Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

Hamas should not be targeting Israel full stop. Had Hamas not threatened Israel and subsequently bombarded Israel with rockets, Israel would not have responded in the way that it has.

Furthermore, I'd like to see more condemnation for Hamas who place military equipment in civilian zones.

Again, if Hamas were to act more humanely toward the Gazan people, they would not be putting Palestinian lives at risk from Israeli fire. Placing military equipment among apartment blocks is absolutely disgusting.

Israel does issue warnings, but Hamas knows exactly what they are doing and is willing to see Palestinians die for propaganda reasons rather than do the right thing.

But then again, they are a terrorist organization, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Still yet to see any actual evidence of this regarding any of the fighting in the last week and a half. Hope you're not still bamboozled by that Israeli decoy launcher the IDF tweeted about

Heraclius

Overheal wrote: »

Lessons learned from the British Plantations?

Not everything is about Britain's actions in Ireland.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Absolute lies

The IDF headquarters are in a civilian zone so they should also be condemned for the same right?

I don't equate Jihadist terrorist organizations such as Hamas, ISIS, or Al Qaeda with any defense force from any sovereign state.

Overheal

Heraclius wrote: »

Not everything is about Britain's actions in Ireland.

Nobody argued 'everything' is. Nice strrawman.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

I don't equate Jihadist terrorist organizations such as Hamas, ISIS, or Al Qaeda with any defense force from any sovereign state.

Of course not. That's the convenience of not recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state. You can dismiss one tribe's right to self defense because you don't see them as legitimate.

All the same Israel is taking military action and opens itself, rightly, to having it's military targets bombarded. If their headquarters is in Tel Aviv, then rightly, under the auspices of conventional war, it should be target by the enemy force. It just so happens the opposing force has very unsophisticated weaponry and cannot aim precisely at iron dome launchers or military buildings nestled in residential areas in Tel Aviv. But you should be under no disagreement that the headquarters, those launchers, etc. are valid targets.

Heraclius

Overheal wrote: »

Nobody argued 'everything' is. Nice strrawman.

You could just keep conflicts separate. Conflating situations sometimes just muddies the waters and doesn't help at all. Bringing the history of Ireland into a situation many miles away just makes people emotional which doesn't help with reasoned debate.

Overheal

Heraclius wrote: »

You could just keep conflicts separate. Conflating situations sometimes just muddies the waters and doesn't help at all. Bringing the history of Ireland into a situation many miles away just makes people emotional which doesn't help with reasoned debate.

It's important historical context, especially when the brits themselves led us to a mandated Palestine.

The point being Israels interest in wiping out the Palestinians is not served by doing it in a week. There are slower methods, and yes, it could take a century, or more, as was demonstrated historically such as in the case of British plantations in Ireland. The plantations that failed were the ones were the colonists were too impatient and pushed too hard. Israel is happy to keep illegally settling in the West Bank, one house at a time.

East Ulster
Further information: Enterprise of Ulster
In the mid-1560s, during the conflict between the English and Shane O'Neill, there were proposals to colonize parts of east Ulster, but Crown support was not forthcoming.[15] The Crown eventually agreed to support a plantation in eastern Ulster in the 1570s, which ultimately failed. The east of the province (occupied by the MacDonnells and Clandeboye O'Neills) was intended to be colonised with English planters, to establish a barrier between the Gaels of Ireland and Scotland, and to stop the flow of Scottish mercenaries into Ireland. The conquest of east Ulster was contracted out to the Earl of Essex and Sir Thomas Smith. The O'Neill chieftain, Turlough Luineach O'Neill, fearing an English bridgehead in Ulster, helped his O'Neill kinsmen of in Clandeboye. The MacDonnells in Antrim, led by Sorley Boy MacDonnell, also called in reinforcements from their kinsmen in the Western Isles and Highlands of Scotland.[16]

The plantation eventually degenerated, as atrocities were committed against the local civilian population before it was abandoned. Brian MacPhelim O'Neill of Clandeboye, his wife and 200 clansmen were murdered at a feast organised by the Earl of Essex in 1574. In 1575, Francis Drake (later victor over the Spanish Armada, then in the pay of the Earl of Essex) participated in a naval expedition that culminated in the massacre of 500 MacDonnell clans-people in a surprise raid on Rathlin Island. But, according to Harry Kelsey, Drake's role in the massacre is unclear.[17]

The following year, Elizabeth I, disturbed by the killing of civilians, called a halt to trying to establish this plantation.[18]

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't equate Jihadist terrorist organizations such as Hamas, ISIS, or Al Qaeda with any defense force from any sovereign state.

IDF are the biggest terrorists in that whole region, extrajudicial killings, deliberate targeting of men, women and children, eugenics, murder... yet here you are supporting them.

Overheal

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

IDF are the biggest terrorists in that whole region, extrajudicial killings, deliberate targeting of men, women and children, eugenics, murder... yet here you are supporting them.

Also the IDF: "Vote the way we want or you we bomb you." It's terrorism anytime someone defending Israel suggests Gaza can 'just end this' by not voting for Hamas.

Heraclius

Overheal wrote: »

It's important historical context, especially when the brits themselves led us to a mandated Palestine.

The point being Israels interest in wiping out the Palestinians is not served by doing it in a week. There are slower methods, and yes, it could take a century, or more, as was demonstrated historically such as in the case of British plantations in Ireland. The plantations that failed were the ones were the colonists were too impatient and pushed too hard. Israel is happy to keep illegally settling in the West Bank, one house at a time.

I thought the plantation of Ulster lead to a vast expulsion of native landowners in a pretty short amount of time?

Overheal

Heraclius wrote: »

I thought the plantation of Ulster lead to a vast expulsion of native landowners in a pretty short amount of time?

The plantation eventually degenerated, as atrocities were committed against the local civilian population before it was abandoned. Brian MacPhelim O'Neill of Clandeboye, his wife and 200 clansmen were murdered at a feast organised by the Earl of Essex in 1574. In 1575, Francis Drake (later victor over the Spanish Armada, then in the pay of the Earl of Essex) participated in a naval expedition that culminated in the massacre of 500 MacDonnell clans-people in a surprise raid on Rathlin Island. But, according to Harry Kelsey, Drake's role in the massacre is unclear.[17]

The following year, Elizabeth I, disturbed by the killing of civilians, called a halt to trying to establish this plantation.[18]



Similarly if Israel pushes too hard and too violently and too indiscriminately the support for Israel from the US has the potential to evaporate.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Start a thread if you wish to talk about those groups.

Your justification for killing civilians in Gaza is that the IDF are "targeting" Hamas fighters.

If Hamas target the IDF headquarters in Tel Aviv and accidentally hit an apartments or office block and kill civilians then by your standards they would be classed as "collateral damage" right?

Same if they fire rockets into a housing estate, if there are IDF members living nearby but innocent people get killed they are just "collateral damege" right?

What is your answer to these questions?

Either way, it's moot. Hamas are not targeting IDF headquarters or IDF members. They're indiscriminately firing thousands of rockets at population centres, last I checked. But apparently the fact that Israel can defend against them makes them rockets of peace or something.

thomas 123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What is your answer to these questions?

Either way, it's moot. Hamas are not targeting IDF headquarters or IDF members. They're indiscriminately firing thousands of rockets at population centres, last I checked. But apparently the fact that Israel can defend against them makes them rockets of peace or something.

Maybe it’s a cry for help?

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

What is your answer to these questions?

Either way, it's moot. Hamas are not targeting IDF headquarters or IDF members. They're indiscriminately firing thousands of rockets at population centres, last I checked. But apparently the fact that Israel can defend against them makes them rockets of peace or something.

Check again?

“the Palestinian Islamic Resistance movement Hamas says it has targeted the Israeli regime’s Iron Dome stations and an Israeli air base, which is used by Israeli warplanes to bombard civilian targets in the besieged Gaza Strip.”

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-says-hamas-is-targeting-iron-dome-sites-airports-668194

wes

Overheal wrote: »

Check again?

“the Palestinian Islamic Resistance movement Hamas says it has targeted the Israeli regime’s Iron Dome stations and an Israeli air base, which is used by Israeli warplanes to bombard civilian targets in the besieged Gaza Strip.”

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-says-hamas-is-targeting-iron-dome-sites-airports-668194

On that basis, they have to accept the rockets as legitimate self defense to use their own logic......

I reckon Hamas may even have a legal case of self defenses, seeing as they don't have advanced weapons to target properly, and that Israel is the aggressor, with it being the occupier and all. Of course an ICC investigation could find that out for us, but Israel and the US are against it for some reason, and Hamas welcomes it......

Many posters here are all too knowledgeable about Palestinian plight, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But what does matter is the total lack of consideration for what it's like across the border in Israel for millions of civilians who haven't a clue when a rocket is going to destroy their home or kids.

The idea that Israel should sit back and absorb the rockets - with no right to reply, is unrealistic and anti-proportionate.

https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/1393701215041642496

silverharp

Overheal wrote: »

Check again?

“the Palestinian Islamic Resistance movement Hamas says it has targeted the Israeli regime’s Iron Dome stations and an Israeli air base, which is used by Israeli warplanes to bombard civilian targets in the besieged Gaza Strip.”

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-says-hamas-is-targeting-iron-dome-sites-airports-668194

lol , I somehow doubt terrorists have access to precision guided missiles , they probably have the targeting ability of someone with a bottle of coke and some mentos

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

Many posters here are all too knowledgeable about Palestinian plight, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But what does matter is the total lack of consideration for what it's like across the border in Israel for millions of civilians who haven't a clue when a rocket is going to destroy their home or kids.

The idea that Israel should sit back and absorb the rockets - with no right to reply, is unrealistic and anti-proportionate.

https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/1393701215041642496

What do you mean? They have a highly advanced early warning system, with app enabled tie-in. Every Israeli gets the siren, and most get specific alerts on their phone, or by social media, radio, and television. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Color

The Red Color (Hebrew: צבע אדום‎, transl.: Tzeva Adom) is an early-warning radar system installed by the Israel Defense Forces in several towns surrounding the Gaza Strip to warn civilians of imminent attack by rockets (usually Qassam rockets).[1] Outside of areas serviced by the Red Color system, standard air raid sirens are used to warn of rocket attacks.

The system currently operates in all of Israel. When the signature of a rocket launch is detected originating in Gaza, the system automatically activates the public broadcast warning system in nearby Israeli communities and military bases. A recorded female voice, intoning the Hebrew words for Red Color ("Tzeva Adom"), is broadcast 4 times.[2] The entire program is repeated until all rockets have impacted and no further launches are detected.

The system was installed in Ashkelon between July 2005 and April 2006.

Up to 2007, the announcement was called Red Dawn (Hebrew: שחר אדום‎, transl.: Shakhar Adom) but it was changed to the Hebrew words for Red Color (Hebrew: צבע אדום‎) due to a complaint made by a 7-year-old girl named Shakhar (Hebrew for dawn).

It was the subject of a documentary, which focused on how children are to cope with an alert,[3] directed by Yoav Shoam.

Since 2014, alerts have been available on an iPhone application from the App Store. It was the most downloaded app in Israel in July 2014 during Operation Protective Edge.[4] Users can select to receive alerts for rocket attacks nationwide, or only in their districts.

As of 2021, Israelis enjoy multiple flavors of alert app: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/smartphone-applications-offer-rocket-siren-updates-to-international-users-564471

If we're to consider the plight of the Israeli people it's important to be honest about what that plight is. Israelis hide in a reinforced bomb shelter and call that oppressive, but they bomb the streets of Gaza citing tunnels as a concern. Can't tunnels be used as shelter from bombings, too? It seems only Israelis deserve shelter from their neighbors aggression and not the other way around as well.

Overheal

silverharp wrote: »

lol , I somehow doubt terrorists have access to precision guided missiles , they probably have the targeting ability of someone with a bottle of coke and some mentos

Does the sophistication of the weapon detract from its use in an act of terror?

If a terrorist organization gets a hold of a nuclear-MIRV ICBM can we argue that it isn't terrorism if they use it to terrorize a civilian population? You won't find a more sophisticated weapon. Not a man-made one anyway.

Can we say Iran is not a terror state?

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Check again?

“the Palestinian Islamic Resistance movement Hamas says it has targeted the Israeli regime’s Iron Dome stations and an Israeli air base, which is used by Israeli warplanes to bombard civilian targets in the besieged Gaza Strip.”

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-says-hamas-is-targeting-iron-dome-sites-airports-668194

Missed a bit:

On Friday, Press TV, an Iran government channel, said that “the Palestinian Islamic Resistance movement Hamas says it has targeted the Israeli regime’s Iron Dome stations and an Israeli air base, which is used by Israeli warplanes to bombard civilian targets in the besieged Gaza Strip.”

Overheal wrote: »

Can we say Iran is not a terror state?

Seems strange that the Iron Dome, which calculates the trajectory of incoming rockets and only fires if the destination is a populated area, would be popping off all over the place if Hamas were precision-targeting its stations and air bases.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

The idea that Israel should sit back and absorb the rockets - with no right to reply, is unrealistic and anti-proportionate.

By all means reply at clear targets, otherwise be man enough to note that your iron dome will effectively exhaust the qassam stockpiles. Replying at a media center, a refugee camp, a school - these are not immediate threats, even if you can pretend that they are training camps or intelligence centers, they are not the launch sites.

Just seems that, if Israel is practically invincible, it should be able to take a proportionately-enlightened approach and not glass Gaza for making big splashes behind a glass window. More Iron Dome, with more overlapping cover and getting to six-sigma effectiveness, there would then be no reason to bomb homes and schools. Apparently, however, Bibi et al. are happy to have just enough Israelis die to front the cost of a few hundred slaughtered Palestinian civilians.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Missed a bit:

On Friday, Press TV, an Iran government channel, said that “the Palestinian Islamic Resistance movement Hamas says it has targeted the Israeli regime’s Iron Dome stations and an Israeli air base, which is used by Israeli warplanes to bombard civilian targets in the besieged Gaza Strip.”

Indeed, but seeing as how it is agreed by all parties that Iran is sympathetic to Gaza, it seems logical that Iran would be in some level of diplomacy with Hamas, who would be able to relay that.

Seems strange that the Iron Dome, which calculates the trajectory of incoming rockets and only fires if the destination is a populated area, would be popping off all over the place if Hamas were precision-targeting its stations and air bases.

They're qassams, the Palestinians hardly have enjoyed the right to any actual defense weapon system. There is no such thing as precision guidance, so, if they target a military HQ in Tel Aviv there is an alarmingly wide margin of error.

Even with "precision" ordnance, the Israelis seem to hit an awful lot of refugee camps, hospitals, clinics, homes, and schools. Seems strange that the Israeli high tech ordnance claims to be precision-targeting the military, then.

Signore Fancy Pants

silverharp wrote: »

lol , I somehow doubt terrorists have access to precision guided missiles , they probably have the targeting ability of someone with a bottle of coke and some mentos

Well Hizbullah is a designated terrorist organisation (by some countries) and have PGM technology.

Terrorists with state backing (including Hamas) have attempted to use aftermarket GPS technology for unguided rockets.

There is no reason why Hamas could not already have technology at their disposal.

Currently when they say they are targeting, it just means "in the direction of", does not mean precision. If a target is in range of your weapon system, then thats all it means.

silverharp

Overheal wrote: »

Does the sophistication of the weapon detract from its use in an act of terror?

If a terrorist organization gets a hold of a nuclear-MIRV ICBM can we argue that it isn't terrorism if they use it to terrorize a civilian population? You won't find a more sophisticated weapon. Not a man-made one anyway.

Can we say Iran is not a terror state?

im just saying I dont believe what they said their objective is

Overheal

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Well Hizbullah is a designated terrorist organisation (by some countries) and have PGM technology.

Terrorists with state backing (including Hamas) have attempted to use aftermarket GPS technology for unguided rockets.

There is no reason why Hamas could not already have technology at their disposal.

Which sounds like a cellphone and google maps along with some rocket launch math plucked out of a field manual. There's no navigation system on the rockets, it's almost purely a matter of launch angle, a fixed amount of propellant and the fixed aerodynamics.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

They're qassams, the Palestinians hardly have enjoyed the right to any actual defense weapon system. There is no such thing as precision guidance, so, if they target a military HQ in Tel Aviv there is an alarmingly wide margin of error.

And yet they fired the rockets all the same.

And fired them first.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet they fired the rockets all the same.

And fired them first.

Only after they were goaded into doing so by the Israelis with the land grabbing.

Overheal

silverharp wrote: »

im just saying I dont believe what they said their objective is

That's fine I similarly doubt the self-defense narrative by the Israeli's - especially when they bizarrely announced a campaign of 'self defense' for 'at least 2 days.' Surely this is a slip, as any bonafide defense should occur indefinitely and is entirely a reply to an incoming attack, so, unless Hamas had said they plan to attack Israel for 2 more days, then, this position from Israel appears to be a reveal.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-chiefs-fighting-in-gaza-will-continue-for-at-least-two-more-days/

And smack, would you look at the time! Here we are, 2 days later with the US signaling they expect that to happen today. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/19/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-biden.html

Overheal

tayto lover wrote: »

Only after they were goaded into doing so by the Israelis with the land grabbing.

And the hate crimes at al-Aqsa.

Israel could have dusted off from that first volley with barely a scratch, under the Iron Dome. Instead they took it as a green light to clear the guns and demolish some family homes and wipe out some entire families. Condemnable rocket attack, but not as unprovoked as Israel spins in the media.

Signore Fancy Pants

Overheal wrote: »

Which sounds like a cellphone and google maps along with some rocket launch math plucked out of a field manual. There's no navigation system on the rockets, it's almost purely a matter of launch angle, a fixed amount of propellant and the fixed aerodynamics.

Yeah I know what an indirect weapon system is.

Retrofit GPS guidance systems can be bought to turn indirect weapons to precision. Also, Iran use the Fajr-5c missile and Hamas have the Fajr-5.

It's likely that Hamas have or will have this tech in the future.