Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

end of the road

PeggyShippen wrote: »

It wasn't the easy place ,it was the only correct place. The Jews were returning after being expelled for rebelling against Rome a couple of thousand years ago. Its their homeland. It wasnt a crime .. your close to being anti semitic

the jews as a whole weren't returning, since a number of them were emmigrants from europe and the US.
it's the homeland of indiginus jews and muslims and anyone else who have lived in that area for generations.
screeching antisemetic does not work anymore.

Igotadose

Overheal wrote: »

Are 12 Israelis worth 212 Palestinians?

If an Israeli dies in an initial strike, act proportionately, not disproportionately. Reply to the attacker, not their race.

Israel has total control over Gaza, if they wanted they could sanction the strip in response to such an attack, rather than further escalate the situation into a week long slaughter.

True. Israel did withdraw in 2005, but unfortunately the peace didn't hold.

"Drone strike?" We must be reading 2 different articles, because this doesn't mention anything that suggests the drone was a weapons platform. It would be infinitely more likely it was a conventional consumer drone flown for reconnaissance. I'd be happy to review more information about the target destroyed.

https://www.defensenews.com/unmanned/2021/05/17/iron-dome-intercepts-drone-during-combat-for-first-time-says-israeli-military/

Seems like it *might* have been similar to the ones that attacked that Saudi oil field a while back. Further, the IDF has systems for 'smaller drones,' like the ones you describe, that don't involve Iron Dome. So, I submit it indeed was a weapons platform of some sort, perhaps a sortie to see if Iron Dome missiles could intercept it.

ChickenDish

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Why would Israel wait 100 years when it could achieve the goal in a week right now. Didnt Israel pull out of Gaza and dismantle the settlements there years ago?
Something doesn't add up..

In case you have not noticed or maybe your totally ignorant of the FACT that Israel has over decades had an extremely aggressive land grab policy from the Palestinians. You talking about a couple of settlements, I'm talking about huge sways of Palestinian land. So what doesn't add up!? The systematic destruction of infrastructure, blockades, displacement, murder etc etc etc.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out Israel are playing the long game, or have decades of genocide not convinced you?!

PeggyShippen

thomas 123 wrote: »

Bear in mind the palastinians have no representation politically, no police, or courts - but yeah totally legal ...

“A private, civil matter” - amazing.

And ah yes - we can’t compare our history but you can rub the magic book and justify the existence state of Israel on ancient history/accounts - give me strength.

Youre questioning the right of existence of Israel. That's slam dunk anti semitic. You're being anti semetic . Its so prevalent in Ireland ,its terrible.

Igotadose

end of the road wrote: »

the jews as a whole weren't returning, since a number of them were emmigrants from europe and the US.
it's the homeland of indiginus jews and muslims and anyone else who have lived in that area for generations.
screeching antisemetic does not work anymore.

Hmm.. Might want to look into the history of the various Zionist movements over the years. Why jews weren't returning is complicated; it's not like they were exactly encouraged by psychopaths like the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and his apprentices like Yasser Arafat.

Overheal

Igotadose wrote: »

True. Israel did withdraw in 2005, but unfortunately the peace didn't hold.

That's because it never was a peace, all they did was move their people out of the way. The occupation continued unabated, the only thing that changed was Israelis moved out of the strip and were handsomely compensated for doing so.

The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[5] This is disputed by Israel and other legal scholars.[6] Following the withdrawal, Israel has continued to maintain direct control over Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings, it maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, and controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[5][7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

thomas 123

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Youre questioning the right of existence of Israel. That's slam dunk anti semitic. You're being anti semetic . Its so prevalent in Ireland ,its terrible.

Ironic comsidering the state of Israel “questions” the state of palastines existance.

Is my opinion and thought worth less than a citizen of Israel? Or does Israel have the final say on all affairs of the world? What’s Israel’s decison on Russia’s annexation of Crimea? What’s Israel’s decision on northern Ireland? Brexit?

tayto lover

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Youre questioning the right of existence of Israel. That's slam dunk anti semitic. You're being anti semetic . Its so prevalent in Ireland ,its terrible.

If wanting fair play for Palestinians is anti-semitic then I’m guilty.

Overheal

Igotadose wrote: »

https://www.defensenews.com/unmanned/2021/05/17/iron-dome-intercepts-drone-during-combat-for-first-time-says-israeli-military/

Seems like it *might* have been similar to the ones that attacked that Saudi oil field a while back. Further, the IDF has systems for 'smaller drones,' like the ones you describe, that don't involve Iron Dome. So, I submit it indeed was a weapons platform of some sort, perhaps a sortie to see if Iron Dome missiles could intercept it.

Hamas’ use of drones is nothing new, but the group recently unveiled a video of the Shehab, a drone that is launched from a kind of catapult, slinging it into the air where it then flies to its target, apparently along a preprogrammed route. The drone includes a warhead, slamming into the target on a kamikaze mission. This is similar to an Iranian Ababil and the Qasef used by Houthi rebels in Yemen; the latter is based on the former.

Fair enough. Drones used as rockets. I'm never getting my drone license am I.

end of the road

PeggyShippen wrote: »

The IDF are throwing no one out if anywhere .The eviction of tenants is a private civil law matter for the courts and police.
I can feel a 'gortha mor' Famine barrage of messages coming from the left....likening the Palestinians current issues to 1840s Ireland and a crop failure and evictions..

incorrect, non-jewish people are and have had their houses, the houses they own stolen from them and given to jewish settlers, or simply demolished just because.

end of the road

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Youre questioning the right of existence of Israel. That's slam dunk anti semitic. You're being anti semetic . Its so prevalent in Ireland ,its terrible.

you are incorrect on all counts.

thomas 123

end of the road wrote: »

you are incorrect on all counts.

Shocking really - didn’t matter how many times I made crystal clear I was discussing the state of Israel and not Jewish people... but the leap was still made.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Israel has total control over Gaza, if they wanted they could sanction the strip in response to such an attack, rather than further escalate the situation into a week long slaughter.

Let's put your words into practice.

Let's say 3,500 rockets arrive from Gaza into Israel on Monday.

Israel releases a statement "sanctioning the strip".

Tuesday, a further 3,500 rockets arrive from Gaza.

Wednesday, a further 5,000 rockets arrive from Gaza.

All meanwhile, in your understanding, Israel should not respond at all because it risks killing civilians in Gaza. Just let the rockets rain down on a tiny territory and do nothing. Iron Dome is not 100% effective, so many Israelis will die.

Are you serious?

This is moonshine of the highest quality.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is unreasonable to expect any country to allow thousands of rockets to go unanswered.

And it's unreasonable to expect any people to have thier homes taken from them at a whim, to have food and aid blocked from getting to them, to have vaccines stopped at the border and to be shot/beaten just for practicing thier faith yet this happens to the Palestinians on a regular basis!

ChickenDish

ChickenDish wrote: »

Israel won't stop until there is no Palestine, they have for many years been guilty of Genocide and will continue to be so.

100 years from now, Israel will have achieved their goal and displaced, eradicated, land grabbed their way to the one state solution because there will be no Palestine.

Israel have and always do as they please regardless of international condemnation from some countries. The likes of America are happy to let them carpet bomb civilians and destroy infrastructure.

Israel are getting rockets fired on its civilians on a routine basis. If somebody fired rockets at Russia or China you can be damn sure they wouldn't take it lying down, and why should they when they have the military capability to retaliate?

Here's a first step to peace - Hamas to stop firing rockets, and the people to stop supporting Hamas who have some culpability in this also.

Overheal

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Youre questioning the right of existence of Israel. That's slam dunk anti semitic. You're being anti semetic . Its so prevalent in Ireland ,its terrible.

No, it's slam dunk Anti-Zionist.

Israel, despite wishing to be thought of itself as being Jewish, is not itself Jewish. It is a sovereignty. It is made up of many people of many races and many creeds. The majority are Jewish, whom have declared it their Nation State, but this does not mean criticism of zionism is a racist attack on the Jewry. That's a load of bull.

cameramonkey

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entire-palestinian-families-hamas-1.9820005

Israel accused of wiping out entire families deliberately.

tayto lover

eskimohunt wrote: »

Let's put your words into practice.

Let's say 3,500 rockets arrive from Gaza into Israel on Monday.

Israel releases a statement "sanctioning the strip".

Tuesday, a further 3,500 rockets arrive from Gaza.

Wednesday, a further 5,000 rockets arrive from Gaza.

All meanwhile, in your understanding, Israel should not respond at all because it risks killing civilians in Gaza. Just let the rockets rain down on a tiny territory and do nothing. Iron Dome is not 100% effective, so many Israelis will die.

Are you serious?

This is moonshine of the highest quality.

And treating the Palestinians like animals is ok with you?
Oh the irony.

igCorcaigh

ChickenDish wrote: »

It doesn't take a genius to figure out Israel are playing the long game, or have decades of genocide not convinced you?!

What is Israel's ultimate end game objective though?
Happy to put up with constant low level violence and a war every few years, ad infinitum?

Is that pretty much it?
They seem happy enough for the status quo to continue, so I assume it's a Yes.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

Let's put your words into practice.

Let's say 3,500 rockets arrive from Gaza into Israel on Monday.

Israel releases a statement "sanctioning the strip".

Tuesday, a further 3,500 rockets arrive from Gaza.

Wednesday, a further 5,000 rockets arrive from Gaza.

All meanwhile, in your understanding, Israel should not respond at all because it risks killing civilians in Gaza. Just let the rockets rain down on a tiny territory and do nothing. Iron Dome is not 100% effective, so many Israelis will die.

Are you serious?

This is moonshine of the highest quality.

That's going to be the point at which Israel's reply strikes would be overwhelmingly more justified than they are currently.

As for your figures they seem hyperbolic: It's taken 8 days to launch 3,200 rockets. A more accurate projection in your scenario would be a nightly launch of up to 400 or so.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

If wanting fair play for Palestinians is anti-semitic then I’m guilty.

If Palestinians had a state how do you think it would play out?

I would predict the following: they would immediately start building a military, probably receive weapons and training from the Saudis or Iranians, and before too long you would see a war between Israel and the newly created State of Palestine.

People seem to view the Palestinians as these innocent little lambs who just want to get along with their lives in peace. I don't think it's as nice as that. I think they harbour a deep hatred of Israel and the Jews and there is no amount of appeasement that Israel can do that will ever satisfy them. On the contrary, and sign of weakness will be exploited to its fullest. Israel can only exist by being unrelentingly aggressive in targeting Hamas.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

If Palestinians had a state how do you think it would play out?

I would predict the following: they would immediately start building a military, probably receive weapons and training from the Saudis or Iranians, and before too long you would see a war between Israel and the newly created State of Palestine.

People seem to view the Palestinians as these innocent little lambs who just want to get along with their lives in peace. I don't think it's as nice as that. I think they harbour a deep hatred of Israel and the Jews and there is no amount of appeasement that Israel can do that will ever satisfy them. On the contrary, and sign of weakness will be exploited to its fullest. Israel can only exist by being unrelentingly aggressive in targeting Hamas.

So you oppose the 2 state solution?

What is your alternative?

Every nation has the right to a military.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

No, it's slam dunk Anti-Zionist.

Israel, despite wishing to be thought of itself as being Jewish, is not itself Jewish. It is a sovereignty. It is made up of many people of many races and many creeds. The majority are Jewish, whom have declared it their Nation State, but this does not mean criticism of zionism is a racist attack on the Jewry. That's a load of bull.

That for me is a clear distinction between Israel and its neighbours. It's possible to be an Arab in Israel and live a normal, happy life without danger. By contrast it's getting nearly impossible for any Jew to live in any Arab countries anymore, hence why the Jewish population has gone to nearly zero in places like Egypt or Lebanon where once they were big communities.

igCorcaigh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If Palestinians had a state how do you think it would play out?

I would predict the following: they would immediately start building a military, probably receive weapons and training from the Saudis or Iranians, and before too long you would see a war between Israel and the newly created State of Palestine.

People seem to view the Palestinians as these innocent little lambs who just want to get along with their lives in peace. I don't think it's as nice as that. I think they harbour a deep hatred of Israel and the Jews and there is no amount of appeasement that Israel can do that will ever satisfy them. On the contrary, and sign of weakness will be exploited to its fullest. Israel can only exist by being unrelentingly aggressive in targeting Hamas.

I understand this fear too.
But done gradually, with security commitments and guarantees, the hatred should reduce and security increase.

Is it not worth trying? Israel will continue to have a vast military advantage.
It's not like that scenario you project will come about overnight.

thomas 123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If Palestinians had a state how do you think it would play out?

I would predict the following: they would immediately start building a military, probably receive weapons and training from the Saudis or Iranians, and before too long you would see a war between Israel and the newly created State of Palestine.

People seem to view the Palestinians as these innocent little lambs who just want to get along with their lives in peace. I don't think it's as nice as that. I think they harbour a deep hatred of Israel and the Jews and there is no amount of appeasement that Israel can do that will ever satisfy them. On the contrary, and sign of weakness will be exploited to its fullest. Israel can only exist by being unrelentingly aggressive in targeting Hamas.

Then I will would all be here condemning palastine. Who are we to deny them the right of self determination?

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

That for me is a clear distinction between Israel and its neighbours. It's possible to be an Arab in Israel and live a normal, happy life without danger. By contrast it's getting nearly impossible for any Jew to live in any Arab countries anymore, hence why the Jewish population has gone to nearly zero in places like Egypt or Lebanon where once they were big communities.

Relevance?

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

So you oppose the 2 state solution?

What is your alternative?

Every nation has the right to a military.

On balance I probably prefer the 2 state solution, although I wouldn't mind the "Palestinian" land to be usurped by neighbouring countries like Jordan, Egypt or Syria. If they don't want anything to do with it, then I guess a 2 state solution but with some type of demilitarised no-mans land under UN control to separate Israel and Palestine.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

On balance I probably prefer the 2 state solution, although I wouldn't mind the "Palestinian" land to be usurped by neighbouring countries like Jordan, Egypt or Syria. If they don't want anything to do with it, then I guess a 2 state solution but with some type of demilitarised no-mans land under UN control to separate Israel and Palestine.

The UN seems to have no keen interest in a DMZ. Read: The US has no interest in a DMZ. But that said, surely the DMZ has been proposed in the past and surely there are strong reasons against it I wonder.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Relevance?

Relevance? Israel, despite being more tolerant and welcoming of different creeds and colours, is somehow deemed to be the evil "nazi" country and they are somehow racist even though their neighbours are in fact more fitting of those descriptions. None of this would be happening if the rockets weren't fired regularly at its citizens.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

That for me is a clear distinction between Israel and its neighbours. It's possible to be an Arab in Israel and live a normal, happy life without danger. By contrast it's getting nearly impossible for any Jew to live in any Arab countries anymore, hence why the Jewish population has gone to nearly zero in places like Egypt or Lebanon where once they were big communities.

Is it now.....

As a Palestinian from within Israel I have long been a second-class citizen, denied basic rights


Like the vast majority of Palestinians inside Israel, I grew up in a separate Arab community and was educated in a separate Arab school system, from kindergarten to high school. As a law student, I was not able to rent a flat in the city of Rishon LeZion because of my background, and needed the help of a Jewish family friend, who signed the lease instead of me – to deceive those who are prejudiced.


As a young lawyer, I needed medical treatment after I was assaulted in October 2001 by several baton-wielding police officers; residents of my home town were protesting against the confiscation of land, including that which belonged to my family. Every time I travelled abroad to study, I was racially profiled at the airport.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/19/peaceful-coexistence-israel-myth-palestinian-denied-rights