Israeli - Palestinian Conflict *Threadbans in OP*

What would you do if you were Hamas tonight?

If it would be me, I'd be looking back at the catastrophic failure of violence, and looking towards a path to peace. This would involve no rockets, no stone throwing etc.

They need to give up the violence because it will never win. On the contrary, any moves towards violence will only result in another bombardment in 6-7 years time. These things are almost like World Cup cycles at this stage.

If they truly cared about their people, they would be wise to try and lead with responsibility for Palestinian as well as Israeli lives.

Overheal

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

It's not for want of trying.

If Israel wanted to kill more Palestinians, they could.
If Hamas could kill more Israelis, they would- over 4000 unguided rockets aimed at Israeli population centres.

Of course.

But does that justify Israel's body count? Children and women? Targeting civilians and civilian property?

paulaa

cnocbui wrote: »

No it isn't, they have done it before: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/video-did-israel-target-gazas-ambulances



And if you have any doubts his actions don't reflect official policy - he was later promoted.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-shuffles-brass-promoting-new-intel-chief-and-censured-commander/

I remember several commanders in the IOF were afraid to leave Israel after their orgy of civilian deaths were relayed to the ICC.

Odhinn

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

It's not for want of trying.

If Israel wanted to kill more Palestinians, they could.
If Hamas could kill more Israelis, they would- over 4000 unguided rockets aimed at Israeli population centres.

Whats your opinion on Israels ongoing annexation of Palestinian land, building of settlements etc?

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

Precisely.

Of course, 200 civilian deaths is dreadful, and even worse when you consider that many of these deaths were preventable had Hamas not planted these military installations in these areas.

Proof of any of this? In this conflict? Evidence of Hamas at a tourniquet factory, a field hospital, a refugee camp?

Conversely, Israel could have - if they wanted and desired mass casualties - killed tens of thousands of people. It would be possible in a heartbeat, never mind 10-days.

But Israel didn't. And you have to ask the question: why not?

Because, and I've explained this to you repeatedly, Israel can only get away with as much as the United States has the stomach for.

Isreal does want to, though, and desires mass casualties. They target civilians all the time.

And the only answer is that Israel TRIED to minimize civilian deaths. Whilst it may not always be possible, that was and is their intention.

That much is abundantly clear.

Not abundantly clear at all, given their targeting of civilian homes, apartments, entire families.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

What would you do if you were Hamas tonight?

If it would be me, I'd be looking back at the catastrophic failure of violence, and looking towards a path to peace. This would involve no rockets, no stone throwing etc.

.................

They are blocked by the US veto from seeking justice via the UN.



The West Bank sees no rockets and yet settlement building and expansion goes ahead at the whim of the Israeli state.

FileNotFound

Odhinn wrote: »

They are blocked by the US veto from seeking justice via the UN.



The West Bank sees no rockets and yet settlement building and expansion goes ahead at the whim of the Israeli state.

They are also officially a terrorist organisation in the EU.

They did almost get that overturned a few years back I think.

cnocbui

eskimohunt wrote: »

Precisely.

Of course, 200 civilian deaths is dreadful, and even worse when you consider that many of these deaths were preventable had Hamas not planted these military installations in these areas.

Conversely, Israel could have - if they wanted and desired mass casualties - killed tens of thousands of people. It would be possible in a heartbeat, never mind 10-days.

But Israel didn't. And you have to ask the question: why not?

And the only answer is that Israel TRIED to minimize civilian deaths. Whilst it may not always be possible, that was and is their intention.

That much is abundantly clear.

The only reason the Israelis don't inflict higher casualties is because they are afraid of world opinion.

Israel cannot afford to stand against the entire world and be denounced as the aggressor.
Moshe Dayan

kildare lad

Odhinn wrote: »

They are blocked by the US veto from seeking justice via the UN.



The West Bank sees no rockets and yet settlement building and expansion goes ahead at the whim of the Israeli state.

For such a relatively small population , Israel seems to get away with blatant murder and robbery of land . Just goes to show you how much power the Jewish lobby have in America

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

They are blocked by the US veto from seeking justice via the UN.



The West Bank sees no rockets and yet settlement building and expansion goes ahead at the whim of the Israeli state.

If they gave up their arms an committed to purely peaceful means, there's no way the US could veto them forever. The world would have no reason not to support them. As it stands now, the ugly violence they are involved with does damage to:
a) their own people/infrastructure, by inviting retribution from Israel
b) the public relations of their cause. Even if they feel they have a righteous cause, nobody neutral can support a group that fires rockets hoping for maximum civilian casualties

Odhinn

kildare lad wrote: »

For such a relatively small population , Israel seems to get away with blatant murder and robbery of land . Just goes to show you how much power the Jewish have in America

I suggest that the US believes its in its interest to back Israel and a right wing pro Israel grouping take full advantage of that, nothing to do with "power the Jewish have".

paulaa

Deleted User wrote: »

What would you do if you were Hamas tonight?

If it would be me, I'd be looking back at the catastrophic failure of violence, and looking towards a path to peace. This would involve no rockets, no stone throwing etc.

They need to give up the violence because it will never win. On the contrary, any moves towards violence will only result in another bombardment in 6-7 years time. These things are almost like World Cup cycles at this stage.

If they truly cared about their people, they would be wise to try and lead with responsibility for Palestinian as well as Israeli lives.

Do you seriously think Israel will allow the Gazans and the Palestinians living in the West Bank to have peace ? They are not finished stealing from them yet.
All this war and unrest even outside Israel and Palestine is a part of the 'Greater Israel' plan or the The Oded Yinon Plan as it is called

https://youtu.be/Ibr2htXADag

kildare lad

Odhinn wrote: »

I suggest that the US believes its in its interest to back Israel and a right wing pro Israel grouping take full advantage of that, nothing to do with "power the Jewish have".

Why though , there must be a reason they back them so much and give them billions in military aid every year.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

If they gave up their arms an committed to purely peaceful means, there's no way the US could veto them

forever.

Why not? The US supported Apartheid South Africa for decades.

Deleted User wrote: »

The world would have no reason not to support them.

The world (mostly pro-palestinian) can be vetoed by the US, or any permanent member of the UNSC.

Deleted User wrote: »

As it stands now, the ugly violence they are involved with does damage to:
a) their own people/infrastructure, by inviting retribution from Israel
b) the public relations of their cause. Even if they feel they have a righteous cause, nobody neutral can support a group that fires rockets hoping for maximum civilian casualties

Fatah in the WestBank don't indulge in "ugly violence" yet are subjected to just that by Israel, with ongoing annexation of Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Odhinn

kildare lad wrote: »

Why though , there must be a reason they back them so much and give them billions in military aid every year.

They believe the state of Israel is a useful ally. They - in the past - supported Apartheid South Africa, apartheid Rhodesia, various dictatorships in Latin America despite the appalling activities of those regimes.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

They believe the state of Israel is a useful ally. They - in the past - supported Apartheid South Africa, apartheid Rhodesia, various dictatorships in Latin America despite the appalling activities of those regimes.

Diplomacy and foreign affairs is far more complex than, "We only support the Good Guys". That's a very naive view of how complex foreign affairs operates.

The world doesn't operate on such a childish binary; it's not a SuperMan movie.

Overheal

eskimohunt wrote: »

Diplomacy and foreign affairs is far more complex than, "We only support the Good Guys". That's a very naive view of how complex foreign affairs operates.

The world doesn't operate on such a childish binary; it's not a SuperMan movie.

So Israel is not the most ethical military regime in the world? :rolleyes:

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

Why not? The US supported Apartheid South Africa for decades.








The world (mostly pro-palestinian) can be vetoed by the US, or any permanent member of the UNSC.








Fatah in the WestBank don't indulge in "ugly violence" yet are subjected to just that by Israel, with ongoing annexation of Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Because if we are led to believe that Israel are racist nazi bullies who want perpetual war, then surely giving them a reason for it is not in the Palestinians best interests. Starve the beast. Show the world that you will not stoop to the level of a monster. Show that you are virtuous and peaceful. It's the only hope that I can see.

Continuing on the present path will only lead to more death and destruction. Time to try something new.

batman75

Interesting editorial in the Guardian suggesting that some political figures and the public, even young Jews in America are opening their eyes to the oppressive way Israel treats Palestinians. Hopefully this signals the start of a more realistic engagement by America in how it deals with Israel.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

Because if we are led to believe that Israel are racist nazi bullies who want perpetual war, then surely giving them a reason for it is not in the Palestinians best interests. Starve the beast. Show the world that you will not stoop to the level of a monster. Show that you are virtuous and peaceful. It's the only hope that I can see..

Again, this is a bit of nonsense. Israel would prefer to peace to war because that would better facilitate its annexation of Palestinian land.

Deleted User wrote: »

Continuing on the present path will only lead to more death and destruction. Time to try something new.

As pointed out before, Fatah in the West Bank show no resistance to Israeli aggresions and yet the settlements expand and lands annexed.

batman75

Odhinn wrote: »

They believe the state of Israel is a useful ally. They - in the past - supported Apartheid South Africa, apartheid Rhodesia, various dictatorships in Latin America despite the appalling activities of those regimes.

Didn't they support Saddam against the Iranians during the war between Iran and Iraq?

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

Again, this is a bit of nonsense. Israel would prefer to peace to war because that would better facilitate its annexation of Palestinian land.






As pointed out before, Fatah in the West Bank show no resistance to Israeli aggresions and yet the settlements expand and lands annexed.

Yes but this position essentiall condones rocket attacks on civilians in Israel, which is simply immoral.

Which is more important, people being displaced from their homes or people being obliterated by rockets? Surely the goal is to save as many lives as possible.

batman75

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but this position essentiall condones rocket attacks on civilians in Israel, which is simply immoral.

Which is more important, people being displaced from their homes or people being obliterated by rockets? Surely the goal is to save as many lives as possible.

If people weren't being illegal kicked out of their homes their mightn't be rockets showered on Israel.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but this position essentiall condones rocket attacks on civilians in Israel, which is simply immoral.

Which is more important, people being displaced from their homes or people being obliterated by rockets? Surely the goal is to save as many lives as possible.

So you'd have the Palestinians march peacefully into disintegration and ignore the deeds of the Israeli government? If Israel is allowed "defend" itself, why not the same for the Palestinians?

cnocbui

paulaa wrote: »

Do you seriously think Israel will allow the Gazans and the Palestinians living in the West Bank to have peace ? They are not finished stealing from them yet.
All this war and unrest even outside Israel and Palestine is a part of the 'Greater Israel' plan or the The Oded Yinon Plan as it is called

https://youtu.be/Ibr2htXADag

Speaking of Israelis stealing from Palestinians, it's the very foundation and guiding principle behind the state of Israel: https://israelpalestinenews.org/even...ieves-haaretz/

I knew a Palestinian, a businessman. He was one of several children scattered throughout the world. His parents and family were wealthy and owned a large house, and farm in Palestine with extensive orchards. A multi-generational existence extending well back in time.

Then along came the unspeakable British and their Balfour declaration. Zionists arrived and drove his family out of their valuable property, seizing it without compensatory payment, though many ardent zionists believe that never happened and they always paid for what they stole, something historians have proven was often not the case.

Not only did the zionists steal everything his family owned in terms of property, they also took control of the banks and stole all of their savings as well. the entire family was forced to flee their ancestral homeland with little more than the shirts on their backs.

And you have certain posters here saying, just turn the other cheek, don't make waves, you deserve all you get for being so aggressive.

Five Eighth

I often wonder whether any of Israel's defenders have any idea of what it is like to live their life on a day-to-day basis as a second-class citizens? What it might be like to have their homes taken and given to new arrivals? Seeing tracts of land being developed for others? Watching settlements being erected where you and those that came before you once lived? Having your lives controlled on a micro-level? I've noticed that when these matters are raised on this thread, the pro-Israel contributors prefer not to address these issues but to highlight how Israel is under continuous threat from Hamas, Hezbollah and others. Anyone who criticizes the actions of the Israel government is branded 'left-wing' and 'anti-semitic'.

Resistance does not happen in a vacuum. As Martin Luther King said "A riot is the language of the unheard."

wes

Looks like a ceasefire will commence in a couple of hours. Good news.

It should be noted that Gaza will still be under siege, the occupation will not have ended, ethnic cleansing will continue, and that apartheid in Israel is not finished.

In other news an AP reporter was fired:
https://twitter.com/suhaunah/status/1395479074450022401?s=20

for being in a Student for Justice in Palestine in college, before her employment. Supporting Palestinians human rights is a fireable offense for the cowardly and racist AP, whose offices were bombed by Israel mere days ago.

Odhinn

batman75 wrote: »

Didn't they support Saddam against the Iranians during the war between Iran and Iraq?

They did indeed, regardless of the Anfal massacres of the Kurds etc.

tayto lover

wes wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1395447708798832642?s=20

Blocking medics, and even attacking them, a new low for the IDF. I can only see this denial of medical personnel as further evidence that Israel intent is genocide.

These are war crimes and should be called out by any right thinking person.
But you’ll have the usual deniers defending the IDF.

Overheal

wes wrote: »

Looks like a ceasefire will commence in a couple of hours. Good news.

It should be noted that Gaza will still be under siege, the occupation will not have ended, ethnic cleansing will continue, and that apartheid in Israel is not finished.

In other news an AP reporter was fired:
https://twitter.com/suhaunah/status/1395479074450022401?s=20

for being in a Student for Justice in Palestine in college, before her employment. Supporting Palestinians human rights is a fireable offense for the cowardly and racist AP, whose offices were bombed by Israel mere days ago.

Sure they're fiercely hypocritical about cancel culture, why not ruin a young woman's life, that's the whole brand.