Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ultimately, my central - indeed, core question, has gone unanswered.

If Israel were, for the sake of argument, an exclusively Shia nation that was disputing territorial rights with a dispossessed Sunni population, would the same people be reacting in the same way, and with the same hostility and obsession, against the hypothetical Shia nation?

I posit no.

That's because Muslim military disputes already take place around the world. But the same people interested in the Israeli question have next to no interest in these other conflicts or situations in which Muslim minorities are somehow dispossessed.

And yes, you've thought of the reason why - the fact Israel is a "Jewish" nation.

That's the only difference. And it's a significant difference, too.

But I am as yet unconvinced of those who argue that Judaism has nothing to do with it. The evidence is strong, too strong, to abandon the very real association between the obsession with this conflict versus what would have happened if you replaced "Jewish" with "Hindu" or "Shia" or any other ethnic or religious group.

We aren’t talking about Sunni or Shiite. We are talking about Israel systematically killing Palestinian children and stealing Palestinian land. No among of strawmen or tangents is going to change that.

Fandymo

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why didn't we ask Northern Irish nationalists to simply move south during the troubles...

We took in child refugees during The Troubles. Didn’t a lot of the Ballymurphy kids get moved to Gormo or to family in the south. So, to answer your question, we did.

Overheal

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Yeah I know what an indirect weapon system is.

Retrofit GPS guidance systems can be bought to turn indirect weapons to precision. Also, Iran use the Fajr-5c missile and Hamas have the Fajr-5.

It's likely that Hamas have or will have this tech in the future.

They have or they don't? I would think if Israel had direct evidence of this we would have seen it this week.

With Israels control of the border I can't imagine how they would smuggle any in, and I'm incredulous that Israel wouldn't be able to spot them immediately through 24/7 monitoring. The last reports I see of any being in Gaza are almost 10 years old and they've been under strict occupation since then. I can't imagine Palestine is still holding any in the Gaza strip? They would have been destroyed years ago in any number of previous skirmishes since then.

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would you say the same thing if it were ISIS or Al Qaeda?



No need for the hyperbole.

Gaza has a population of 2 million people - almost half the population of Ireland.

212 dead Palestinians - how many of them militants?

How many innocent civilians died in zones where Hamas intentionally placed military equipment?

Furthermore, when you factor in all relevant factors, it demonstrates how Israel is trying to be as targeted as possible.

If they wanted mass destruction, the death toll could easily be 100,000 by now.

Soldiers are military targets. Israelis do military service. Surely most of Israel is a military target? Hamas are committing no war crimes based of Zionist logic.

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hamas should not be targeting Israel full stop. Had Hamas not threatened Israel and subsequently bombarded Israel with rockets, Israel would not have responded in the way that it has.

Furthermore, I'd like to see more condemnation for Hamas who place military equipment in civilian zones.

Again, if Hamas were to act more humanely toward the Gazan people, they would not be putting Palestinian lives at risk from Israeli fire. Placing military equipment among apartment blocks is absolutely disgusting.

Israel does issue warnings, but Hamas knows exactly what they are doing and is willing to see Palestinians die for propaganda reasons rather than do the right thing.

But then again, they are a terrorist organization, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Palestine has a right to defend itself. Israel is the occupying force.

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What is your answer to these questions?

Either way, it's moot. Hamas are not targeting IDF headquarters or IDF members. They're indiscriminately firing thousands of rockets at population centres, last I checked. But apparently the fact that Israel can defend against them makes them rockets of peace or something.

Don’t all Israelis do military service?

tayto lover

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why didn't we ask Northern Irish nationalists to simply move south during the troubles...

Many of them had to flee the attacks on their homes.
I made beds and peeled spuds for the refugees as a volunteer in Gormanstown Army Barracks during my school holidays in 1969. Many of the children were severely traumatized.

I can only imagine what it’s like for the poor children of Gaza who have nowhere to flee to. Shame on the Israelis. Awful treatment of human beings.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

What is your answer to these questions?

Either way, it's moot. Hamas are not targeting IDF headquarters or IDF members. They're indiscriminately firing thousands of rockets at population centres, last I checked. But apparently the fact that Israel can defend against them makes them rockets of peace or something.

No that's not it at all. Of course the rocket strike was an act of aggression. But Israel would be practically unharmed by that strike, all you do by bombing schools and children in reply is invite more replies to that reply. The Iron Dome affords them the ability to brush off a rocket attack like water off a ducks back and hold onto the moral high ground with an iron fist. Instead they delight in using the justification for disproportionate response.

Igotadose

Fandymo wrote: »

Don’t all Israelis do military service?

No. Arab citizens of Israel are exempt from military service, among others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exemption_from_military_service_in_Israel

Overheal

Igotadose wrote: »

No. Arab citizens of Israel are exempt from military service, among others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exemption_from_military_service_in_Israel

That reads as an exemption from mandated conscription, still leaving open the possibility of volunteerism. Doesn't necessarily mean exclusion.

Igotadose

Overheal wrote: »

That reads as an exemption from mandated conscription, still leaving open the possibility of volunteerism. Doesn't necessarily mean exclusion.

But, it answers the question, "Don't all Israeli's do military service." They don't. Simple enough to see.

Overheal

LAPD reports it is investigating a possible series of hate crimes by pro-palestinian protestors/rioters who harassed diners in los angeles.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/lapd-investigating-possible-hate-crime-after-pro-palestinian-group-attacks-los-angeles-diners/

Awful behavior. The tactic of harassing diners is gaining notoriety. I hate it, it's super counterproductive to most activist goals. The rest I assume do it for the shock coverage.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

I hate it, it's super counterproductive to most activist goals.

Strange reason to be against hate crimes and violence but okay.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

The Iron Dome affords them the ability to brush off a rocket attack like water off a ducks back and hold onto the moral high ground with an iron fist. Instead they delight in using the justification for disproportionate response.

It is unreasonable to expect any country to allow thousands of rockets to go unanswered.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Strange reason to be against hate crimes and violence but okay.

It's among them. I don't suggest it's the raison d'etre. Obviously, the hate crime in itself being detestable goes without saying. The fact that it is counterproductive to their aims makes it all the more senseless.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

It is unreasonable to expect any country to allow thousands of rockets to go unanswered.

They were answered though, by the Iron Dome. Israel has launched 1000s of guided missiles in reply as part of this system.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

It is unreasonable to expect any country to allow thousands of rockets to go unanswered.

True, but it has to be pointed out that - as the aggressor - Israel provokes these acts, and has been doing so for decades.

Igotadose

Overheal wrote: »

No that's not it at all. Of course the rocket strike was an act of aggression. But Israel would be practically unharmed by that strike, all you do by bombing schools and children in reply is invite more replies to that reply. The Iron Dome affords them the ability to brush off a rocket attack like water off a ducks back and hold onto the moral high ground with an iron fist. Instead they delight in using the justification for disproportionate response.

Not quite the impenetrable shield that the press thinks it is. Lest we forget, in 2019 Hamas launched about 700 rockets of which 240 were not intercepted. (per an article in the Jerusalem Post, anyway.) And various military experts have disparaged the claims of its invulnerability: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/just-how-accurate-israel%E2%80%99s-iron-dome-missile-defense-system-174758

There's a link to a WaPo article (paywalled) in that article that goes into Iron Dome accuracy (or not.)

So, no, rockets are bad, and Iron Dome gets a lot of press, but doesn't stop them all.

PeggyShippen

thomas 123 wrote: »

Peggy - Britain is very responsible for the state of things things in Israel and that region, palastine was the easy place to give the Jewish people a state due to the fact the people were nomadic and disorganized.

It was a crime itself. And the similarities between the Irish situation and this exist - but I guess we can’t say England should not have planted people here either right?

It wasn't the easy place ,it was the only correct place. The Jews were returning after being expelled for rebelling against Rome a couple of thousand years ago. Its their homeland. It wasnt a crime .. your close to being anti semitic

Overheal

Igotadose wrote: »

Not quite the impenetrable shield that the press thinks it is. Lest we forget, in 2019 Hamas launched about 700 rockets of which 240 were not intercepted. (per an article in the Jerusalem Post, anyway.) And various military experts have disparaged the claims of its invulnerability: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/just-how-accurate-israel%E2%80%99s-iron-dome-missile-defense-system-174758

There's a link to a WaPo article (paywalled) in that article that goes into Iron Dome accuracy (or not.)

So, no, rockets are bad, and Iron Dome gets a lot of press, but doesn't stop them all.

Because the system is programmed to ignore incoming rockets that are projected to hit no collateral. They choose to do so because it is ineffective to launch a $40,000 ID missile at a home-made target that will cause $0 of damage.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/18/middleeast/israel-iron-dome-defense-gaza-rockets-intl-cmd/index.html

I thought this was standard undisputed knowledge.

Igotadose

Overheal wrote: »

Because the system is programmed to ignore incoming rockets that are projected to hit no collateral. They choose to do so because it is ineffective to launch a $40,000 ID missile at a home-made target that will cause $0 of damage.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/18/middleeast/israel-iron-dome-defense-gaza-rockets-intl-cmd/index.html

I thought this was standard undisputed knowledge.

Some do get through, and kill people. So, it's not 'water off a ducks back' (your words) to prevent this. And, Hamas are always innovating, the article you linked to mentioned the first time ID was used to prevent a drone strike.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

They were answered though, by the Iron Dome. Israel has launched 1000s of guided missiles in reply as part of this system.

1. The Iron Dome is not 100% effective. It's absolute efficacy declines the greater number of rockets fired into Israel.

2. Israelis have already died due to these rocket attacks.

You have no point whatsoever.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

It is unreasonable to expect any country to allow thousands of rockets to go unanswered.

Is it unreasonable for people to be thrown out of their homes by the IDF so that those homes can be given to settlers?

mcmoustache

PeggyShippen wrote: »

It wasn't the easy place ,it was the only correct place. The Jews were returning after being expelled for rebelling against Rome a couple of thousand years ago. Its their homeland. It wasnt a crime .. your close to being anti semitic

Jews don't live for thousand of years. Like the rest of us, they're lucky to make it to 100. Those who were booted out thousands of years ago were different people to the people there now.

PeggyShippen

tayto lover wrote: »

Is it unreasonable for people to be thrown out of their homes by the IDF so that those homes can be given to settlers?

The IDF are throwing no one out if anywhere .The eviction of tenants is a private civil law matter for the courts and police.
I can feel a 'gortha mor' Famine barrage of messages coming from the left....likening the Palestinians current issues to 1840s Ireland and a crop failure and evictions..

tayto lover

PeggyShippen wrote: »

The IDF are throwing no one out if anywhere .The eviction of tenants is a private civil law matter for the courts and police.
I can feel a 'gortha mor' Famine barrage of messages coming from the left....likening the Palestinians current issues to 1840s Ireland and a crop failure and evictions..

Of course they are. They even changed laws to allow them demolish homes if they want.
It has been documented on this very thread.

Overheal

Igotadose wrote: »

Some do get through, and kill people. So, it's not 'water off a ducks back' (your words) to prevent this.

Are 12 Israelis worth 212 Palestinians?

If an Israeli dies in an initial strike, act proportionately, not disproportionately. Reply to the attacker, not their race.

Israel has total control over Gaza, if they wanted they could sanction the strip in response to such an attack, rather than further escalate the situation into a week long slaughter.

And, Hamas are always innovating, the article you linked to mentioned the first time ID was used to prevent a drone strike.

"Drone strike?" We must be reading 2 different articles, because this doesn't mention anything that suggests the drone was a weapons platform. It would be infinitely more likely it was a conventional consumer drone flown for reconnaissance. I'd be happy to review more information about the target destroyed.

thomas 123

PeggyShippen wrote: »

It wasn't the easy place ,it was the only correct place. The Jews were returning after being expelled for rebelling against Rome a couple of thousand years ago. Its their homeland. It wasnt a crime .. your close to being anti semitic

You came in here calling posters Sinn Fein bots and the first retort you offer is calling me anti semetic?

Oh my I’d be offended more if it wasn’t the 40th time I’ve been called anti semetic, I start to wonder do some of you know what that actually means or is it easy to shout it from the roof tops the moment your views are challenged?

What authority was Britain/UN to gift Arab land to the Jewish people ? It was a stupid idea and has caused all of this crap. It was a pig headed decision by a pig headed crumbling empire really. Hand over their troubled province to someone else and look like they did Jews a favor.

Does the irony of this entire situation rest well with you?

Overheal

PeggyShippen wrote: »

The IDF are throwing no one out if anywhere .The eviction of tenants is a private civil law matter for the courts and police.

Whose law? The Jewish Nation State of Israel's law. The settlements are illegal under international law.

Your argument is playing games with the truth. That only makes it state-sponsored ethnic cleansing.

thomas 123

PeggyShippen wrote: »

The IDF are throwing no one out if anywhere .The eviction of tenants is a private civil law matter for the courts and police.
I can feel a 'gortha mor' Famine barrage of messages coming from the left....likening the Palestinians current issues to 1840s Ireland and a crop failure and evictions..

Bear in mind the palastinians have no representation politically, no police, or courts - but yeah totally legal ...

“A private, civil matter” - amazing.

And ah yes - we can’t compare our history but you can rub the magic book and justify the existence state of Israel on ancient history/accounts - give me strength.