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Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

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    #2552
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,483 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Relevance? Israel, despite being more tolerant and welcoming of different creeds and colours, is somehow deemed to be the evil "nazi" country and they are somehow racist even though their neighbours are in fact more fitting of those descriptions. None of this would be happening if the rockets weren't fired regularly at its citizens.

    So, whataboutery.

    Saudi Arabia or Iran etc. beheading women and raping children is an entirely separate matter to Israel carrying out a campaign of slow-drip ethnic cleansing. One does not have any causal connection to the other.


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    #2553
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Relevance? Israel, despite being more tolerant and welcoming of different creeds and colours, is somehow deemed to be the evil "nazi" country and they are somehow racist even though their neighbours are in fact more fitting of those descriptions. None of this would be happening if the rockets weren't fired regularly at its citizens.




    Why are they firing rockets at Israel?


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    #2554
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Relevance? Israel, despite being more tolerant and welcoming of different creeds and colours, is somehow deemed to be the evil "nazi" country and they are somehow racist even though their neighbours are in fact more fitting of those descriptions. None of this would be happening if the rockets weren't fired regularly at its citizens.

    They are quite literally racist in the manner in which they run the country.

    - state sponsored settlements in palastinian land
    - stealing and demolishing homes of non Isralies
    - 3 tier “citizen” system based solely on religion
    - no votes for palistinians, no representation, no services.

    They are the country in question here, feel free to start a new thread on any other country you would like to discusse..


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    #2555
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    I understand this fear too.
    But done gradually, with security commitments and guarantees, the hatred should reduce and security increase.

    Is it not worth trying? Israel will continue to have a vast military advantage.
    It's not like that scenario you project will come about overnight.

    Possibly worth trying, the problem is, what if it all goes belly up and ends in a war? Do you dismantle Palestine? The genie will be out of the bottle by that stage. It will be perpetual war until Israel eventually loses. I just can't see Palestine operating a country and not be constantly waging war on Israel as soon as they have a military.

    The day Israel loses a war is the day it ceases to exist.


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    #2556
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Relevance? Israel, despite being more tolerant and welcoming of different creeds and colours, is somehow deemed to be the evil "nazi" country and they are somehow racist even though their neighbours are in fact more fitting of those descriptions. None of this would be happening if the rockets weren't fired regularly at its citizens.

    What about the 5 million people on the West Bank and Gaza under their military rule who have little or no rights and no say in their occupation by Israel? They live in ghettos and have been displaced. Where's the tolerance and welcome for them??


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    #2557
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,483 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    What about the 5 million people on the West Bank and Gaza under their military rule who have little or no rights and no say in their occupation by Israel? They live in ghettos and have been displaced. Where's the tolerance and welcome for them??

    4 WHOLE hours of electricity per day, namloc. Obviously. Plenty of tolerance!


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    #2558
    Pussyhands
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Facebook deleted a pro Israel facebook page with 75m followers. Claims of muslim hate.

    Now, I'm sure if there was a Palestinean page with 75m followers there'd be Jew hate.

    In no way should Mark Zuckerburg be gatekeeper of society.


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    #2559
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Why are they firing rockets at Israel?

    Because they hate Israel and the Israeli people. When Israel was first set up there were no discussions about Palestine or a Palestinian people. Israel was invaded from Day 1 by the surrounding hostile countries. They had no intention of creating a Palestinian state. The hatred was there back in 1948, 1967, 1973 and it remains today. The Palestinians will not be happy until Israel is driven into the sea.


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    #2560
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,528 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Possibly worth trying, the problem is, what if it all goes belly up and ends in a war? Do you dismantle Palestine? The genie will be out of the bottle by that stage. It will be perpetual war until Israel eventually loses. I just can't see Palestine operating a country and not be constantly waging war on Israel as soon as they have a military.

    The day Israel loses a war is the day it ceases to exist.

    It won't happen like that. It can't.
    There will be enforceable guarantees and Israel will always have the upper hand.

    The current trajectory is far more risky for the war you suggest.
    The situation is unstainable. No type of stable future can be built on fear and violence.
    It's a dysfunctional way for any country to operate.

    I really believe that the people of Israel and the wider region deserve better.


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    #2561
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,483 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Facebook deleted a pro Israel facebook page with 75m followers. Claims of muslim hate.

    Now, I'm sure if there was a Palestinean page with 75m followers there'd be Jew hate.

    In no way should Mark Zuckerburg be gatekeeper of society.

    I imagine groups on the site both Israel/Palestine have had strikes against them.

    Nobody appointed Facebook such a gatekeeper. Facebook has as only as much 'gatekeeping on society' as society consents to have it facilitate. It's a private carrier of social connections.


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    #2562
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    So, whataboutery.

    Saudi Arabia or Iran etc. beheading women and raping children is an entirely separate matter to Israel carrying out a campaign of slow-drip ethnic cleansing. One does not have any causal connection to the other.

    Whataboutery or perspective to put it another way. Nobody gives a damn about the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab countries. Somehow for expulsion of Jews it's "understood" that they should not be living in those countries. In those cases nobody talks of "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing". I don't get that double standard.


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    #2563
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Facebook deleted a pro Israel facebook page with 75m followers. Claims of muslim hate.

    Now, I'm sure if there was a Palestinean page with 75m followers there'd be Jew hate.

    In no way should Mark Zuckerburg be gatekeeper of society.

    You mean Mark Zuckerberg who is a Jew and was raised a Jew? That Mark Zuckerberg?


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    #2564
    Fuascailteoir
    Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Fuascailteoir


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    That for me is a clear distinction between Israel and its neighbours. It's possible to be an Arab in Israel and live a normal, happy life without danger. By contrast it's getting nearly impossible for any Jew to live in any Arab countries anymore, hence why the Jewish population has gone to nearly zero in places like Egypt or Lebanon where once they were big communities.

    A normal happy life until some right wing nut decides that they want to live in your house and you have to move out into the street to accommodate them


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    #2565
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Because they hate Israel and the Israeli people. When Israel was first set up there were no discussions about Palestine or a Palestinian people. Israel was invaded from Day 1 by the surrounding hostile countries. They had no intention of creating a Palestinian state. The hatred was there back in 1948, 1967, 1973 and it remains today. The Palestinians will not be happy until Israel is driven into the sea.




    And its nothing to do with the on-going colonisation of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem and the Golan?


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    #2566
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,483 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Because they hate Israel and the Israeli people. When Israel was first set up there were no discussions about Palestine or a Palestinian people. Israel was invaded from Day 1 by the surrounding hostile countries. They had no intention of creating a Palestinian state. The hatred was there back in 1948, 1967, 1973 and it remains today. The Palestinians will not be happy until Israel is driven into the sea.

    Why do they hate them?

    Might it have something to do with the ethnic cleansing?

    2000 years ago the Romans ethnically cleansed the area. Israelis show up one day and ethnically-cleanse it back, against people who are not exactly Romans.


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    #2567
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Because they hate Israel and the Israeli people. When Israel was first set up there were no discussions about Palestine or a Palestinian people. Israel was invaded from Day 1 by the surrounding hostile countries. They had no intention of creating a Palestinian state. The hatred was there back in 1948, 1967, 1973 and it remains today. The Palestinians will not be happy until Israel is driven into the sea.

    That is a total fabrication and an alternative history you have come up with there. None of that is even close to the actual history of the conflict. Are you claiming all the Palestinian people are the same? Do you think they deserve collective punishment?


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    #2568
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,528 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Because they hate Israel and the Israeli people. When Israel was first set up there were no discussions about Palestine or a Palestinian people. Israel was invaded from Day 1 by the surrounding hostile countries. They had no intention of creating a Palestinian state. The hatred was there back in 1948, 1967, 1973 and it remains today. The Palestinians will not be happy until Israel is driven into the sea.

    They sure do. The hatred from Gaza to Israel is very real.

    I was watching a news report with a mother who lost her daughter and her daughter's children in an airstrike in Gaza.
    She expressed her mourning, but also that the resistance was more precious than those who she was grieving for.

    This is the kind of long running anger that runs through society in Gaza.
    It is caused by Israel's actions IMHO, current and historic, and one that puts Israel in a bind that we are discussing WTB.

    It has to be undone.


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    #2569
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 52,012 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Possibly worth trying, the problem is, what if it all goes belly up and ends in a war? Do you dismantle Palestine? The genie will be out of the bottle by that stage. It will be perpetual war until Israel eventually loses. I just can't see Palestine operating a country and not be constantly waging war on Israel as soon as they have a military.

    The day Israel loses a war is the day it ceases to exist.

    It won’t lose a war though. (and you know that).
    It will be backed to the hilt by the US.
    It has broken UN sanctions galore and no comeback at all.
    They are literally getting away with murder.


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    #2570
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,483 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Whataboutery or perspective to put it another way. Nobody gives a damn about the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab countries. Somehow for expulsion of Jews it's "understood" that they should not be living in those countries. In those cases nobody talks of "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing". I don't get that double standard.

    Apparently you don't either.

    You were entreated by at least several other people in this thread to go start threads about any number of the whataboutisms you've raised here.

    There is no double standard, I have seen no views here expressed that support the ethnic cleansing of the Jewry from other countries. Simply, we are discussing the conflict between Palestine and Israel. Atrocities visited upon Jewry in other parts of the world are not being cited as a reason for Israeli military action, nor Hamas military action. So I have yet to be shown the relevance.


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    #2571
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Facebook deleted a pro Israel facebook page with 75m followers. Claims of muslim hate.

    Now, I'm sure if there was a Palestinean page with 75m followers there'd be Jew hate.

    In no way should Mark Zuckerburg be gatekeeper of society.


    You find it strange and objectionable that someone brought up in the Jewish faith has an issue with how Israel treats Muslims?


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    #2572
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,483 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    You find it strange and objectionable that someone brought up in the Jewish faith has an issue with how Israel treats Muslims?

    Are we lacking some context? I feel like I lack context. I haven't seen this FB group story.


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    #2573
    Pussyhands
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    You mean Mark Zuckerberg who is a Jew and was raised a Jew? That Mark Zuckerberg?

    And? Jews can be anti Israel too.


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    #2574
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,483 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Oh, actual anti-semitism pointed at Mark Zuckerbeg?
    Facebook deleted a pro Israel facebook page with 75m followers. Claims of muslim hate.

    Now, I'm sure if there was a Palestinean page with 75m followers there'd be Jew hate.

    In no way should Mark Zuckerburg be gatekeeper of society.

    Did you say this because of Zuckerburg's Jewish affiliation? If so, audience observe, that would be antisemitism.


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    #2575
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Odhinn wrote: »
    And its nothing to do with the on-going colonisation of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem and the Golan?

    In my opinion the invasion in 1948 was evidence of the hatred long before what you are describing. I think it's rooted in anti-semitism, judging by how the Jews are treated in places like Egpyt, Syria and Lebanon and how so many of them had to flee those countries. The Middle East is a place of dark undercurrents and tribal resentments. I think the idea of creating a utopia in the Israel/Palestine situation is naive, misguided and doomed to failure. Israel is the only Jewish homeland. There is nowhere else for them to go to. The Arabs have many neighbouring countries they could move to if they had to.


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    #2576
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    And? Jews can be anti Israel too.

    Yep normally because they realise that Israel treats Palestinians in similar fashions to how they were treated throughout history.


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    #2577
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    And? Jews can be anti Israel too.

    Maybe he's an antisemitic Jew?


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    #2578
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,483 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Deleted User wrote: »
    In my opinion the invasion in 1948 was evidence of the hatred long before what you are describing. I think it's rooted in anti-semitism, judging by how the Jews are treated in places like Egpyt, Syria and Lebanon and how so many of them had to flee those countries. The Middle East is a place of dark undercurrents and tribal resentments. I think the idea of creating a utopia in the Israel/Palestine situation is naive, misguided and doomed to failure. Israel is the only Jewish homeland. There is nowhere else for them to go to. The Arabs have many neighbouring countries they could move to if they had to.

    Isn't it a bit racist to assume that Palestinians, Saudis, Egyptians, Ethiopians, Lebanese, Turkish, Iranians, etc. are all interchangeable just "Arab, sure you can all sit together"

    Palestine has clearly made its intention known that it wants sovereignty, not dissolution into Lebanon or wherever.


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    #2579
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Deleted User wrote: »
    In my opinion the invasion in 1948 was evidence of the hatred long before what you are describing. I think it's rooted in anti-semitism, judging by how the Jews are treated in places like Egpyt, Syria and Lebanon and how so many of them had to flee those countries. The Middle East is a place of dark undercurrents and tribal resentments. I think the idea of creating a utopia in the Israel/Palestine situation is naive, misguided and doomed to failure. Israel is the only Jewish homeland. There is nowhere else for them to go to. The Arabs have many neighbouring countries they could move to if they had to.

    700,000 Palestinians were displaced by Israeli/Jewish militants in 1948. Their towns and villages were destroyed. Do you think the Arab countries should have stood by and done nothing about this ethnic cleansing?


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    #2580
    Hego Damask
    Registered Users Posts: 842 ✭✭✭Hego Damask


    Very emotive topic, I am reading Robert Fisk great war for civilization, he would be more pro Palestine but he is slightly more balanced than most Irish media.


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    #2581
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    Isn't it a bit racist to assume that Palestinians, Saudis, Egyptians, Ethiopians, Lebanese, Turkish, Iranians, etc. are all interchangeable just "Arab, sure you can all sit together"

    Palestine has clearly made its intention known that it wants sovereignty, not dissolution into Lebanon or wherever.

    I think Egypt, Syria and Lebanon and Jordan are pretty compatible cultures for Palestinians to move into if they had to. I don't see how that is racist.


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