Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

........................
The Middle East is a place of dark undercurrents and tribal resentments. I think the idea of creating a utopia in the Israel/Palestine situation is naive, misguided and doomed to failure. Israel is the only Jewish homeland. There is nowhere else for them to go to. The Arabs have many neighbouring countries they could move to if they had to.

The hatred of Israel is due to its annexation of lands outside its legally recognised borders and its expulsion of Palestinians from land it wants.





You realise that "Arabs" is, when correctly used, the same as "European". Belgium and Germany are both European, but are not the same. Likewise Arabs, who are not some amorphous mass.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

I think Egypt, Syria and Lebanon and Jordan are pretty compatible cultures for Palestinians to move into if they had to. I don't see how that is racist.

You are literally referring to them all collectively as "Arab" and are making the argument that since they are all Arab they can all get along culturally.

I don't know how to spell that out as racism any clearer to you. You are making stereotypical assumptions about a broad categorization of people based on their race, expressly to argue to the point that they should just abandon Palestine and assimilate into other nations citing their race as the reason. More importantly, it's just overbasic, bad argument that doesn't take any consideration to national, religious, and cultural, genetic, linguistic etc. etc. distinctions between Palestinians and other nations in the Arab league.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

I think Egypt, Syria and Lebanon and Jordan are pretty compatible cultures for Palestinians to move into if they had to. I don't see how that is racist.

Serious anti Muslim/Arab racism going on here the last few pages, this one being a prime example. This amounts to: "shur they're all the same, why can't we just ethically cleanse Palestinians from their homeland and lump them in with other Arabs, they're all the same".

tayto lover

Odhinn wrote: »

You realise that "Arabs" is, when correctly used, the same as "European". Belgium and Germany are both European, but are not the same. Likewise Arabs, who are not some amorphous mass.

I don’t believe he actually does know that.

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

700,000 Palestinians were displaced by Israeli/Jewish militants in 1948. Their towns and villages were destroyed. Do you think the Arab countries should have stood by and done nothing about this ethnic cleansing?

And yet they did nothing about it until the day Israel declared it's statehood. Strange that.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet they did nothing about it until the day Israel declared it's statehood. Strange that.

What do you define as "nothing?" Do you include Diplomacy?

jam_mac_jam

namloc1980 wrote: »

Serious anti Muslim/Arab racism going on here the last few pages, this one being a prime example. This amounts to: "shur they're all the same, why can't we just ethically cleanse Palestinians from their homeland and lump them in with other Arabs, they're all the same".

Yes but criticism of Isreal is antisemitic. Yet excepting millions of people to move country and expecting other countries to take them is a logical solution. Just because they are Arab.

And that's not racism or discrimination because something something 1948. ..Jordan Eygpt..their grandparents made a bad decision..or didn't just die..and decided to hang around. In their own country.

And they are antisemitic so they deserve it.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet they did nothing about it until the day Israel declared it's statehood. Strange that.

Because Britain was running the Palestine mandate up to that point. The British didn't defend the Palestinians but if the surrounding countries had stepped in prior to Israel declaration of independence they would have been attacking Britain in effect. I'm sure they didn't want to take that particular step. So no it's not strange at all

igCorcaigh

I remember the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon.

War is hell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4LIiJsw0R0

Overheal

I'd like to introduce the phrase, John Walker logic - minor spoilers for Falcon and the Winter Soldier:

John Walker still blames anyone else for his shortcomings. In fighting Sam and Bucky this week, he repeatedly says “Why are you making me do this?” He’s convinced that everything he does is right because “I am Captain America.”

https://www.thewrap.com/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-supposed-to-sympathize-with-john-walker/

It's a flawed ideology that shifts blame and improperly justifies escalation of force.

igCorcaigh

Overheal wrote: »

I'd like to introduce the phrase, John Walker logic - minor spoilers for Falcon and the Winter Soldier:



https://www.thewrap.com/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-supposed-to-sympathize-with-john-walker/

It's a flawed ideology that shifts blame and improperly justifies escalation of force.

See what you made me do?

Five Eighth

Pussyhands wrote: »

And? Jews can be anti Israel too.

Long playing record.

Any individual, NGO, State, etc. that finds fault with the actions of the Israeli government are dubbed 'Anti-sematic'.

Any member of the Jewish faith who criticizes the actions of the Israeli government is called a 'Self-hater'.


Is there any possibility that criticisms of Israel are based only on right and wrong? Ordinary people with no axe to grind watching people being evicted from their homes and land and innocent women and children being murdered. Is it possible to those supporters of Israel that people might just be acting from a humanitarian perspective?

Mad_maxx

Hego Damask wrote: »

Very emotive topic, I am reading Robert Fisk great war for civilization, he would be more pro Palestine but he is slightly more balanced than most Irish media.

try completely pro palestinian

Fandymo

Igotadose wrote: »

No. Arab citizens of Israel are exempt from military service, among others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exemption_from_military_service_in_Israel

Someone said 20% of Israelis are Arabs. So 80% of Israelis do military service. So 80% of citizens are military targets? So Hamas have committed no foul. The other 20% would be collateral damage if hit? That’s what the Israelis call dead women and children isn’t it??

end of the road

thomas 123 wrote: »

Shocking really - didn’t matter how many times I made crystal clear I was discussing the state of Israel and not Jewish people... but the leap was still made.

because ultimately it's all they have got seeing as they are unable to counteract the facts, and it did used to work for them one time.
but the tide is changing thankfully and trying to smeer people as being antisemetic is now failing hard.

eskimohunt wrote: »

Let's put your words into practice.

Let's say 3,500 rockets arrive from Gaza into Israel on Monday.

Israel releases a statement "sanctioning the strip".

Tuesday, a further 3,500 rockets arrive from Gaza.

Wednesday, a further 5,000 rockets arrive from Gaza.

All meanwhile, in your understanding, Israel should not respond at all because it risks killing civilians in Gaza. Just let the rockets rain down on a tiny territory and do nothing. Iron Dome is not 100% effective, so many Israelis will die.

Are you serious?

This is moonshine of the highest quality.

you do know they are failing to stop the rockets by bombing schools, hospitals, media buildings and apartments, yes?

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Israel are getting rockets fired on its civilians on a routine basis. If somebody fired rockets at Russia or China you can be damn sure they wouldn't take it lying down, and why should they when they have the military capability to retaliate?

Here's a first step to peace - Hamas to stop firing rockets, and the people to stop supporting Hamas who have some culpability in this also.

israel deliberately engages in actions to bring about rocket fire which they can then use as an excuse for their ethnic cleansing and war crimes.
china is of course engaging in ethnic cleansing of it's own.
hamas stopping firing rockets and people no longer supporting hamas won't do anything, seeing as israel is not interested in actual peace.
hamas are entitled to defend their state against genocide, ethnic cleansing and land theft and colonization.

Deleted User wrote: »

If Palestinians had a state how do you think it would play out?

I would predict the following: they would immediately start building a military, probably receive weapons and training from the Saudis or Iranians, and before too long you would see a war between Israel and the newly created State of Palestine.

People seem to view the Palestinians as these innocent little lambs who just want to get along with their lives in peace. I don't think it's as nice as that. I think they harbour a deep hatred of Israel and the Jews and there is no amount of appeasement that Israel can do that will ever satisfy them. On the contrary, and sign of weakness will be exploited to its fullest. Israel can only exist by being unrelentingly aggressive in targeting Hamas.

well yeah, states generally do have a military of some sort.
israel existed before hamas and the PLO so your final claim has no validity.

Deleted User wrote: »

That for me is a clear distinction between Israel and its neighbours. It's possible to be an Arab in Israel and live a normal, happy life without danger. By contrast it's getting nearly impossible for any Jew to live in any Arab countries anymore, hence why the Jewish population has gone to nearly zero in places like Egypt or Lebanon where once they were big communities.

it's possible to be n arab, but living a happy life free from danger and with rights is not guaranteed.

Deleted User wrote: »

Relevance? Israel, despite being more tolerant and welcoming of different creeds and colours, is somehow deemed to be the evil "nazi" country and they are somehow racist even though their neighbours are in fact more fitting of those descriptions. None of this would be happening if the rockets weren't fired regularly at its citizens.

all of this would be happening even if there were no rockets being fired.
israel is described as it is due to it's behaviour, much of which is just as befitting to it as it's neighbours, and a lot of it more befitting to it then it ever could be to it's neighbours, ironically enough.

Overheal

Mad_maxx wrote: »

try completely pro palestinian

Are there flaws in his argument?

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think Egypt, Syria and Lebanon and Jordan are pretty compatible cultures for Palestinians to move into if they had to. I don't see how that is racist.

Would you have suggested that the Irish should have moved to Canada, Australia, America if they didn't like the British presence in the North? I mean they are pretty compatible cultures for Irish to move into if they had to.

Overheal

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Would you have suggested that the Irish should have moved to Canada, Australia, America if they didn't like the British presence in the North? I mean they are pretty compatible cultures for Irish to move into if they had to.

'Sure the Irish are well liked in most of the US and 6 million is a drop in the bucket for such good compatriots. Please dissolve the Republic of Ireland and surrender it to the crown at your earliest convenience, ta, party in Chicago.'

igCorcaigh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Possibly worth trying, the problem is, what if it all goes belly up and ends in a war? Do you dismantle Palestine? The genie will be out of the bottle by that stage. It will be perpetual war until Israel eventually loses. I just can't see Palestine operating a country and not be constantly waging war on Israel as soon as they have a military.

The day Israel loses a war is the day it ceases to exist.

How do you feel about the One State solution WTB?
Could a unified state of Israel, Gaza and the OT be a viable solution?

Of course, it wouldn't be a Jewish state, but a secular, pluralist and democratic one.
Do you think this is a viable option?

PeggyShippen

Hego Damask wrote: »

Very emotive topic, I am reading Robert Fisk great war for civilization, he would be more pro Palestine but he is slightly more balanced than most Irish media.

Robert Fisk was a good correspondent but probably the most pro Palestinian in world reporting outside of Al jazeera. So that tells you where most irish media are right now...they are about as biased against Israel as you can get. Its the universities in Ireland.. little more than left wing induction centres administered by communist professors...almost completely over run

Timberrrrrrrr

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Again this post is anti semitic. Comparing the holocaust and death of 6 million Jews to today's events in the middle East. 'Making the same mistakes as the Nazis made,' again this is an anti semitic trope and comes within the parameters of anti semitic posting. The mods here would want to wake up

Ah take your pearl clutching elsewhere.

igCorcaigh

PeggyShippen wrote: »

universities in Ireland.. little more than left wing induction centres administered by communist professors

Can I ask you where you live PS?

edit: Mods: let me know if this is out of order

PeggyShippen

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Would you have suggested that the Irish should have moved to Canada, Australia, America if they didn't like the British presence in the North? I mean they are pretty compatible cultures for Irish to move into if they had to.

And thats what happened... irish moved to all those countries you mentioned...all modern Anglo saxon ethos countries... its ironic really. Youve Northern Irish Republicans hating the British ruling Northern Ireland and then they go to Australia and New Zealand and the day they go for their citizenship they are standing under the Union flag again fuming... Its a gas auld world.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ah take your pearl clutching elsewhere.

Wouldn't bother taking anything serious from someone who thinks most Irish university lecturers are communists if I were you.

Overheal

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Again this post is anti semitic. Comparing the holocaust and death of 6 million Jews to today's events in the middle East. 'Making the same mistakes as the Nazis made,' again this is an anti semitic trope and comes within the parameters of anti semitic posting. The mods here would want to wake up

I don't contend that this may be a 'trope' or an often flogged horse, but I don't see how it is precisely anti-semitic: Matters such as the holocaust and the Diaspora are a matter of fact, and they are a shared experience among the entire Jewry in some degree or another. There is a state of Israel, which recently codified into its base law that it is the Nation-State of the Jewish People. The State of Israel, now, is acting with partly (not wholly) the modus operandi of the ethnic cleansing of the Jewry from Europe, especially in Nazi Germany, where Jews were ushered between ghettos across military checkpoints and essentially lived under a form of Apartheid. That is not too dissimilar in numerous respects to the living status of Palestinians in the West Bank.

Arguably, however, it is not a polite accusation and it's borderline gaslighting only because "Holocaust" almost immediately invokes mental imagery of "The Final Solution" which was the last stage and industrial-scale mass execution of the Jewry (and other 'undesirables'), but it was far from everything they were subjected to. I would be careful to make the distinction. It is more constructive to simply refer to it as ethnic cleansing without bringing the H-word in, it's by definition both too broad and too narrow, it's a volatile term.

Tigerbaby

sickened (yet again and again) by the savagery on display in the current "bubble of trouble"

I have understanding of both sides; Israel from a post-WW2 point, and Palestine as those dislodged from their homes.

one salient question comes to mind;

why dont the Arab Nations assist the Palestininans militarily?

One remembers what CIA-supplied stinger missiles did to the Soviet Union.

Why no similar support from neighbouring states?

Mursi would have provided this, I'm sure, but was quickly given his P45.

Just a simple question.

end of the road

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Again this post is anti semitic. Comparing the holocaust and death of 6 million Jews to today's events in the middle East. 'Making the same mistakes as the Nazis made,' again this is an anti semitic trope and comes within the parameters of anti semitic posting. The mods here would want to wake up

you are once again incorrect.
comparing a country's established behaviour with the behaviour of a past regime is not antisemetic or islamaphobic.

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Robert Fisk was a good correspondent but probably the most pro Palestinian in world reporting outside of Al jazeera. So that tells you where most irish media are right now...they are about as biased against Israel as you can get. Its the universities in Ireland.. little more than left wing induction centres administered by communist professors...almost completely over run

you are once again, incorrect.
israel chooses to behave as it does, and correctly gets criticised for that behaviour, and the facts of such behaviour are reported and discussed.
that is not bias, but simple reporting and discussion of facts.

thomas 123

PeggyShippen wrote: »

And thats what happened... irish moved to all those countries you mentioned...all modern Anglo saxon ethos countries... its ironic really. Youve Northern Irish Republicans hating the British ruling Northern Ireland and then they go to Australia and New Zealand and the day they go for their citizenship they are standing under the Union flag again fuming... Its a gas auld world.

I find this anti semetic - disgusting - Ireland is a cesspit of it!

PeggyShippen

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Can I ask you where you live PS?

Why? It's a bit wierd you would ask that. Do you ask that of all posters. Are you thinking I couldn't be irish if I'm pro israel.