Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

Signore Fancy Pants

Tigerbaby wrote: »

sickened (yet again and again) by the savagery on display in the current "bubble of trouble"

I have understanding of both sides; Israel from a post-WW2 point, and Palestine as those dislodged from their homes.

one salient question comes to mind;

why dont the Arab Nations assist the Palestininans militarily?

One remembers what CIA-supplied stinger missiles did to the Soviet Union.

Why no similar support from neighbouring states?

Mursi would have provided this, I'm sure, but was quickly given his P45.

Just a simple question.

You're valid simple question, in reality has a very complex answer.

The answer is, this is how a regional conflict and significant de-stabilisation starts, nobody wants that. It's a geopolitical quagmire with deep rooted historical hangovers.

In reality, some Arab states have been trying to normalise relations with Israel, partly due to US influence.

While Palestinians are Arabs, they really don't have any soft or hard power...of any sort. They have the humanitarian angle but thats it. They won't be "returning favours" for diplomatic or military assistance.

The only reason that Iran facilitates funding, training and arming of Palestinian and Lebanese proxy militias, is because they can put immediate local pressure on Israel and act as a strategic aggressor for Iran.

If a regional conflict kicks off, it pulls in some major external actors, such as the US, Russia and China. In this context, the only loser is the Middle East....it's basically Syria on a larger basis. External actors may use this arena to settle scores. All 3 big actors want a strategic foothold of the ME. While Russia and the US have been militarily successful, China has been economically savvy.

This makes the ME a proxy battle ground and quite honestly, the threat of nuclear war (of sorts) is highest when nuclear actors operate outside of their own garden....not for a second do I think nuclear war is just around the corner but if it comes to pass that Israel are seriously under pressure, they may pull the trigger and Iran will respond in kind.

Hypothetically,

Lebanon are too weak.
Syria are too weak.
Jordan will side with Israel.
Egypt will side with Israel.
Gulf states will side with Israel, they don't want Iran getting too powerful.
Iraq has its own security issues.

Even Palestinian refugees in Lebanon and Syria are treated like sh1t.

markodaly

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

The only reason that Iran facilitates funding, training and arming of Palestinian and Lebanese proxy militias, is because they can put immediate local pressure on Israel and act as a strategic aggressor for Iran.

Do you think Iran funds Hamas and Hezbollah for the humanitarian angle, or are they using them as a wider geopolitical game?

Signore Fancy Pants

markodaly wrote: »

Do you think Iran funds Hamas and Hezbollah for the humanitarian angle, or are they using them as a wider geopolitical game?

Iran want regional hegemony, the only real actor with any sort of power to the west of Iran is Israel. Like, the IRGC al Quds force legitimately exists to fight proxy conflicts.

Iran want to control all the way to the Mediterranean Sea and establish the Tehran-Beirut strategic highway...something Israel are seriously concerned about as it gives Iran mobility. Iran already control the Syria/Iraq border crossing.

They are playing the long game, playing the "Shia" card and providing any state with military assistance against Israel....or anyone who gets in the way of their ambition.

Thus has zero to do with humanitarian issues, its completely strategic.

wes

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1395171434088091648?s=20

I think the President of South Africa know what they are talking about, when it comes to apartheid more than most.

Mapping Israeli occupation


I think a pretty good summary of the occupation. It should be noted the occupation is never peaceful, and is always violent, even when Palestinians are peaceful, they are still the victims of ongoing violence.

biko

The Palestinians have been offered their own state 5 times, and rejected it 5 times.

Thomasirl123

biko wrote: »

The Palestinians have been offered their own state 5 times, and rejected it 5 times.

Can't seem to find this info on the net, would you have any links?

Tigerbaby

Tigerbaby wrote: »

sickened (yet again and again) by the savagery on display in the current "bubble of trouble"

I have understanding of both sides; Israel from a post-WW2 point, and Palestine as those dislodged from their homes.

one salient question comes to mind;

why dont the Arab Nations assist the Palestininans militarily?

One remembers what CIA-supplied stinger missiles did to the Soviet Union.

Why no similar support from neighbouring states?

Mursi would have provided this, I'm sure, but was quickly given his P45.

Just a simple question.

The US provides a lot of financial support to neighbouring countries I believe, and in return expects them not to get involved. Similar to how Pakistan is kept relatively calm militarily by money and weapons suppled by the US.

wes

wes wrote: »

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1395054704086892545?s=20

Good to see changes in the US, hopefully we will see changes in European countries especially the likes of Germany, who seem to think making Palestinians pay for the crimes of their grand parents is somehow ok. Not to mention some disturbing Anti-Palestinian racism from German politicians and silencing of any Palestinians, and sheer insane spectacle of German politicians accusing anti-zionist Jewish activists of being anti-semites (seriously wtf is wrong with them).

Germany are over-compensating for WW2 and also the Munich massacre in 1972. They are desperately trying to avoid anti-semitism accusations.

biko

Thomasirl123 wrote: »

Can't seem to find this info on the net, would you have any links?

It's usually called the 2 state solution and started in 1937.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

thomas 123

biko wrote: »

It's usually called the 2 state solution and started in 1937.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

You should check out each map and see what was offered to the palastinians.

namloc1980

biko wrote: »

The Palestinians have been offered their own state 5 times, and rejected it 5 times.

If only that were true you might have a point.

I have a simple question that I struggle to answer. Why does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict arouse such emotion and why is there such animosity toward Israel, compared with, for example, the Turkish military offensive against the Kurds. In that case, it is an asymmetrical conflict where Turkey pummels the hell out of the displace Kurds, and violates international borders in the process.

What is it about Israel that makes people hate them so much more than Turkey?

For me, I personally don't care about Turkish/Kurdish situation. It is far removed and frankly the world is too full of strife to care about every last conflict. The reason I get involved on a thread like this one is because I feel Israel is held to an unfairly high standard for some reason, and I think critics of Israel don't appreciate the level of hostility and hatred that it has to live with day in and day out. If it wasn't for the massive anti-Israel sentiment I wouldn't care all that much about it any more than the next Middle Eastern story.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a simple question that I struggle to answer. Why does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict arouse such emotion and why is there such animosity toward Israel, compared with, for example, the Turkish military offensive against the Kurds. In that case, it is an asymmetrical conflict where Turkey pummels the hell out of the displace Kurds, and violates international borders in the process.

What is it about Israel that makes people hate them so much more than Turkey?

How do you know people hate them more than Turkey, or any other state? Have you asked everyone?

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have a simple question that I struggle to answer. Why does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict arouse such emotion and why is there such animosity toward Israel, compared with, for example, the Turkish military offensive against the Kurds. In that case, it is an asymmetrical conflict where Turkey pummels the hell out of the displace Kurds, and violates international borders in the process.

What is it about Israel that makes people hate them so much more than Turkey?

No.one "hates israel" I do hate thier treatment of the Palestinian people though. I also hate Zionists.

Same as I don't "hate" America, but I have always been very critical of thier foreign policy and how they bomb and kill civilians and also thier treatment of "prisoners" In Guantanamo.

Hande hoche!

Deleted User wrote: »

The US provides a lot of financial support to neighbouring countries I believe, and in return expects them not to get involved. Similar to how Pakistan is kept relatively calm militarily by money and weapons suppled by the US.

The US supplied a large amount of military equipment to Egypt. Now the Egyptians are trying to diversify a bit for instance the purchase of Rafale jets.

namloc1980

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

No.one "hates israel" I do hate thier treatment of the Palestinian people though. I also hate Zionists.

Same as I don't "hate" America, but I have always been very critical of thier foreign policy and how they bomb and kill civilians and also thier treatment of "prisoners" In Guantanamo.

It's just yet another attempt to play the anti-Semitic card by the back door.

jam_mac_jam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have a simple question that I struggle to answer. Why does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict arouse such emotion and why is there such animosity toward Israel, compared with, for example, the Turkish military offensive against the Kurds. In that case, it is an asymmetrical conflict where Turkey pummels the hell out of the displace Kurds, and violates international borders in the process.

What is it about Israel that makes people hate them so much more than Turkey?

Because Isreal is funded by the US. It's meant to be a good guy. It was founded as a result of terrible injustice in Europe.

Same reason the US gets more grief than China. I am not denying there is anti US sentiment and anti semitism involved but that's a lot of the reason. We expect more from so called democracies.

In Ireland we associate it with British rule so I think that's why we concentrate on it. Internationally it's US support and involvement.

And antisemitism.

TomSweeney

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a simple question that I struggle to answer. Why does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict arouse such emotion and why is there such animosity toward Israel, compared with, for example, the Turkish military offensive against the Kurds. In that case, it is an asymmetrical conflict where Turkey pummels the hell out of the displace Kurds, and violates international borders in the process.

What is it about Israel that makes people hate them so much more than Turkey?

For me, I personally don't care about Turkish/Kurdish situation. It is far removed and frankly the world is too full of strife to care about every last conflict. The reason I get involved on a thread like this one is because I feel Israel is held to an unfairly high standard for some reason, and I think critics of Israel don't appreciate the level of hostility and hatred that it has to live with day in and day out. If it wasn't for the massive anti-Israel sentiment I wouldn't care all that much about it any more than the next Middle Eastern story.

Very good explanations of that here :

https://markhumphrys.com/israel.html


A rock of sense.

thomas 123

TomSweeney wrote: »

Very good explanations of that here :

https://markhumphrys.com/israel.html


A rock of sense.

“

The Islamic world often complains about Israel. Israel can be criticised, but it is the only free country in the entire Middle East. It is a tiny beacon of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government in a vast Islamic sea of totalitarianism. Most of the Islamic world has no right to speak about it.


Their complaints are pure hypocrisy anyway

”

A crock of progandistic garabage more like.

How many half truths and straight out lies do you count in that first paragraph?

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

How do you know people hate them more than Turkey, or any other state? Have you asked everyone?

Yes I personally have gone to everyone with a clipboard and a pen, asked everyone their opinion and recorded the details on my database at home. The conclusion is that everyone hates Israel but is ambiguous about Turkey.

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's just yet another attempt to play the anti-Semitic card by the back door.

Can you explain it to me then? Please address my question in its entirety. Why do people care more about Palestinians than Kurds? And care more about Israel than Turkey? To me its as plain as day the difference in attitudes and passions. A lot of so-called liberals get all hot and bothered about Israel but turn to ice cold rational beings when speaking about Turkey.

thomas 123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes I personally have gone to everyone with a clipboard and a pen, asked everyone their opinion and recorded the details on my database at home. The conclusion is that everyone hates Israel but is ambiguous about Turkey.

You can’t make sweeping statements based on your own thoughts and say we all think the same. I’d be highly critical of Turkey, as I would be China and its treatment of certain people, and as i would be North Korea.

This thread is about Israel and palastine though.

thomas 123

thomas 123 wrote: »

“

The Islamic world often complains about Israel. Israel can be criticised, but it is the only free country in the entire Middle East. It is a tiny beacon of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government in a vast Islamic sea of totalitarianism. Most of the Islamic world has no right to speak about it.


Their complaints are pure hypocrisy anyway

”

A crock of progandistic garabage more like.

How many half truths and straight out lies do you count in that first paragraph?

Name one country in the Middle East that is better than Israel in terms of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government.

thomas 123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Name one country in the Middle East that is better than Israel in terms of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government.

That’s fair, but name another western country(1st world) where it would be acceptable to bomb the ****e out of a displaced people?

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Because Isreal is funded by the US. It's meant to be a good guy. It was founded as a result of terrible injustice in Europe.

Same reason the US gets more grief than China. I am not denying there is anti US sentiment and anti semitism involved but that's a lot of the reason. We expect more from so called democracies.

In Ireland we associate it with British rule so I think that's why we concentrate on it. Internationally it's US support and involvement.

And antisemitism.

That's a plausible explanation i.e. Israel is hated more because they are Jewish and they are a democracy and therefore held to a higher standard than the muslim theocracies in the region. It's consistent with the "soft bigotry of low expectations theory".

Housefree

Deleted User wrote: »

Name one country in the Middle East that is better than Israel in terms of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government.

Is this a joke, the place is an Apartheid state, name another Apartheid on the planet?

Israel is an apartheid state
https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/04/27/abusive-israeli-policies-constitute-crimes-apartheid-persecution .

Israels Human Rights organization declared it Apartheid
'A regime of Jewish supremacy from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea: This is apartheid'
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid an

Palestinians live under constant human rights abuses
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Ireland has a great Palestinian solidarity group
https://www.ipsc.ie/

SADAKA Mission: ‘To promote and maximise support for changes in Ireland’s domestic and foreign policies which advance the achievement of self-determination and other fundamental rights of the Palestinian people.’
https://www.sadaka.ie/

Make sure you check out the boycott campaign
https://bdsmovement.net/

thomas 123

thomas 123 wrote: »

That’s fair, but name another western country(1st world) where it would be acceptable to bomb the ****e out of a displaced people?

There is no such country in the West in a comparable situation to Israel, with rockets fired indiscriminately at its people routinely. If this was happening in other 1st world countries then it might be comparable.

Housefree

Housefree wrote: »

Is this a joke, the place is an Apartheid state, name another Apartheid on the planet?

Israel is an apartheid state
https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/04/27/abusive-israeli-policies-constitute-crimes-apartheid-persecution .

Israels Human Rights organization declared it Apartheid
'A regime of Jewish supremacy from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea: This is apartheid'
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid an

Palestinians live under constant human rights abuses
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Ireland has a great Palestinian solidarity group
https://www.ipsc.ie/

SADAKA Mission: ‘To promote and maximise support for changes in Ireland’s domestic and foreign policies which advance the achievement of self-determination and other fundamental rights of the Palestinian people.’
https://www.sadaka.ie/

Make sure you check out the boycott campaign
https://bdsmovement.net/

Name one country in the Middle East that is better than Israel in terms of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you explain it to me then? Please address my question in its entirety. Why do people care more about Palestinians than Kurds? And care more about Israel than Turkey? To me its as plain as day the difference in attitudes and passions. A lot of so-called liberals get all hot and bothered about Israel but turn to ice cold rational beings when speaking about Turkey.

Can you provide proof/examples of all these "liberals"? Or is this yet another made up occurrence in your head and projection?

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I personally have gone to everyone with a clipboard and a pen, asked everyone their opinion and recorded the details on my database at home. The conclusion is that everyone hates Israel but is ambiguous about Turkey.

Link to your report on this please. Thanks.