Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

Link to your report on this please. Thanks.

Jaysus. You don't really get sarcasm do you?

thomas 123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is no such country in the West in a comparable situation to Israel, with rockets fired indiscriminately at its people routinely. If this was happening in other 1st world countries then it might be comparable.

There is examples in recent history.

People claiming to be representing Ireland bombed the UK, thankfully the UK didn’t fly over Dublin, cork, or Limerick bombing houses back to the Stone Age.

That being said before then they did carry out acts of reprisal, luckily the west moved on. Clearly Israel has not.

Mad_maxx

Overheal wrote: »

Are there flaws in his argument?

he was a very brave journalist in my view , old school on the ground type

I was just correcting the poster , their description undervalued his pro palestinian position

The palestinians are treated appallingly by the Israelis and used as political pawns by much of the Arab world , horrible hopeless situation

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

Can you provide proof/examples of all these "liberals"? Or is this yet another made up occurrence in your head and projection?

This is my opinion based on social media posts, mainstream media coverage of protests. Outrage for Palestine is, in my opinion, greater that for Kurds. There is no scientific "proof" so I don't expect you to agree. It's subjective. And most sane people would agree with me, with the exception of those who have dug their trench and will ignore any evidence that contradicts their opinion.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

Name one country in the Middle East that is better than Israel in terms of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government.

This is a false pretence but as you brought it up:

democracy: 5 million people under Israels control have no say in Israel's democracy. No vote, no freedom to campaign/demonstrate,

human rights: see above. 5 million people displaced from their homes over generations and hemmed into ghettos in the West Bank and Gaza with massive restrictions on their rights and freedoms

free speech: LoL ask the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank what free speech is.

science: Palestinians can't even have their own airport or port as this is not permitted by their occupiers

religious tolerance: hundreds of mosques were destroyed by Israel in the years after it emerged. In the last few weeks Israel tried to prevent and limit Muslims from expressing their religion at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem - which ultimately contributed to the latest flare of violence.

accountable government: as above - 5 million people have no say in the government that ultimately occupies/rules them

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no such country in the West in a comparable situation to Israel, with rockets fired indiscriminately at its people routinely. If this was happening in other 1st world countries then it might be comparable.

How many other first world countries are actively committing genocide against their next door neighbour?

The Palestinians are merely defending themselves. Israel is to blame for dead Israelis. I shed no tears for dead settlers. By actively engaging in the invasion, they are combatants as far as I'm concerned.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

Jaysus. You don't really get sarcasm do you?

Nor do you :pac:

The point being you made massive broad assumptions based on nothing other than your own imagined scenarios.

Mimon

TomSweeney wrote: »

Very good explanations of that here :

https://markhumphrys.com/israel.html


A rock of sense.

Looks like a completely one sided agenda.

thomas 123

thomas 123 wrote: »

There is examples in recent history.

People claiming to be representing Ireland bombed the UK, thankfully the UK didn’t fly over Dublin, cork, or Limerick bombing houses back to the Stone Age.

That being said before then they did carry out acts of reprisal, luckily the west moved on. Clearly Israel has not.

The difference there is that the British had a military occupation on the ground in NI and most of the violence occurred there. the IRA weren't operating out of Limerick, Dublin or Cork and firing rockets into Belfast from the Republic.

Igotadose

seamus wrote: »

How many other first world countries are actively committing genocide against their next door neighbour?

The Palestinians are merely defending themselves. Israel is to blame for dead Israelis.

What offensive actions in Gaza by the Israel Government, prompted the most recent rocket attacks?

And, if it was Palestinians defending themselves, what's happened in the West Bank during this most recent period? Were there rockets launched as well?

Signore Fancy Pants

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can you explain it to me then? Please address my question in its entirety. Why do people care more about Palestinians than Kurds? And care more about Israel than Turkey? To me its as plain as day the difference in attitudes and passions. A lot of so-called liberals get all hot and bothered about Israel but turn to ice cold rational beings when speaking about Turkey.

Maybe people are not as au fait with the Turkey/Kurdish situation. You can't really be suggesting that people are just "anti Israel" because they don't have a greater awareness of Middle East geopolitics.

Are some people anti Israel, yes.
Do some view the Israeli/Palestine question similar to the Irish situation, yes.
Is everyone aware of ME complexities, no.

People don't have to equally care about everything, it's perfectly ok for people to have a specific opinion that does not transfer to similar situations.

Some people in Ireland religiously follow the English Premier League but give zero fuchs about the Legend of Ireland....but its the very same thing, football.

Nobody here can assume why "people" focus on one issue over another and it's a ridiculous suggestion to think the sole reason is anti semitic...thats just lazy debate imho.

Mad_maxx

PeggyShippen wrote: »

Robert Fisk was a good correspondent but probably the most pro Palestinian in world reporting outside of Al jazeera. So that tells you where most irish media are right now...they are about as biased against Israel as you can get. Its the universities in Ireland.. little more than left wing induction centres administered by communist professors...almost completely over run

he was indeed but he lived in Lebanon , he saw the 1982 massacre in the camps which were of course helped achieve by former israeli PM Ariel Sharon

Fisk was full of integrity , would be difficult to accuse him of having it all wrong on this conflict , he was never easy on the broader Arab world when it came to their leaders however , he took aim at the USA and UK but didnt pull punches when it came to various despots in the region , he was not a Western hater as many claimed he was

I was a fan of his overall though , less guilty of Hyperbole than John Pilger who came across plain anti western full stop , granted he did do great work on the vietnam conflict and subsequent cambodian conflicts

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

This is a false pretence but as you brought it up:

democracy: 5 million people under Israels control have no say in Israel's democracy. No vote, no freedom to campaign/demonstrate,

human rights: see above. 5 million people displaced from their homes over generations and hemmed into ghettos in the West Bank and Gaza with massive restrictions on their rights and freedoms

free speech: LoL ask the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank what free speech is.

science: Palestinians can't even have their own airport or port as this is not permitted by their occupiers

religious tolerance: hundreds of mosques were destroyed by Israel in the years after it emerged. In the last few weeks Israel tried to prevent and limit Muslims from expressing their religion at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem - which ultimately contributed to the latest flare of violence.

accountable government: as above - 5 million people have no say in the government that ultimately occupies/rules them

Those 5 million you are referring to are not part of Israel, nor do they want to be part of Israel. Interesting that you count them as Israeli subjects though when it suits.

You can criticise Israel all you want but it's still the number 1 country in the region in terms of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

This is my opinion based on social media posts, mainstream media coverage of protests. Outrage for Palestine is, in my opinion, greater that for Kurds. There is no scientific "proof" so I don't expect you to agree. It's subjective. And most sane people would agree with me, with the exception of those who have dug their trench and will ignore any evidence that contradicts their opinion.

Israel puts itself out there as a western style liberal open democracy with impeccable human rights and moral superiority. Turkey does not present such an image to the world. Therefore as Israel treats Palestinians like dirt and kills women and children in their scores, then yes that will attract more attention. Western liberal Democracies should hold themselves to a higher standard and should expect to be questioned when they clearly fail to live up to their own perception of themselves. This actually isn't difficult to understand but you are just trying to portray this as anti-Semitism, as every other pro-Israel poster has tried to do, with the aim to stifle debate and claim racism.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

Those 5 million you are referring to are not part of Israel, nor do they want to be part of Israel. Interesting that you count them as Israeli subjects though when it suits.

You can criticise Israel all you want but it's still the number 1 country in the region in terms of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government.

They are suffering under military occupation by Israel and have zero say in that. Interesting that you think they should have no rights. That says a lot about your perspective.

thomas 123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The difference there is that the British had a military occupation on the ground in NI and most of the violence occurred there. the IRA weren't operating out of Limerick, Dublin or Cork and firing rockets into Belfast from the Republic.

- Are all the houses demolished in the West Bank belonged to Hamas?
- Was Hamas firing rockets from the Mosqe in east Jerusalem?

BluePlanet

Deleted User wrote: »

Those 5 million you are referring to are not part of Israel, nor do they want to be part of Israel. Interesting that you count them as Israeli subjects though when it suits.

You can criticise Israel all you want but it's still the number 1 country in the region in terms of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government.

Off the top of my head, i'd say that Cyprus is better.

davydoc

namloc1980 wrote: »

Israel puts itself out there as a western style liberal open democracy with impeccable human rights and moral superiority. Turkey does not present such an image to the world. Therefore as Israel treats Palestinians like dirt and kills women and children in their scores then yes that will attract more attention. Western liberal Democracies should hold themselves to a higher standard and should expect to be questioned when they clearly fail to live up to their own perception of themselves. This actually isn't difficult to understand but you are just trying to portray this as anti-Semitism as every other pro-Israel poster has tried to do with the aim to stifle debate and claim racism.

The typical 'get out of jail free' card when the arguments about Israel's war crimes are mounting up. The evidence is clear for all to see, except those that don't WANT to ...... for whatever reason......

myfreespirit

namloc1980 wrote: »

This is a false pretence but as you brought it up:


religious tolerance: hundreds of mosques were destroyed by Israel in the years after it emerged. In the last few weeks Israel tried to prevent and limit Muslims from expressing their religion at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem - which ultimately contributed to the latest flare of violence.

accountable government: as above - 5 million people have no say in the government that ultimately occupies/rules them

I agree with most of your post regarding the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people, however I am unaware of the alleged destruction of "hundreds of mosques" by Israel.

Do you have independent sources verifying this?
Thanks.

thomas 123

TomSweeney wrote: »

Very good explanations of that here :

https://markhumphrys.com/israel.html


A rock of sense.

I’d urge anyone who missed this to read a bit of it.

Also note the thanks for those in agreement with it.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

Off the top of my head, i'd say that Cyprus is better.

LOL. Was that really off the top of your head or were you frantically trying to rack your brain to come up with an answer?

I think if you asked 100 people to name a Middle Eastern country, Cyprus would get a big X on Family Fortunes. But OK let's all make believe.

Mad_maxx

wes wrote: »

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1395054704086892545?s=20

Good to see changes in the US, hopefully we will see changes in European countries especially the likes of Germany, who seem to think making Palestinians pay for the crimes of their grand parents is somehow ok. Not to mention some disturbing Anti-Palestinian racism from German politicians and silencing of any Palestinians, and sheer insane spectacle of German politicians accusing anti-zionist Jewish activists of being anti-semites (seriously wtf is wrong with them).

the EU is effectively impotent to effect change in this conflict as Germany cannot say anything

France is the only one with any real clout , the UK is no longer in the EU but was always the most pro Israel nation on earth outside the USA anyway , the general public in the USA are fiercely pro Israel as well , not the case in the UK but at institutional level , Britain is deeply pro Israel

thomas 123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

LOL. Was that really off the top of your head or were you frantically trying to rack your brain to come up with an answer?

I think if you asked 100 people to name a Middle Eastern country, Cyprus would get a big X on Family Fortunes. But OK let's all make believe.

Well you are on here telling us how to think based on your experiences so why don’t we all just make statements based on nothing.

BluePlanet

Deleted User wrote: »

LOL. Was that really off the top of your head or were you frantically trying to rack your brain to come up with an answer?

I think if you asked 100 people to name a Middle Eastern country, Cyprus would get a big X on Family Fortunes. But OK let's all make believe.

It's 250km away from Israel, putting it closer than Iraq.
So yeah, it's in the region.
Maybe you should check a map?

seamus

Humphrys is a nutjob. He's a dogmatic libertarian who has fully bought into the cult of the US Republican party.

He pops up every now and again with some nonsense treatise on current events that can always be summed up as, "Everything the Republican party says is great and if you disagree, then you're a filthy lefty/communist/islamist".

Barney224

Isn't it a strange world we live in now! In Ireland we celebrate our heroes from the 1916 rising and struggles to gain independence from our British opressors. Yet, when the Palestinians (opressed for decades by Israel) try to do the same, they're called terrorists!

Signore Fancy Pants

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is no such country in the West in a comparable situation to Israel, with rockets fired indiscriminately at its people routinely. If this was happening in other 1st world countries then it might be comparable.

Your initial question could also be considered imbalanced. Israel is a westernised state among (largely Authoritarian) Arab nations, its not comparable.

I do understand your point completely though, Israel are more moderate.

namloc1980

myfreespirit wrote: »

I agree with most of your post regarding the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people, however I am unaware of the alleged destruction of "hundreds of mosques" by Israel.

Do you have independent sources verifying this?
Thanks.

Yeah the Nakba in 1948/49 when 700k Palestinians fled/were forcibly removed by Israel. Hundreds of Arab villages and towns were destroyed by Jewish militants including mosques in a mass ethnic cleansing.

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a plausible explanation i.e. Israel is hated more because they are Jewish and they are a democracy and therefore held to a higher standard than the muslim theocracies in the region. It's consistent with the "soft bigotry of low expectations theory".

most people are not stupid and its plain stupid to hate someone because they are jewish , jews are just people who have a particular religion , like many different groups of people , they also have a culture but its not all that different to other cultures , they often excel in law and finance but germans excel at engineering , as do japaneese

the anti semetic card is thrown around far too liberally and its of course very convenient for the state of Israel to use against critics , i dont agree with Richard Boyd Barrett on anything but I think he is correct about the behaviour of Israel and i dont believe he hates jews either

TomSweeney

thomas 123 wrote: »

I’d urge anyone who missed this to read a bit of it.

Also note the thanks for those in agreement with it.

What they have the wrong opinions do they ?