,just look at the efforts of the houthi forces in Yemen as an example. They need to start doing something other than flinging rockets against a wall

Hizbullah literally have zero interest in crossing the northern Israeli border, zero, zip, nada, none.

se25

So maybe the people in Gaza should not support Hamas..
Elect a moderate Govt that the Egyptians can deal with and move on to a more open relationship with Egypt that negates the border with Israel.

thomas 123

se25 wrote: »

So maybe the people in Gaza should not support Hamas..
Elect a moderate Govt that the Egyptians can deal with and move on to a more open relationship with Egypt that negates the border with Israel.

Are we back to victim blaming?

Overheal

se25 wrote: »

So maybe the people in Gaza should not support Hamas..

Is this reason enough to genocide them? Wouldn't it make Israel a terror-state if it uses terrorism as a means of coercing the bombing victims in Palestine into not supporting a political ideology? It seems to me that's patently an act of terrorism.

Timberrrrrrrr

Selenophile wrote: »

That is exactly what he said, I quoted it: "A Jewish Ethno-State of Israel, born purposefully of genocide, does not have a right to exist, can everyone agree?

There is no other interpretation for these words.

There is of course because you quoted what he said but highlighted the words that made your argument

The full quote was

A Jewish Ethno-State of Israel, born purposefully of genocide, does not have a right to exist,

The bolded part you left out is the important part.

Overheal

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

There is of course because you quoted what he said but highlighted the words that made your argument

The full quote was



The boldest part you left out is the important part.

It's like that Mr Deeds movie when the tabloid plays the footage of fire rescue backwards to accuse the titular character of throwing cats into a burning building. Shameless openface contortions.

Odhinn

se25 wrote: »

So maybe the people in Gaza should not support Hamas..
Elect a moderate Govt that the Egyptians can deal with and move on to a more open relationship with Egypt that negates the border with Israel.

They voted in "moderate govt" in the West Bank - see where that got them.