Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ultimately, my central - indeed, core question, has gone unanswered.

If Israel were, for the sake of argument, an exclusively Shia nation that was disputing territorial rights with a dispossessed Sunni population, would the same people be reacting in the same way, and with the same hostility and obsession, against the hypothetical Shia nation?

I posit no.

That's because Muslim military disputes already take place around the world. But the same people interested in the Israeli question have next to no interest in these other conflicts or situations in which Muslim minorities are somehow dispossessed.

And yes, you've thought of the reason why - the fact Israel is a "Jewish" nation.

That's the only difference. And it's a significant difference, too.

But I am as yet unconvinced of those who argue that Judaism has nothing to do with it. The evidence is strong, too strong, to abandon the very real association between the obsession with this conflict versus what would have happened if you replaced "Jewish" with "Hindu" or "Shia" or any other ethnic or religious group.

This is the first time I have seen you post this scenario.

I'm not anti Jewish, I'm anti Zionist...there's a HUGE difference!

theballz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Settlements are illegal.

However, as the Camp David summit showed, that Israel is willing to withdraw settlements. So, even though this is a hostile gesture, the existence of settlements is not necessarily permanent. We have seen that with Gaza, and I have no doubt we will see this with the West Bank, in time.

If we take three steps back, both sides engage in hostile actions.

But a peaceful solution is possible.

Such a solution must be conditional that terrorist organizations, such as Hamas, do not fire indiscriminate rockets into Israeli territory.

This is the same solution we would demand if Gaza were controlled by Al Qaeda or ISIS.

Fully agree with all of this.

However, the reality here is that it’s gone past a ceasefire by the looks of it. Even if Hamas did stop the rockets, Israel are not going to stop at this point

end of the road

eskimohunt wrote: »

Five countries attacked Israel in June 1967, including Jordan - who, at that time, controlled the West Bank.

Jordan lost the war and, with it, the West Bank.

Israel, under international law, is permitted to occupy that zone until a 'meaningful peace' has been achieved.

When Israel relinquished control of the Gaza Strip in 2005, it became a launch pad for missiles and a nest for Hamas.

Israel understands the risks attacked to relinquishing yet more control to the West Bank. What happened in the Gaza Strip has now offered a precedent, and understandably, Israel is sceptical.

5 countries, upon receiving reliable information that israel was about to attack them, engaged in defensive action to protect their borders and prevent a full scale invasion.
israel managed to steal some land from those countries, and in the intervening years has been forced to give some of it back to it's rightful controllers.
israel, under international law, is not permitted to occupy any land outside it's borders, given that it is it who is refusing to engage in any meaningful peace, and that the reason for the occupations is about expanding it's borders rather then security as part of an ongoing war, for which there isn't any, but instead acts of ethnic cleansing.
there are no risks of removing itself from land it has no entitlement to just like there are no risks from it going back within it's actual borders.

eskimohunt wrote: »

Settlements are illegal under international law, yes - that's absolutely true.

I'm not the biggest fan of settlements. But if the PLO can come to terms with Israel over a meaningful peace, as was offered during the Camp David Summit, then I am confident that Israel will withdraw settlements as and when is required.

This is what happened with Gaza, incidentally.

Israel pulled all settlements - but Gaza still metamorphosed into a zone that became a launchpad for unguided rockets into Israel.

Israel doesn't want to make the same mistake again.

the evidence would suggest otherwise.
hamas have no obligation to do anything for israel to remove settlements since the settlements are illegal.
israel were forced to withdraw from gaza, they weren't given much choice in the matter.
israel wants to expand it's borders, that is the reason it occupies land.
nothing to do with rockets or wanting to not make supposed mistakes.

o1s1n

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ultimately, my central - indeed, core question, has gone unanswered.

If Israel were, for the sake of argument, an exclusively Shia nation that was disputing territorial rights with a dispossessed Sunni population, would the same people be reacting in the same way, and with the same hostility and obsession, against the hypothetical Shia nation?

I posit no.

That's because Muslim military disputes already take place around the world. But the same people interested in the Israeli question have next to no interest in these other conflicts or situations in which Muslim minorities are somehow dispossessed.

And yes, you've thought of the reason why - the fact Israel is a "Jewish" nation.

That's the only difference. And it's a significant difference, too.

But I am as yet unconvinced of those who argue that Judaism has nothing to do with it. The evidence is strong, too strong, to abandon the very real association between the obsession with this conflict versus what would have happened if you replaced "Jewish" with "Hindu" or "Shia" or any other ethnic or religious group.

If they were a first world Shia country who had colonised a country in the west and were suppressing Sunni people who had been living there then yes, people would be outraged.

The above scenario is so utterly far fetched and out of whack with reality if it would never happen.

Short answer - you're comparing apples and oranges.

Danzy

Maybe a stretch of Sinai should be set aside as Palestine.

Adjoining Gaza or maybe further afield.

Gaza is too small to be a State and the West Bank will not be part of a Palestinian State, it's location and the facts on the ground rules that out already.

The basic problem is that Israel knows it is in a neighborhood where the day they lose is the day they all die, given it's not long since half the Jews in the world were killed that's a driver in everything they do.

Who honestly believes that Israeli Jews would survive the right of return? Or freedom of movement between it and Gaza or the West Bank.

That's why it is so intractable and the solutions offered, the current approach of both sides is doomed to failure.

lulublue22

lulublue22 wrote: »

What does it matter what a free Palestine looks like to any of us- surely what matters is a political process that forages a long term sustainable solution to the issue. That will take considerable movement from both Israel and Palestine. For a start though Israel could stop forced evictions / resettlement.

If you can define an end state then the steps to get there could be teased out, debated etc. Beats the circular arguments. One poster has already contacted their representatives which is great. I'm mostly just following the thread to learn more and see if there are any specific suggestions that could be made to forward to a representative etc.

Agree that things should be done right now to halt the violence but we will be here again in x years having the same debates if nothing fundamental changes

thomas 123

Danzy wrote: »

Maybe a stretch of Sinai should be set aside as Palestine.

Adjoining Gaza or maybe further afield.

Gaza is too small to be a State and the West Bank will not be part of a Palestinian State, it's location and the facts on the ground rules that out already.

The basic problem is that Israel knows it is in a neighborhood where the day they lose is the day they all die, given it's not long since half the Jews in the world were killed that's a driver in everything they do.

Who honestly believes that Israeli Jews would survive the right of return? Or freedom of movement between it and Gaza or the West Bank.

That's why it is so intractable and the solutions offered, the approach of both sides is doomed to failure.

It’s a desert ... why should Israel get all the good land.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

If you can define an end state then the steps to get there could be teased out, debated etc. Beats the circular arguments. One poster has already contacted their representatives which is great. I'm mostly just following the thread to learn more and see if there are any specific suggestions that could be made to forward to a representative etc.

Agree that things should be done right now to halt the violence but we will be here again in x years having the same debates if nothing fundamental changes

The best thing anyone can do at the moment is to support the BDS movement.
https://bdsmovement.net/

theballz

thomas 123 wrote: »

It’s a desert ... why should Israel get all the good land.

I think you need to do more research into this. The Brits colonized that little strip of land for a while and let in a bunch of European Jews. Then the Brits left but were forced to help the Jews financially and militarily because of UN mandates But the Brits and the US didn't fulfill the mandates because they were only backing the Jewish Israelis.

Again, why do you think there's a war going on over there right now? The Israelis are rapidly expanding because of money coming in from the US. The natives do not like this one bit.

But what the hell is the Israelis are suppose to do? They arn't going to go anywhere. I think the Palestinians need to come to this realization and work something out.

end of the road

eskimohunt wrote: »

Ultimately, my central - indeed, core question, has gone unanswered.

If Israel were, for the sake of argument, an exclusively Shia nation that was disputing territorial rights with a dispossessed Sunni population, would the same people be reacting in the same way, and with the same hostility and obsession, against the hypothetical Shia nation?

I posit no.

That's because Muslim military disputes already take place around the world. But the same people interested in the Israeli question have next to no interest in these other conflicts or situations in which Muslim minorities are somehow dispossessed.

And yes, you've thought of the reason why - the fact Israel is a "Jewish" nation.

That's the only difference. And it's a significant difference, too.

But I am as yet unconvinced of those who argue that Judaism has nothing to do with it. The evidence is strong, too strong, to abandon the very real association between the obsession with this conflict versus what would have happened if you replaced "Jewish" with "Hindu" or "Shia" or any other ethnic or religious group.

israel claims to be a western style democratic country and has a serious amount of influence around the world, all the while engaging in behaviours multiples of their muslim neighbours, who are generally a bit open about what type of countries they are.
that is why it gets more interest then islamic states.
your attempted claim of antisemitism being the reason for israel being held to the standard it claims to uphold, and for being criticized for it's behaviour, once again fails, as it will always do.

Timberrrrrrrr

theballz wrote: »

I think you need to do more research into this. The Brits colonized that little strip of land for a while and let in a bunch of European Jews. Then the Brits left but were forced to help the Jews financially and militarily because of UN mandates But the Brits and the US didn't fulfill the mandates because they were only backing the Jewish Israelis.

Again, why do you think there's a war going on over there right now? The Israelis are rapidly expanding because of money coming in from the US. The natives do not like this one bit.

But what the hell is the Israelis are suppose to do? They arn't going to go anywhere. I think the Palestinians need to come to this realization and work something out.

They are though, they are expanding settlement and pushing the Palestinians out. Israel needs to stop the illegal settlements and pull back to its.own borders, that would be a good start.

Danzy

thomas 123 wrote: »

It’s a desert ... why should Israel get all the good land.

If the Palestinians are able to wipe them off it then they will have the land, to call it good is a stretch.

Can they do that, no. So should doesn't come into it.

thomas 123

theballz wrote: »

I think you need to do more research into this. The Brits colonized that little strip of land for a while and let in a bunch of European Jews. Then the Brits left but were forced to help the Jews financially and militarily because of UN mandates But the Brits and the US didn't fulfill the mandates because they were only backing the Jewish Israelis.

Again, why do you think there's a war going on over there right now? The Israelis are rapidly expanding because of money coming in from the US. The natives do not like this one bit.

But what the hell is the Israelis are suppose to do? They arn't going to go anywhere. I think the Palestinians need to come to this realization and work something out.

You suggested palastinians be granted land that’s literally inhabitable and I’m the one who needs to go more research?

An actual fair agreement needs to be found with a fair division of resources. I am very aware of the history of the region.

Edit: you didn’t *** I think we are in agreement lol.

thomas 123

Danzy wrote: »

If the Palestinians are able to wipe them off it then they will have the land, to call it good is a stretch.

Can they do that, no. So should doesn't come into it.

Compared to northern Sinai? Literally where Moses was sent for 40 years to wander the desert. What a deal

Odhinn

Danzy wrote: »

Maybe a stretch of Sinai should be set aside as Palestine.

Adjoining Gaza or maybe further afield.

Gaza is too small to be a State and the West Bank will not be part of a Palestinian State, it's location and the facts on the ground rules that out already.

The basic problem is that Israel knows it is in a neighborhood where the day they lose is the day they all die, given it's not long since half the Jews in the world were killed that's a driver in everything they do.

Who honestly believes that Israeli Jews would survive the right of return? Or freedom of movement between it and Gaza or the West Bank.

That's why it is so intractable and the solutions offered, the current approach of both sides is doomed to failure.

The PLO have privately given up the right to return
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jan/31/palestine-israel-status-not-negotiable

a "symbolic number of refugees' return, demilitarised state ... What more can I give?"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-power-weakness-negotiations

jimmycrackcorm

irishproduce wrote: »

Why isn't Ireland and other EU states offering fast track refugee status to the Palestinians. Children being killed there and we know it's happening.
To my mind, the trump the chancers we get coming here for refugee status all day and so we should be affording the Palestinians safe refuge

Why didn't we ask Northern Irish nationalists to simply move south during the troubles...

end of the road

Danzy wrote: »

Maybe a stretch of Sinai should be set aside as Palestine.

Adjoining Gaza or maybe further afield.

Gaza is too small to be a State and the West Bank will not be part of a Palestinian State, it's location and the facts on the ground rules that out already.

The basic problem is that Israel knows it is in a neighborhood where the day they lose is the day they all die, given it's not long since half the Jews in the world were killed that's a driver in everything they do.

Who honestly believes that Israeli Jews would survive the right of return? Or freedom of movement between it and Gaza or the West Bank.

That's why it is so intractable and the solutions offered, the current approach of both sides is doomed to failure.

this is hocus pocus nonsense, given that israel is not under any real meaningful threat given it's military abilities.
it was never under any meaningffl threat either before it expanded it's military, but it was and is still a threat to it's neighbours.
certainly, the persecution of jews in the past is used as an excuse for their behaviour by some, but thankfully and rightfully, plenty of people including jews, see this for what it is .
israely jews would survive the right of return, given israely jews have lived on that land in peace with muslims for generations.

theballz wrote: »

I think you need to do more research into this. The Brits colonized that little strip of land for a while and let in a bunch of European Jews. Then the Brits left but were forced to help the Jews financially and militarily because of UN mandates But the Brits and the US didn't fulfill the mandates because they were only backing the Jewish Israelis.

Again, why do you think there's a war going on over there right now? The Israelis are rapidly expanding because of money coming in from the US. The natives do not like this one bit.

But what the hell is the Israelis are suppose to do? They arn't going to go anywhere. I think the Palestinians need to come to this realization and work something out.

it's not up to others to work something out, it's up to israel to go back within it's assigned borders.
israel isn't going anywhere, hence it needs to actually behave itself and try and get on with it's neighbours and start supporting itself.

jimmycrackcorm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

They are though, they are expanding settlement and pushing the Palestinians out. Israel needs to stop the illegal settlements and pull back to its.own borders, that would be a good start.

I watched a video commentary, that made the point that the Israelis pulled all settlements out of Gaza and Hamas are firing rockets from Gaza, not the west bank.

Danzy

thomas 123 wrote: »

Compared to northern Sinai? Literally where Moses was sent for 40 years to wander the desert. What a deal

Anyone who stayed for 40 years did so because of it's beauty.

I love your response though, it's a very good one.

Egypt are building 1 million acres of farmland in Northern Sinai, that was the plan as 9d a decade ago, whether they are still..

A desalination plant or 2 would transform it.

Right up against the border of Sinai or West Palestine, is some of Israel's most productive farm land.

With support it would be an oasis.

It's a mad idea but not as mad as the 2 State solution is now.

That's dead,

Danzy

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I watched a video commentary, that made the point that the Israelis pulled all settlements out of Gaza and Hamas are firing rockets from Gaza, not the west bank.

The West Bank is Palestinian controlled but all the roads, all the high ground, anything strategic is Israeli controlled and occupied.

Odhinn

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I watched a video commentary, that made the point that the Israelis pulled all settlements out of Gaza and Hamas are firing rockets from Gaza, not the west bank.

...because they wanted to concentrate their efforts in and around Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank, while maintaining a cloak of false generosity.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/07/israel

Danzy

Odhinn wrote: »

...because they wanted to concentrate their efforts in and around Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank, while maintaining a cloak of false generosity.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/07/israel

A strategic retreat.

cameramonkey

https://twitter.com/samahhadid/status/1394654306893193218

families seem to have been Israeli targets. All these children were murdered in their own homes.

Lina Iyad Sharir, 15

Hala Hussein al-Rifi, 13

Dima Rami al-Ifranji, 15

Tala Ayman Abu al-Auf, 13

Yara Mohammad al-Kawlak, 9

Rula Mohammad al-Kawlak, 5

Hala Mohammad al-Kawlak, 12

Hana Shukri al-Kawlak, 14

UDAWINNER

To those defending Israel, this is the mindset of some of their people:(
https://twitter.com/search?q=%22Tel%20Aviv%22&src=trend_click&vertical=trends
The nazis would have said the same which is ironic.

Overheal

Secretary Blinken announced the US has allegedly received "secret" intelligence that justifies their leveling of the Associated Press building.

https://nypost.com/2021/05/18/blinken-israel-gave-us-secret-justification-for-flattening-ap-building-in-gaza/

I'm not sure why they would not disclose this information.

UDAWINNER

https://twitter.com/thebeardists/status/1394822093209022464


Imagine if Israel had no friends like the US, what would have happened and then palestinians could live in peace

Overheal

UDAWINNER wrote: »

https://twitter.com/thebeardists/status/1394822093209022464


Imagine if Israel had no friends like the US, what would have happened and then palestinians could live in peace

US and Israel are attached at the hip. It may as well be the US ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. No surprise that our right wing nationalists sympathize with the Israeli plot. Some of them may even retire there.

ILoveYourVibes

I am disgusted by recent Israeli actions.

Bombing of the Press offices of AP and Al Jezeera is unthinkable. Their reaction has been disproportionate.

I hope a lasting ceasefire can be arranged.

Both hamas and the israeli govt are using this for political gain.


People keep trying to talk about this and carry out activism about this without involving the very parties it involves. You can't have a peace process without israelis and palestinians talking to each other.

There is a type of extremism on both sides that wants to prevent that kind of dialogue. And a lot of social activism on both side (usually people who are not israeli or palestinian at all) ..who also want to somehow have some kind of peace process while excluding the sides involved. Which obviously makes no sense.

Its like people keep talking about Israel and Palestine but they don't want to involve either of those in the conversation or facilitate that conversation.

Similarly ...a lot of these online conversations feel like scripts ...‘Hamas is doing something that is not ok’ and ‘Israel has the right to defend itself’. These people are evil and kill civilians ..or these people throw stones'.

Congress in the US only listens to Jewish Americans ...rarely to Israelis on the ground only the politicians or those who support the jewish american voice . Its very easy to be extreme if you are not living there.

The whole lebannon israeli attacks ...brings things to a whole new level.

ILoveYourVibes

Overheal wrote: »

Secretary Blinken announced the US has allegedly received "secret" intelligence that justifies their leveling of the Associated Press building.

https://nypost.com/2021/05/18/blinken-israel-gave-us-secret-justification-for-flattening-ap-building-in-gaza/

I'm not sure why they would not disclose this information.

This is ridic ....

Do they have secret info explaining Lebanon now too?

The US supported Israel because it was an ally in the middle east for them. Now its a liability.

I think the Israelis need to ask themselves that even if they can win the war, can they win the peace?