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Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    I'm confused. You're complaining that 5m people in Gaza/West Bank don't have voting rights in Israel. They don't live in Israel. So why should they have voting rights in a country that they don't live in?




    A country that controls them and their daily lives. Stop with the intellectual dishonesty please.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,846 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    seamus wrote: »
    Imagine being so naive to think that Israel withdrew from Gaza and left the region free to decide its own fate.

    It's not naive, it's disingenuous. The posters knows full well it was a strategic move by Ariel.
    He also knows his definition of terrorism is contradicted by his posts in support of terrorism by state and non state actors, but his bias will prevent him from admitting to these things. He will go back to blaming everything on Hamas, without acknowledging that nothing happens in a vaccum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,472 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Name one country in the Middle East that is better than Israel in terms of democracy, human rights, free speech, science, religious tolerance and accountable government.

    “And this is why it’s okay for us to murder over 50 children”


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,472 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    LOL. Was that really off the top of your head or were you frantically trying to rack your brain to come up with an answer?

    I think if you asked 100 people to name a Middle Eastern country, Cyprus would get a big X on Family Fortunes. But OK let's all make believe.
    Cyprus is a highly popular tourism destination for Irish and UK. Try again


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,472 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Cyprus is not in the middle East

    Actually it is

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East


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  • Registered Users Posts: 83,472 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Igotadose wrote: »
    O.K. so rockets forever right? Because when Israel withdrew in 2005 and let the Gazans decide their fate, they voted in Hamas and started launching rockets.

    Which didn't happen in the West Bank, oddly enough.

    Pause:

    They got their own airport? Seaport? Their own electricity? Running water?

    You’re leaving out a big part of the story by telling an actual lie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,472 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Free, democratic, tolerant and fair. They are also the best for free markets and science.

    “And that’s why it’s okay to kill the children”


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,101 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    What was the proximate cause of this wave of the conflict between Hamas and Israel?

    Hamas issued an ultimatum to Israel: withdraw Israeli forces from Sheikh Jarrah and the Temple Mount or face imminent attacks.



    In other words, the Israeli operation in Gaza would not have taken place had Hamas a) not issued this ultimatum and b) acted upon it when the 6pm deadline passed - firing hundreds of rockets onto Israeli territory. Hamas has no right to tell Israel what to do, let alone issue an ultimatum backed up by the threat of military action.

    Israel had to respond, and respond she did.

    This was an entirely preventable situation, but Hamas did their best to create the circumstances that led to the situation we now see.

    People can ignore this reality and point the finger of blame at Israel if they choose, but to choose to do so is to ignore the proximate casus belli of this wave of the conflict.


    issued after israely forces engaged in a hate crime by attacking people at the alaxa mosq and engaged in more ethnic cleansing annd theft.
    in otherwords the operation in gaza would likely have happened anyway.
    actually, hamas does have a right to tell israel what to do within the borders of the state hamas controls.
    and lets not forget that israel is miles outside it's actual borders.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    What was the proximate cause of this wave of the conflict between Hamas and Israel?

    Hamas issued an ultimatum to Israel: withdraw Israeli forces from Sheikh Jarrah and the Temple Mount or face imminent attacks.



    In other words, the Israeli operation in Gaza would not have taken place had Hamas a) not issued this ultimatum and b) acted upon it when the 6pm deadline passed - firing hundreds of rockets onto Israeli territory. Hamas has no right to tell Israel what to do, let alone issue an ultimatum backed up by the threat of military action.

    Israel had to respond, and respond she did.

    This was an entirely preventable situation, but Hamas did their best to create the circumstances that led to the situation we now see.

    People can ignore this reality and point the finger of blame at Israel if they choose, but to choose to do so is to ignore the proximate casus belli of this wave of the conflict.



    That's like saying the Polish could have welcomed Nazi Germany but instead Poland started a war.


    Israeli forces evicted Palestinian people. They protested. The protesters were hammered and the situation worsened. Hamas got involved. Israel escalated.
    They've knocked off the power, water and internet. Everything they destroy is excused by claiming Hamas were there.
    For a state blockaded, right next door and increasingly annexed by Israel, it's tough to buy into the idea that Gaza isn't rife with informers or Mosad agents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,686 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Possible cessation of Israeli operations after their security cabinet meeting later.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hamas doesn't give a damn about Palestinian lives.

    https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1395200947526197248


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Possible cessation of Israeli operations after their security cabinet meeting later.

    Some serious moves need to be made towards a long term peace. Otherwise we'll just go back to the status quo of land grabs on the West Bank and East Jerusalem, continued blockade of Gaza with Hamas etc just rearming for the next flare up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,472 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Hamas doesn't give a damn about Palestinian lives.

    https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1395200947526197248

    Sad.

    So does this make it okay for the IDF to slay children?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    Hamas doesn't give a damn about Palestinian lives.

    https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1395200947526197248

    Maybe they have something in common with the IDF so.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    Sad.

    So does this make it okay for the IDF to slay children?
    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Maybe they have something in common with the IDF so.

    This goes to show how far the rot has sunk.

    When Hamas does wrong, all the replies still focus on criticizing Israel.

    There is a total lack of perspective.

    Hamas can do no wrong, it seems. Where Hamas do wrong, Israel will still be considered the cause or comparitor.

    Replace Hamas with ISIS or Al Qaeda, and you can see how ridiculous this has become.


  • Registered Users Posts: 52,012 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    Hamas doesn't give a damn about Palestinian lives.

    https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1395200947526197248

    So now you’re worried about the Palestinians.
    Your faux concern is noted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    This goes to show how far the rot has sunk.

    When Hamas does wrong, all the replies still focus on criticizing Israel.

    There is a total lack of perspective.

    Hamas can do no wrong, it seems. Where Hamas do wrong, Israel will still be considered the cause or comparitor.

    Replace Hamas with ISIS or Al Qaeda, and you can see how ridiculous this has become.

    Just reflecting back your own lack of balance as you have failed to empathise once with the 65 murdered children in Gaza. Where's your empathy or even consideration that that might be wrong?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    This goes to show how far the rot has sunk.

    When Hamas does wrong, all the replies still focus on criticizing Israel.

    There is a total lack of perspective.

    Hamas can do no wrong, it seems. Where Hamas do wrong, Israel will still be considered the cause or comparitor.

    Replace Hamas with ISIS or Al Qaeda, and you can see how ridiculous this has become.


    ISIS or Al Qaeda have more in common with Israel than Hamas or the Palestinians, who you often confuse as one in the same, another similarity with ISIS. You need to shed this idea of Israel being a victim. It's not true.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Just reflecting back your own lack of balance as you have failed to empathise once with the 65 murdered children in Gaza. Where's your empathy or even consideration that that might be wrong?

    Have you empathised with the dead Israeli kids?

    All dead are regrettable before you ask.
    A Palestinian child is no more/no less value than an Israeli child.

    Problem for Hamas bodycount is the Israelis are better at defending their kids, though no lack of effort by Hamas to kill Israeli kids.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Israel and Hamas 'close to ceasefire deal'
    Sources familiar with truce talks have told the BBC that Israel has informed Egyptian mediators it will agree to end military action.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57180718


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Have you empathised with the dead Israeli kids?

    All dead are regrettable before you ask.
    A Palestinian child is no more/no less value than an Israeli child.

    Problem for Hamas bodycount is the Israelis are better at defending their kids, though no lack of effort by Hamas to kill Israeli kids.

    Yes I have said all causalities and deaths are a tragedy. Unfortunately the poster I am responding to has not had the same empathy for Palestinian civilians killed.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Yes I have said all causalities and deaths are a tragedy. Unfortunately the poster I am responding to has not had the same empathy for Palestinian civilians killed.

    So you condemn the killing of Israeli kids?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    So you condemn the killing of Israeli kids?

    Of course. Why wouldn't I? What a weird and bizarre question.

    You should direct the question to that other poster who has refused to condemn the killing of children and innocent civilians in Gaza by the IDF.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Of course. Why wouldn't I? What a weird and bizarre question.

    You should direct the question to that other poster who has refused to condemn the killing of children and innocent civilians in Gaza by the IDF.

    Just curious as you were pressing a poster for something similar.

    Time has thought me there's some strange thinking in this place with regard to "justified" killing of some people. Some would struggle to condemn the death of Israelis.

    Not you obviously.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    eskimohunt wrote: »
    Hamas doesn't give a damn about Palestinian lives.

    https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1395200947526197248

    The IDF couldn't give two damns about the people of Gaza. Their record of slaughter shows that


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Just curious as you were pressing a poster for something similar.

    Time has thought me there's some strange thinking in this place with regard to "justified" killing of some people. Some would struggle to condemn the death of Israelis.

    Not you obviously.

    Because that other poster has refused time and again to empathise with the dead children and civilians in Gaza and has essentially victim blamed them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    I have a simple question that I struggle to answer. Why does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict arouse such emotion and why is there such animosity toward Israel, compared with, for example, the Turkish military offensive against the Kurds.
    TomSweeney wrote: »
    Very good explanations of that here :

    https://markhumphrys.com/israel.html


    A rock of sense.

    Coffee through the nose moment!!!

    Here's a quote from that site that gets to the nub of Wojtek the Bear's question about "Why do people care so much about the Israel Palestine issue?"
    The western left does not understand the cause of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and for this and other reasons it has made a historic mistake in picking the wrong side.
    Step one should be to find out what is the cause of the conflict. It is not what the left says it is. It is something far darker and more depressing.


    First off, there's the immediate identification of the Straw Man, namely the "Western Left". This is an ill-defined group on which can be lumped blame for all the evils of the world. Just because, well, they're The Left and anybody who, in the eye of the accuser, meets the conditions for being of "The Left" can immediately be held accountable for everything from the Ukranian Genocide of the 1930s to the banning of wearing of sombreros by non-Mexicans to tolerance of mass rape (real or imaginary) by Islamic hordes now infesting European cities.

    Then there's the realisation one gets, after many years of discussions with Zionists whose interest in and knowledge of the Middle East is every bit as vicarious as one's own that there is an inherent and very obvious contradiction in their argument: "You are biased against Israel (and by implication all Jews) because you "don't understand the cause of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" but if in fact you DO make the effort to learn about it, well then you're biased because you single out Israel for scrutiny that you don't bring to bear on other unpleasant regimes.

    Don't know enough about Israel-Palestine? Anti-Semite!!!!
    Know too much about Israel-Palestine? ANTI-SEMITE!!!!

    Take your pick :rolleyes:

    Another reason that many people take a hostile approach to Israel, in my opinion, is that we are bombarded by pro-Israeli propaganda, mainly from the US but also by pro-Israeli commentators in the Irish media who, without a hint of irony claim that the vast bulk of their colleagues are hostile to Israel for the reasons given above.

    Here's the acid test: make a public statement condemning human rights abuses in any country in the world, East or West, Christian or Muslim, religious or secular.
    Will you be called a racist for doing so?

    When Bob Geldof returned his Freedom of Dublin award in protest at Aung San Suu Kyi having the same award and being silent on her country's treatment of the Rohinga, did anyone criticise him? Well, yes.
    Some called him a shallow posing rock star, seeking publicity by virtue signalling on an issue about which he knew very little. But did anyone accuse him of being motivated by racism? Not that I can remember.

    When people protest, as they do, about China's treatment of Uighurs are they called anti-oriental racists? If they are, I have never heard it.

    Open your mouth in protest at what Israel does to its Palestinian citizens and those whose land it occupies and you will have opprobrium rained on your head like a drone strike in Gaza. Specifically that you are an Anti-Semite which means an anti-Jewish RACIST. And people like the odious Mark Humphrys are surprised when people double down on their criticism of Israel faced with a barrage of propaganda, and frequently lies, from Israel and its supporters?

    If you want to win people over to the Israeli viewpoint (and Israel does have a case) then perhaps follow the sage advice not to "Piss down my neck and tell me it's raining"


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Because that other poster has refused time and again to empathise with the dead children and civilians in Gaza and has essentially victim blamed them.

    Poor reflection on them


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    Have you empathised with the dead Israeli kids?

    All dead are regrettable before you ask.
    A Palestinian child is no more/no less value than an Israeli child.

    Problem for Hamas bodycount is the Israelis are better at defending their kids, though no lack of effort by Hamas to kill Israeli kids.

    Gazan kids have no place to go. Israel has thrown away the Human rights book and ignores the Geneva and Hague Conventions

    Perhaps have a read of the following. Israel daily breaks the rules. Here is a small sample of her law breaking

    "It is unlawful under the Fourth Geneva Convention for an occupying power to transfer parts of its own population into the territory it occupies. This means that international humanitarian law prohibits the establishment of settlements, as these are a form of population transfer into occupied territory"

    Article 3.

    In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

    (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

    To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

    (a) violence to life and person, in particular, murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

    (b) taking of hostages;

    (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

    (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognised as indispensable by civilised peoples.

    (2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 83,472 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Because that other poster has refused time and again to empathise with the dead children and civilians in Gaza and has essentially victim blamed them.

    Specifically, their line of dialog has been 'Israel is more progressive than some of its neighbors' as though it excuses the lack of progress in perpetrating war crimes.


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