Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Feisar

Well the US is on Israel's side for some reason so nothing will be done.

Overheal

"One regime between the river and the sea, and that is apartheid."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknerYjob0w

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

In this situation, the law is neither here nor there. If you and a large gang of your chums start crowding around a car and banging on it (which I hope we can agree is quite a different thing to "standing in the road"), there is a very strong likelihood that the driver of that car will see you as a threat. If they see you as a threat of physical harm, then they're going to do what they can to get themselves out of that situation and taken their chances with the law later. And that will most likely mean revving/moving slowly and if necessary, forcing their vehicle through the throng.

And if those sorts of situations become common enough, it is likely that your average law-abiding, voting citizen will be sympathetic to the driver and will want to ensure that they are not at risk of criminal charge if they find themselves in a similar situation (regardless of what cause the protestors are going to bat for).

and the law will be changed back the minute a proper government gets into power, whenever that will be.
because changing the law to allow someone to plough people down with a car has all sorts of very serious consequences that if allowed, would be a serious threat to the state.

biko wrote: »

Uniformed police officer in Britain shouts "Free Palestine".
Met Police investigating as officers are not supposed to take sides in demonstrations.
What if she had shouted "Stop attacking Israel?"

https://twitter.com/0_politics2/status/1394541210803609600?s=20

it would still be investigated for the same reasons as the same policy applies.

Necro

eskimohunt's threadban lifted after discussion with poster

Shebean

Hamas exist directly due to Israeli criminality and aggression. You don't have to excuse or support Hamas to understand Israel is in the wrong. If not for Hamas fighting back Palestine and Palestinians would slowly go the way of the Rohingya, stateless and chased. The Israeli PR machine already tries to sell the idea they don't belong or even exist as a people.

namloc1980

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Just to compound the misery being inflicted by Israel on Gaza, their only Covid testing facility is out of action due to the relentless bombing. Cruel.

Shebean

Shebean wrote: »

Hamas exist directly due to Israeli criminality and aggression. You don't have to excuse or support Hamas to understand Israel is in the wrong. If not for Hamas fighting back Palestine and Palestinians would slowly go the way of the Rohingya, stateless and chased. The Israeli PR machine already tries to sell the idea they don't belong or even exist as a people.

This reminds me of the thinking of George Galloway and some other prominent speakers of that political persuasion who argue that Al Qaeda and ISIS "exist directly due to US foreign policy".

Of course, extremist interpretations of Islam have existed since the 1920s - the history is well documented. There is also some degree of victim-blaming involved, too. When the US suffered 9/11 and other atrocities, many argued that the US "brought it on itself" because of their governmental foreign policy.

But organizations such as Hamas do not make the distinction between governmental policy and civilian population. Hamas overtly declared in their original charter that they seek to commit genocide against the Jewish people. No matter what the interpretation of what justice for the Palestinians should look like, it in no way justifies or explains away the threat of genocide against an ethnic group.

And given the history of the Jews and the Holocaust, they are every bit as justified in being concerned about these renewed threats of even more genocide.

Timberrrrrrrr

namloc1980 wrote: »

.

Just to compound the misery being inflicted by Israel on Gaza, their only Covid testing facility is out of action due to the relentless bombing. Cruel.

And thats after Israel blocked covid vaccines from reaching the Palestinian people.

end of the road

eskimohunt wrote: »

This reminds me of the thinking of George Galloway and some other prominent speakers of that political persuasion who argue that Al Qaeda and ISIS "exist directly due to US foreign policy".

Of course, extremist interpretations of Islam have existed since the 1920s - the history is well documented. There is also some degree of victim-blaming involved, too. When the US suffered 9/11 and other atrocities, many argued that the US "brought it on itself" because of their governmental foreign policy.

But organizations such as Hamas do not make the distinction between governmental policy and civilian population. Hamas overtly declared in their original charter that they seek to commit genocide against the Jewish people. No matter what the interpretation of what justice for the Palestinians should look like, it in no way justifies or explains away the threat of genocide against an ethnic group.

And given the history of the Jews and the Holocaust, they are every bit as justified in being concerned about these renewed threats of even more genocide.

genocide of the jews was removed from their charter years ago, so the original charter and what was contained within it is irrelevant and redundant now, it is the current charter which is what matters.
being concerned about genocide is fine, committing it in the aim of that concern isn't.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This reminds me of the thinking of George Galloway and some other prominent speakers of that political persuasion who argue that Al Qaeda and ISIS "exist directly due to US foreign policy".

Of course, extremist interpretations of Islam have existed since the 1920s - the history is well documented. There is also some degree of victim-blaming involved, too. When the US suffered 9/11 and other atrocities, many argued that the US "brought it on itself" because of their governmental foreign policy.

But organizations such as Hamas do not make the distinction between governmental policy and civilian population. Hamas overtly declared in their original charter that they seek to commit genocide against the Jewish people. No matter what the interpretation of what justice for the Palestinians should look like, it in no way justifies or explains away the threat of genocide against an ethnic group.

And given the history of the Jews and the Holocaust, they are every bit as justified in being concerned about these renewed threats of even more genocide.

You would think that with thier history they would be more understanding of the Palestinian people, instead they are stopping thier own perxieved threat of Genocide by committing Genocide.

jam_mac_jam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This reminds me of the thinking of George Galloway and some other prominent speakers of that political persuasion who argue that Al Qaeda and ISIS "exist directly due to US foreign policy".

Of course, extremist interpretations of Islam have existed since the 1920s - the history is well documented. There is also some degree of victim-blaming involved, too. When the US suffered 9/11 and other atrocities, many argued that the US "brought it on itself" because of their governmental foreign policy.

But organizations such as Hamas do not make the distinction between governmental policy and civilian population. Hamas overtly declared in their original charter that they seek to commit genocide against the Jewish people. No matter what the interpretation of what justice for the Palestinians should look like, it in no way justifies or explains away the threat of genocide against an ethnic group.

And given the history of the Jews and the Holocaust, they are every bit as justified in being concerned about these renewed threats of even more genocide.

Of course they should be worried about genocide when in recent memory they suffered so much.

Of course it is barbaric that Hamas ever glorified the killing of Jews.

This does not justify the treatment of the population of Gaza and the west bank. They are also humans and have rights.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

genocide of the jews was removed from their charter years ago, so the original charter and what was contained within it is irrelevant and redundant now, it is the current charter which is what matters.
being concerned about genocide is fine, committing it in the aim of that concern isn't.

Marine Le Pen changed the charter of the Front Nationale in France, which was overtly racist, so would you argue that that's a positive reason to vote for Marine Le Pen now?

Or can you see the deeper point I'm making - namely, that leopards seldom change their spots. They do politically - but that's for political reasons alone.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

Hamas overtly declared in their original charter that they seek to commit genocide against the Jewish people.

As you say, it's an obsolete charter.

Israel shortly after that charter was made obsolete passed the Nation State law, declaring Israel is a Jewish Ethno State. It has been forcibly removing Palestinians from the West Bank. If you want to discuss the past, there has been evidence of Israel sterilizing Ethiopian Jews. Hamas may have once threatened genocide but Israel is demonstrated to be actively doing it themselves. Surely that warrants more immediate attention than the outdated charter?

Timberrrrrrrr

Overheal wrote: »

As you say, it's an obsolete charter.

Israel shortly after that charter was made obsolete passed the Nation State law, declaring Israel is a Jewish Ethno State. It has been forcibly removing Palestinians from the West Bank. It has been sterilizing Ethiopian Jews. Hamas may have once threatened genocide but Israel is demonstrated to be actively doing it themselves. Surely that warrants more immediate attention than the outdated charter?

Apparently Hamas saying nasty things about the state of Israel and its people is nowhere near as bad as Israels eugenics of the Ethiopian Jews that arrived there.

thomas 123

Israeli Eurovision song “set me free”... ironic.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Apparently Hamas saying nasty things about the state of Israel and its people is nowhere near as bad as Israels eugenics of the Ethiopian Jews that arrived there.

From 2008 to 2015, the number of Ethiopian Jews in Israel increased from 106,000 to 133,200.

Given that Israel has a modest population of 9 million, the idea that Ethiopian Jews (1.5%) already in Israel are somehow in terminal decline is patently absurd.

In fact, the share of Jews with heritage from Iran, India, Pakistan, and other smaller African nations, increased over the same period too. Jews with heritage from Libya, Egypt, and Morocco remain static.

14% of Israel's population is Arab - who enjoy more rights, including democratic rights, than their heritage country.

Yes - I'm aware of the reported stories about birth control and Ethiopian Jewry. If that's true, it should obviously stop. I cannot verify the story or what has happened in actual practice.

No country is perfect. Every government deserves criticism of some kind, and that includes Israel. Many Zionists criticize Israel, too. There's nothing controversial about admitting that fact.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

From 2008 to 2015, the number of Ethiopian Jews in Israel increased from 106,000 to 133,200.

Source?

Israel has a modest population of 9 million, the idea that Ethiopian Jews (1.5%)

Source?

14% of Israel's population is Arab - who enjoy more rights, including democratic rights, than their heritage country.

Source for figure? Do the conditions anywhere else justify the conditions Israel deliberately implements? Why? In the United States all immigrants receive equal protection under the law regardless of where they originated from. In Israel there are not equal rights.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Source?

Sure, you can find the statistics here.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

From 2008 to 2015, the number of Ethiopian Jews in Israel increased from 106,000 to 133,200.

Given that Israel has a modest population of 9 million, the idea that Ethiopian Jews (1.5%) already in Israel are somehow in terminal decline is patently absurd.

In fact, the share of Jews with heritage from Iran, India, Pakistan, and other smaller African nations, increased over the same period too. Jews with heritage from Libya, Egypt, and Morocco remain static.

14% of Israel's population is Arab - who enjoy more rights, including democratic rights, than their heritage country.

Yes - I'm aware of the reported stories about birth control and Ethiopian Jewry. If that's true, it should obviously stop. I cannot verify the story or what has happened in actual practice.

No country is perfect. Every government deserves criticism of some kind, and that includes Israel. Many Zionists criticize Israel, too. There's nothing controversial about admitting that fact.

No one has claimed they are in "terminal decline"

As for the whole "if it's true" line? :rolleyes:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/.premium-ethiopians-fooled-into-birth-control-1.5226424

A government official has for the first time acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera.

Another breach of human rights by Israel but hey....nothing to see here right?

The women’s testimony could help explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel’s Ethiopian community. 

thomas 123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

From 2008 to 2015, the number of Ethiopian Jews in Israel increased from 106,000 to 133,200.

Given that Israel has a modest population of 9 million, the idea that Ethiopian Jews (1.5%) already in Israel are somehow in terminal decline is patently absurd.

In fact, the share of Jews with heritage from Iran, India, Pakistan, and other smaller African nations, increased over the same period too. Jews with heritage from Libya, Egypt, and Morocco remain static.

14% of Israel's population is Arab - who enjoy more rights, including democratic rights, than their heritage country.

Yes - I'm aware of the reported stories about birth control and Ethiopian Jewry. If that's true, it should obviously stop. I cannot verify the story or what has happened in actual practice.

No country is perfect. Every government deserves criticism of some kind, and that includes Israel. Many Zionists criticize Israel, too. There's nothing controversial about admitting that fact.

No country is perfect for sure.

Israel however is a disgusting excuse of a state under its current leadership.

Danzy

end of the road wrote: »

genocide of the jews was removed from their charter years ago, so the original charter and what was contained within it is irrelevant and redundant now, it is the current charter which is what matters.
being concerned about genocide is fine, committing it in the aim of that concern isn't.

You are on to a dead end arguing that Hamas are anything but as nasty as the SS.


Updated charter or not.

That's not to say I couldn't see Israel giving the Arabs there a leave or die choice in time.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

Sure, you can find the statistics here.

Can you clearly demonstrate where on that document you are pulling your conclusions from? I am not seeing data here for 2008, or any net change between 2015 and 2008. I don't at all see where you get 106,000 to 133,200.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Another breach of human rights by Israel but hey....nothing to see here right?

Quite simply, we must discover what really happened. Clearly, the practice is wrong - and no level-headed person would agree with it.

But the Jewish population is not racist. In fact, the idea of white Jewry is a modern phenomenon. Most Jews have had heritage in North Africa and the Middle East for most of their existence.

But that said, this matter must be resolved - and it must be ensured that no such practice continues in the future.

But that does not excuse indiscriminate Hamas rockets, threats, and so on.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Quite simply, we must discover what really happened. Clearly, the practice is wrong - and no level-headed person would agree with it.

But the Jewish population is not racist. In fact, the idea of white Jewry is a modern phenomenon. Most Jews have had heritage in North Africa and the Middle East for most of their existence.

But that said, this matter must be resolved - and it must be ensured that no such practice continues in the future.

But that does not excuse indiscriminate Hamas rockets, threats, and so on.

What do you mean by the bolded when you say "really happened"?

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What do you mean by the bolded when you say "really happened"?

We must find out who is responsible for this, and charge them accordingly with the crimes they have committed.

thomas 123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Quite simply, we must discover what really happened. Clearly, the practice is wrong - and no level-headed person would agree with it.

But the Jewish population is not racist. In fact, the idea of white Jewry is a modern phenomenon. Most Jews have had heritage in North Africa and the Middle East for most of their existence.

But that said, this matter must be resolved - and it must be ensured that no such practice continues in the future.

But that does not excuse indiscriminate Hamas rockets, threats, and so on.

Racism: “ prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.”

Israel is a racist state that subjects people within its official borders and occupied borders to a regime based solely on the religion and ethnicity of a group of people.

blackcard

namloc1980 wrote: »

.

Just to compound the misery being inflicted by Israel on Gaza, their only Covid testing facility is out of action due to the relentless bombing. Cruel.

Because, according to Israel, some Hamas terrorists were stationed at the Covid testing facility??

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We must find out who is responsible for this, and charge them accordingly with the crimes they have committed.

Yeah, that's gonna happen :rolleyes:

thomas 123

thomas 123 wrote: »

Israel is a racist state that subjects people within its official borders and occupied borders to a regime based solely on the religion and ethnicity of a group of people.

I disagree.

Israel exists as a Jewish state. That in itself doesn't make it racist. Saudi Arabia is a Sunni state, and that isn't a racist country either. Countries are very often defined by their faith/culture.

For instance, if Ireland permitted open borders to the world population, free from all checks, and hundreds of thousands of migrants landed to Ireland - that would affect the demographics, culture, and ultimately - the history and composition of the nation. It wouldn't make Ireland "racist" to try and ensure the composition of the country remained somewhat intact.

A nation is more than its political borders. Would you support 3 million migrants moving to Ireland? Quite clearly not. You can appreciate the long-term consequences for the people who already live here. That wouldn't make you a racist, and neither is Israel racist for pursuing the same kind of policy.

Similarly, Israel wants to ensure that it's culture and tradition and existence is fundamentally Jewish. Clearly, they cannot agree to the idea of millions of Palestinians moving into Israel. It would, like the Irish example above, mean that the concept of the country disappeared entirely. Again, there is nothing racist about this at all.

One in seven Israelis is Arab, let's not forget.

Overheal

In remarks Tuesday at a Ford auto plant in Dearborn, Michigan, President Joe Biden expressed support for Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-MI), who has criticized the administration’s response to the intensifying violence in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank, where some members of Tlaib’s extended family live.

“Rashida Tlaib, I tell you what Rashida, I want to say to you, I admire your intellect, your compassion and your concern for so many other people,” Biden said at the start of his remarks, erroneously pronouncing her name. “And it’s from my heart, I pray that your grandmom and family are well. I promise you, I’m going to do everything to see that they are, on the West Bank.”

“You’re a fighter, and God thank you for being a fighter,” Biden added, as the crowd applauded.

Tlaib has been fiercely critical of the Biden administration’s policy on the latest round of deadly violence in the region, which has included Israeli military strikes on homes and office buildings in Gaza, Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli towns, and violent clashes between Israeli police and Palestinian demonstrations in the West Bank.

“To read the statements from President Biden, Secretary [Antony] Blinken, General [Lloyd] Austin, and leaders of both parties, you would hardly know Palestinians existed at all,” Tlaib said in an impassioned speech on the House floor last Thursday.

“If our own State Department can’t even bring itself to acknowledge the killing of Palestinian children is wrong, well, I will say it for the millions of Americans who stand with me against the killing of innocent children, no matter their ethnicity, or faith,” Tlaib added.

Biden has expressed support for a cease-fire during a phone call with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, after previously reaffirming his “strong support for Israel’s right to defend itself against rocket attacks from Hamas,” according to reports. In a call with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, Biden expressed the need for Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel, and emphasized his support for a two-state solution.

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/biden-expresses-support-for-rashida-tlaib-and-her-family-in-west-bank-thank-you-for-being-a-fighter/

First diplomatic gesture we've seen yet that starts distancing itself from Israeli aggression. Doesn't say much about Gaza though.